The "We" in Ephesians

[MatthewG]

I don't know what your point is @MA2444.


I don't believe Paul is speaking to us, when he is writing to the people in Ephesians, when he is concerning his "we" in the introduction.

 

[MatthewG]

Anyone can take scriptures and apply them and make it as if it is speaking to us, and systematically change what is going on.

We are talking about Ephesians 1:1-13 specifically, and Paul is writing concerning the Apostles themselves, or the nation of Israel brining forth the invitation to the Gentiles.


I don't see what is wrong with seeing this as true.


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


We are still given the Holy spirit today, and part of the body of Christ, (the second fruits of the first church which was to be holy, without spot, and blemish) cause I believe that marriage took place a long time ago.

 

[MatthewG]

 

[MA2444]

I don't know what your point is @MA2444.


I don't believe Paul is speaking to us, when he is writing to the people in Ephesians, when he is concerning his "we" in the introduction.

The point is that you asked a question in this post:

It’s Paul writing to a certain group. It couldn’t be us.

Commonly people assume its us.

Paul is speaking of his people, though the Jews right?

And this was my answer to that question:

You've probably read this before but the answer to your question is in

Romans 11:17-24
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?.../KJV

So even though Paul may speak to certain groups of people in other writings, none of it negates Romans 11 and if we are in Him and born again then we are grafted into the olive tree, so He is speaking to us also..../KJV

So my points, that since we are no in Christ, we have been grafted into the Olive tree which is the Jews. So yes, He is talking to you and to all gentiles under the new Covenant.

 

[MatthewG]

The point is that you asked a question in this post:


And this was my answer to that question:



So my points, that since we are no in Christ, we have been grafted into the Olive tree which is the Jews. So yes, He is talking to you and to all gentiles under the new Covenant.

Well, you have to distinguish what’s being said in the letter itself unless you don’t care to do that. I’m not gonna change my stance on what I’ve already shared concerning the message which Paul is writing concerning “we” meaning the apostles whom were in Christ before the gentiles were. They were the first, and the gentiles were the last to get the invitation.

 

[MA2444]

Anyone can take scriptures and apply them and make it as if it is speaking to us, and systematically change what is going on.

We are talking about Ephesians 1:1-13 specifically, and Paul is writing concerning the Apostles themselves, or the nation of Israel brining forth the invitation to the Gentiles.


I don't see what is wrong with seeing this as true.

What I see in your thinking that is wrong is that you do not take into account of what happens to you when you are born again and are in Christ.

Or are you saying that gentiles do not get grafted into the Olive tree?

All believers who abide in Christ become the Lord's children and when we get to heaven, there wont be children and step children! It's all one big happy Family!

This is what Lambano was telling you. Are you in Christ? It's a simple yes or no.

 

[MA2444]

concerning “we” meaning the apostles whom were in Christ before the gentiles were. They were the first, and the gentiles were the last to get the invitation.

It doesn't matter who was born first or afterwards. Are they in Christ? As soon as you are it applies to you too!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ephesians 1:11


Is this speaking of the Jewish people? When Paul stated "we"? Shortly after he starts using "you." Wouldn't that be for the Gentiles?

Paul wants the reader to view verses 11, 12, and 13 as a cohesive concept. Verse 11 presents the main idea, verse 12 applies this idea to the Jewish people, and verse 13 applies it to the Gentiles.

 

[MatthewG]

Paul wants the reader to view verses 11, 12, and 13 as a cohesive concept. Verse 11 presents the main idea, verse 12 applies this idea to the Jewish people, and verse 13 applies it to the Gentiles.

I can’t dictate what Paul wants people to think. All I can do is consider what is presented. Again we have to consider what he is saying, in this introduction. What people think he is saying varies.

 

[MatthewG]

@MA2444 those are things you gotta deal with, when it comes to studying. If things don’t matter then they simply don’t matter. That’s nothing between me and you. I believe what Paul is sharing with this audience does matter.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It’s Paul writing to a certain group. It couldn’t be us.

