St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you think he is seeing a good return on his investment?
I would guess that he already knows he is bankrupt.
In that case he might consider being restored and redeemed.
Does he have a better option?
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I would guess that he already knows he is bankrupt.
In that case he might consider being restored and redeemed.
Does he have a better option?
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
When one has irrevocably decided, one has irrevocably decided.
Madness by its very nature destroys everything around itself including the self, be it devils or men. This is how sin and rebellion will end.
Consider the various oppressive rulers throughout history....consider Hitlers rise and demise. So it will be globally.....and God stands by weeping with the words, 'Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not; behold your house is left to you desolate.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
He doesn't seem to be showing any signs of slowing down or stopping.
And the Bible seems to strongly indicate that he's not coming around to a faith-and-love way of thinking.
I honestly never thought I'd find myself in a position to be arguing this point but, personally, I'm nowhere near wrapping my head around the possibility of the devil being saved.
You're definitely hoping above my pay grade.
:)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
There is an assumption that the wicked want to come over to the side of God (be saved). I think this view falls short of understanding that God's Spirit which has constantly strived to bring awareness to all, yet those deemed wicked have persistently dismissed these promptings to the point where they no longer hear them.
They have through intentional practiced resistance seared their conscience to the call for life and have placed themselves in a position where all the values opposed to life are loved.
It is clear that any desire that they might have for eternal life would be unequivocally on their terms. It would be like letting the fox into the hen house.
Well said. As one wise lady said...
The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah, "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him." "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him; for the reward of his hands shall be given him." [Isaiah 3:10, 11.] "Though a sinner do evil a hundred times," says the wise man, "and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him; but it shall not be well with the wicked." [Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13.] And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds;" "tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." [Romans 2:5, 6, 9.]
"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, which is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." [Ephesians 5:5, Revised Version.] "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." [Hebrews 12:14.] "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." [Revelation 22:14, 15.]
God has given to men a declaration of his character, and of his method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." [Exodus 34:6, 7.] "All the wicked will he destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off." [Psalm 145:20; 37:38.] The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being.
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of his hands shall love him because he is worthy of love. He would have them obey him because they have an intelligent appreciation of his wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love him because they are drawn toward him in admiration of his attributes. GC88 540.4 - GC88 541.3
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,—every soul filled with love; every countenance beaming with joy; enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb; and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,—could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb?—No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. GC88 542.3
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
That would be walking in the hate of satan.
Love (God) would warn others of danger to give them opportunity to escape or otherwise avoid the danger.
Hate (satan) would decided to not warn them and let them be damaged or destroyed and be all good with it.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
There is something to that.
But what do we imagine that's God's ultimate plan (Logos) was in the beginning?
Did he create a universe, and humankind in his own image, only to stand by
and watch it all implode while doing nothing to redeem it?
What will the end game be?
Will there be an ultimate triumph of grace? Or smoldering wreckage?
What's the whole point?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Acts of desperation. He will answer for his deeds, all the way back to the beginning.
Agree. With the exception of Matthew 5:43-48. (see below)
But that is not about what Satan will do. It's about what God will do.
Ultimately, my beliefs about Universalism center on the character of God.
Is he a tyrant, or something more?
In this discussion I have imagined the end of all things as a complete triumph of grace.
What would that look like?
Jesus asks us to turn the other cheek and to forgive others and pray for those who spitefully use us.
To love our enemies is godly behavior. How then should God treat His enemies? Incinerate them?
Origen was criticized (anathematized?) for entertaining the thought that Satan and his angels (demons)
would be saved in the end. The Church, understandably (?) took great offense at the idea.
And frankly I couldn't wrap my head around it either until the "love your enemies" passage sunk in.
We are called to "Be perfect..." - vs 48 = "love your enemies"
Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people,
what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Seems like a safe bet. - LOL
Is this animal worth saving? Or is it too far gone?
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The Universalist Hermeneutic
This claim concerning biblical authority is crucial, because it allows us to rule out many versions of universalism which don’t believe in the ultimate authority of the Bible but are, and sometimes self-confessedly, “liberal” in their theological method.