Commonly people assume its us.

Paul is speaking of his people, though the Jews right?

The framework of Ephesians Chapter 1 can be a bit confusing. For one thing, our English translations seem to have missed Paul's point in verse 10. The translation of "ta panta" as "all things" is typical and not exactly wrong. But in verse 10, the subject is people rather than things. So, it should read "all people" instead. The point is that God has been orchestrating history (managing the times) to bring both Jews and Gentiles under Christ.

 

[MatthewG]

Don’t know @CadyandZoe, all I know is the direction change by verse 13. Switching from “we” “us” to “you.” I’m sure the contents themselves to say an individual who never read the letter itself would be perplexed, but we do have an audience concerning the first couple verses.

 

[Lambano]

I’ve already stated what I’ve arrived at man. Don’t do that to me.

If you won't change, then I'll switch to your side, starting with "Just as" in verse 4.

So, in verse 4, God chose the Jewish nation in Him (presumably Messiah) to be holy blameless. Okay; being a holy possession is definitely consistent with the OT mission statement for God's people in Deuteronomy and elsewhere. How does the "in Him" fit? Messiah as the fulfillment of the Jewish purpose? I'd buy that.

In verse 5, the Jewish nation was predestined in Christ to adoption as children. (All of them? How's that working for them?) If we take the "Messiah as the fulfillment of Jewish purpose" point of view, does that make Messiah the adopted Son of God. Uh oh.

In verse 6, God lavishly bestows grace on the Jewish nation in the Beloved, presumed to be Messiah.

In verse 7, the Jewish nation has redemption in Messiah's blood and forgiveness in Messiah.

In verse 9, God revealed the mystery of His will to the Jewish nation. (I remember a JDL spokesman saying sardonically that Jews wrote Bible so that Baptists could read it.) Okay, that works

In verse 10, the God's purpose is to sum up all things in Messiah.

In verse 11, the Jewish nation has received their predestined inheritance in Messiah.

In verse 12, the Jews who hope in Christ give praise to God.

In verse 13, you (gentile) Ephesians also become part of the redeemed. And so on.

Okay. It almost works.

 

[Johann]

The framework of Ephesians Chapter 1 can be a bit confusing. For one thing, our English translations seem to have missed Paul's point in verse 10. The translation of "ta panta" as "all things" is typical and not exactly wrong. But in verse 10, the subject is people rather than things. So, it should read "all people" instead. The point is that God has been orchestrating history (managing the times) to bring both Jews and Gentiles under Christ.

Were they placed in Christ before the foundation of the world, or at the moment of believing in Christ Jesus?

He might gather together in one = to sum up (literally: "head up"). Greek. anakephalaioomai. See Rom_13:9. The verb in this place being in Mid. voice is reflexive, implying "for Himself" (compare verses: Eph_1:5, Eph_1:9).

The compounded preposition ἀνά signifies again, pointing back to a previous condition where no separation existed. All things. All created beings and things; not limited to intelligent beings. Compare Rom_8:21; 1Co_15:28.


J.

 

[MatthewG]

Gods grace is amazing! :)

 

[MatthewG]

If you won't change, then I'll switch to your side, starting with "Just as" in verse 4.

So, in verse 4, God chose the Jewish nation in Him (presumably Messiah) to be holy blameless. Okay; being a holy possession is definitely consistent with the OT mission statement for God's people in Deuteronomy and elsewhere. How does the "in Him" fit? Messiah as the fulfillment of the Jewish purpose? I'd buy that.

In verse 5, the Jewish nation was predestined in Christ to adoption as children. (All of them? How's that working for them?) If we take the "Messiah as the fulfillment of Jewish purpose" point of view, does that make Messiah the adopted Son of God. Uh oh.

In verse 6, God lavishly bestows grace on the Jewish nation in the Beloved, presumed to be Messiah.

In verse 7, the Jewish nation has redemption in Messiah's blood and forgiveness in Messiah.

In verse 9, God revealed the mystery of His will to the Jewish nation. (I remember a JDL spokesman saying sardonically that Jews wrote Bible so that Baptists could read it.) Okay, that works

In verse 10, the God's purpose is to sum up all things in Messiah.

In verse 11, the Jewish nation has received their predestined inheritance in Messiah.

In verse 12, the Jews who hope in Christ give praise to God.

In verse 13, you (gentile) Ephesians also become part of the redeemed. And so on.

Okay. It almost works.

Good job.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can’t dictate what Paul wants people to think. All I can do is consider what is presented.

I'm not dictating what Paul want's people to think. He did that himself.

Again we have to consider what he is saying, in this introduction. What people think he is saying varies.

Peter thinks Paul is hard to understand. After comparing their writing styles, we can see why. Peter and James tend to present ideas as spokes on a wheel, whereby their statements all point to a central theme from different angles. Paul, on the other hand, presents ideas as arguments, beginning with a premise or a thesis followed by evidence or reasons to support his claim.

A pronoun gains its meaning from the noun it replaces, known as the antecedent, or the subject under discussion. In the initial section of chapter one, the use of first-person plural pronouns such as "we" refers back to the opening statements presented in verses 1 and 2. This establishes a collective identity among the speaker and his audience.

As we move to verse 10, the apostle Paul begins a significant shift in his language by distinguishing between "we" and "you." This distinction emphasizes the inclusion of the Ephesians, indicating that they, too, are part of the community that will inherit the promised blessings of eternal life. By making this separation, Paul not only affirms the shared faith of the readers but also underscores the universal scope of salvation, extending it to all who believe.

 

[MatthewG]

I'm not dictating what Paul want's people to think. He did that himself.

Didn’t say you were. I’m just saying I can not.

Peter thinks Paul is hard to understand. After comparing their writing styles, we can see why. Peter and James tend to present ideas as spokes on a wheel, whereby their statements all point to a central theme from different angles. Paul, on the other hand, presents ideas as arguments, beginning with a premise or a thesis followed by evidence or reasons to support his claim.

A pronoun gains its meaning from the noun it replaces, known as the antecedent, or the subject under discussion. In the initial section of chapter one, the use of first-person plural pronouns such as "we" refers back to the opening statements presented in verses 1 and 2. This establishes a collective identity among the speaker and his audience.

As we move to verse 10, the apostle Paul begins a significant shift in his language by distinguishing between "we" and "you." This distinction emphasizes the inclusion of the Ephesians, indicating that they, too, are part of the community that will inherit the promised blessings of eternal life. By making this separation, Paul not only affirms the shared faith of the readers but also underscores the universal scope of salvation, extending it to all who believe.

I’m not super educated man. I’m thankful that yes everyone in the world today, is receiving invitation to look to Yahavah, and look to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and become born again, and continue in faith and love.

That is amazing. Thanks man.

 

[Johann]

If you won't change, then I'll switch to your side, starting with "Just as" in verse 4.

So, in verse 4, God chose the Jewish nation in Him (presumably Messiah) to be holy blameless. Okay; being a holy possession is definitely consistent with the OT mission statement for God's people in Deuteronomy and elsewhere. How does the "in Him" fit? Messiah as the fulfillment of the Jewish purpose? I'd buy that.

In verse 5, the Jewish nation was predestined in Christ to adoption as children. (All of them? How's that working for them?) If we take the "Messiah as the fulfillment of Jewish purpose" point of view, does that make Messiah the adopted Son of God. Uh oh.

In verse 6, God lavishly bestows grace on the Jewish nation in the Beloved, presumed to be Messiah.

In verse 7, the Jewish nation has redemption in Messiah's blood and forgiveness in Messiah.

In verse 9, God revealed the mystery of His will to the Jewish nation. (I remember a JDL spokesman saying sardonically that Jews wrote Bible so that Baptists could read it.) Okay, that works

In verse 10, the God's purpose is to sum up all things in Messiah.