The “strongest” forms of universalism which demand attention are those advocates who claim to hold to an evangelical method in wanting the entire Bible—including all the passages that speak of judgment and hell—as their ultimate authority.
Typically such advocates will affirm many fundamental and biblically orthodox beliefs, save two: first, that an individual’s destiny is not fixed at death (i.e., those in hell continue to have opportunities to be saved by Christ through faith); second, that in the end everyone will do this.
This form of universalism doesn’t simply rely on neglecting or filtering out the many texts which speak of punishment and hell, while at the same time prioritizing passages which could be said to promote universalism. Rather, what is adopted by them is a universalist hermeneutic which is believed can be legitimately inferred from the whole narrative of Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Indeed, concerning judgment, punishment, and hell, these universalists claim they can hold together more satisfactorily (theologically, philosophically, and pastorally) elements of the Christian tradition than historic creedal formulations can.
Doctrinally, issues surrounding the love of God are central in this debate. The type of universalism being described here claims that if God is love, and if the Christian hope is one where God is to be ultimately triumphant and victorious, then all his actions must be compatible with his love—including his holiness, wrath, and justice. As a result, any account of hell must be a manifestation of divine love and mercy. A fundamental assertion here is that the purpose of all divine judgment and punishment is never exclusively retributive, legitimizing hell being populated; rather, it is ultimately always concerned with correction, purification, and rehabilitation. Not only every individual passage of Scripture, but the entirety of the plotline of the Bible, must be read through this lens.
The Problem of Universalism
Although superficially attractive, there are many reasons even this “evangelical” universalism cannot be countenanced, and more broadly why the orthodox historical and creedal position of the church must be maintained. First, the Bible presents what might be called a straightforward separation between humanity, described in a series of contrasts: those in Christ and those in Adam, sheep and goats, and so on.
The relationship between these two groups is described in terms of enmity and hostility. For the “sheep” and those “in Christ,” one can speak of a fatherly disciplinary and parental love. For those who ultimately are not the sheep, and so remain outside of Christ, the Bible speaks of the irrevocable and final punishment of judgment after death. Christ speaks of this reality as losing one’s soul (Mark 8:36), being denied by him (Mark 8:38), and doors shutting (Matt. 25:10–11).
The New Testament stresses an urgency of decision in this life while it is still possible—or else face exclusion in the age to come. The parables of the wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, wise and foolish virgins, and sheep and goats are spoken in stark terms. There is no hint that destinations can be reversed “at the end of the age” (Matt. 13:40).
Second, such language are not simply “warnings” that may ultimately be unfulfilled; it would seem there will be individuals in this category:
God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. (2 Thess. 1:6–10)
The two apocalyptic passages of Revelation 14:9–11 and 20:10–15 would appear to confirm this.
Third, the evidence for any form of postmortem “evangelism,” or opportunity to reverse decisions made in this life, seem sparse and speculative. A central motivation of Christian mission is the urgency of hearing the gospel through a human messenger in this life. For these reasons at least, it seems very difficult to wrestle the biblical texts into a universalist conclusion.
Reclaiming the Love of God from Universalism
Theologically, though, what about God’s love and its compatibility with God’s holiness, wrath, and justice? Does this demand a universalist conclusion? It does not—if we remember that while God’s love revealed to us is real and true love (indeed the definition of real and true love), God’s love is qualitatively different from human love.
God is God, and humans are humans. In Scripture we see his love revealed, communicated, and accommodated in a way we can understand. We cannot ever suppose ourselves to be more just or merciful than God himself. This is not an appeal to mystery, which could be called a “cop-out,” but rather a recognition that the Bible reveals aspects of God’s love that need to be delineated and distinguished. There is the self-sufficient and perfectly self-giving love of God seen between the persons of the Trinity. Then there is the universal love of God, creating and upholding the world and everything in it in his ongoing providence and common grace.