In verse 11, the Jewish nation has received their predestined inheritance in Messiah.

In verse 12, the Jews who hope in Christ give praise to God.

In verse 13, you (gentile) Ephesians also become part of the redeemed. And so on.

Okay. It almost works.

He hath chosen us - The word “us” here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities. It includes Paul himself as one of the “chosen,” and those whom he addressed - the mingled Gentile and Jewish converts in Ephesus.

That it must refer to individuals is clear. Of no “community” as such can it be said that it was” chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy.” It is not true of the Gentile world as such, nor of anyone of the nations making up the Gentile world. The word rendered here “hath chosen” - ἐξελέξατο exelexato - is from a word meaning “to lay out together,” (Passow,) to choose out, to select.

It has the idea of making a choice or selection among different objects or things. It is applied to things, as in Luk_10:42, Mary “hath chosen that good part;” - she has made a choice, or selection of it, or has shown a “preference” for it. 1Co_1:27, “God hath chosen the foolish things of the world;” he has preferred to make use of them among all the conceivable things which might have been employed” to confound the wise;” compare Act_1:2, Act_1:24; Act_6:5; Act_15:22, Act_15:25.

It denotes “to choose out,” with the accessary idea of kindness or favor. Mrk_13:20, “for the elect’s sake whom “he hath chosen,” he hath shortened the days.” Jhn_13:18, “I know whom I have chosen.” Act_13:17, “the God of this people of Israel “chose” our fathers;” that is, selected them from the nations to accomplish important purposes.

This is evidently the sense of the word in the passage before us. It means to make a selection or choice with the idea of favor or love, and with a view to impart important benefits on those whom be chose. The idea of making some “distinction” between them and others, is essential to a correct understanding of the passage - since there can be no choice where no such distinction is made.

He who chooses one out of many things makes a difference, or evinces a preference - no matter what the ground or reason of his doing it may be. Whether this refers to communities and nations, or to individuals, still it is true that a distinction is made or a preference given of one over another. It may be added, that so far as “justice” is concerned, it makes no difference whether it refers to nations or to individuals. If there is injustice in choosing an “individual” to favor, there cannot be less in choosing a “nation” - for a nation is nothing but a collection of individuals. Every objection which has ever been made to the doctrine of election as it relates to individuals, will apply with equal force to the choice of a nation to unique privileges. If a distinction is made, it may be made with as much propriety in respect to individuals as to nations.


RECIPIENTS
A. Many manuscripts (Chester Beatty Papyri, P46; Sinaiticus, א; Vaticanus, B; Origen's Greek text, and Tertullain's Greek text) omit "in Ephesus" in Eph_1:1. The RSV and Williams translations omit the phrase.

B. The Greek grammar of Eph_1:1 can accommodate a place name. Possibly, as a circular letter, the place name of the church was left blank so it could be supplied when read aloud to the churches. This might explain the phrase in Col_4:15-16, "letter from the Laodiceans," which was possibly the Book of Ephesians (Marcion called Ephesians by the title "letter to the Laodiceans").

C. Ephesians was written primarily to Gentiles, Eph_2:1; Eph_4:17, whom Paul had not personally met, Eph_1:15; Eph_3:2. The churches in the Lycus River Valley (Laodicea, Hierapolis, and Colossae) were started, not by Paul, but by Epaphras (Col_1:7; Col_4:12; Phm_1:23).

J.

 

[MatthewG]

C. Ephesians was written primarily to Gentiles, Eph_2:1; Eph_4:17, whom Paul had not personally met, Eph_1:15; Eph_3:2. The churches in the Lycus River Valley (Laodicea, Hierapolis, and Colossae) were started, not by Paul, but by Epaphras (Col_1:7; Col_4:12; Phm_1:23).

If You never met some people it seems you would want to fill them in on what’s up.