Finally, there is the particular, saving, covenantal love God has for his own people. God is never conflicted in himself, nor are his attributes compartmentalized, and therefore his perfect love is not inconsistent with his holiness, justice, or wrath. For example, in Psalm 136 the constant refrain “his love endures forever” is juxtaposed and yet consonant with “him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt” (v. 10) and “to him who struck down great kings” (v. 17).
Ultimately, God’s love is not inconsistent with hell being populated for eternity by those creatures who habitually rebel and reject their Creator. Given the sinfulness of sin, the fact God saves one of his creatures—let alone that great multitude no one can count—is an act of sheer mercy and grace. The cross of Christ is where is we see God’s retributive wrath and mercy meet such that God’s justice is satisfied. This is the heart of the gospel we are to proclaim to all and for all who will come.
Universalism: Will Everyone Finally Be Saved?
Christian Universalism contends that an individual’s destiny is not fixed at death, and that ultimately everyone will be saved by Christ.
www.thegospelcoalition.org
J.
I believe there at the end will be separation, @St. SteVen. That’s what is found in revelation. Does Yahavah extend the invitation to all people daily, or just some?
People go and shoot deer and then skin it just as much as fish. Some humans chop other humans up. Why does this picture matter? Isn’t there a separation show in revelation?
@St. SteVen, God is fair and if he judged rightly. What do you think he will do for a person who comes to him in death with a heart that did not want him? Force him? I don’t think that is the case bro. He will give them a body that will live outside of the kingdom…
At least this is what revelation shares with us.
You gotta think. There are people who murder their whole families, sometimes it’s their own daughters or sons, and there are people out there who simply in the end, aren’t thinking about God, they be thinking about themselves.
Is God just gonna give every person a pass and say come on in to the kingdom?
They need a Jesus pass to do that, and that is a choice for an individual to make while the invitation is given before the end of life….
And I’m not saying murderers aren’t forgiven, but if they have a callous heart towards God and want nothing to do with him… does God not love them? Surely he desire them to come to him…
But just like Adam and Eve, there is choice. Not force.
At least this is what revelation shares with us.
You gotta think. There are people who murder their whole families, sometimes it’s their own daughters or sons, and there are people out there who simply in the end, aren’t thinking about God, they be thinking about themselves.
Is God just gonna give every person a pass and say come on in to the kingdom?
They need a Jesus pass to do that, and that is a choice for an individual to make while the invitation is given before the end of life….
And I’m not saying murderers aren’t forgiven, but if they have a callous heart towards God and want nothing to do with him… does God not love them? Surely he desire them to come to him…
But just like Adam and Eve, there is choice. Not force.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
No need for me to argue these points here.
Answering Twelve Challenges to Universalism
...on final salvation in the major branches of Christendom?” 8. “What would happen if Christian congregations or denominations embraced universalism?” 9. “What’s the final destiny of Satan and demons?” 10. “Can sinful people make atonement or satisfaction for their own sins through their own...Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?
Here's something I find interesting. My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view". Seems that saw should cut both ways. What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then...If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?
...the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved? These two questions show a common misunderstanding about Christian Universalism. (Universal Reconciliation, Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, UR) These quotes are from the website Universalist Musings. "When this...Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?
How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss. Thanks.Does Christian Universalism deny the justice of God?
How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss.Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?
Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east. It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it. "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume...[
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God has only ever intended Life for his creation (Lucifer included)
Grace has triumphed in that it has redeemed humanity in Jesus, ie he does not hold our rebelliousness against us. (who will believe this?) It's good news. But no, we insist on our own formulas and pride keeps men insisting on them; they choose not to trust God's gift (which is ultimately calling God a liar)
The issue is not that God wants to keep people from life but rather that the madness and pride which infects humanity has many preferring death. Yes, its madness and Satan's sophistry has so fooled Earths inhabitants, many think they are getting life when in fact they choose to be cheerleaders for death. (death meaning non existence....which they don't believe either)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
What are you saying about the Bible? No issues in origins and translation?
We don't even have the original autographs. (manuscripts)
What we do have is a best guess fueled by doctrinal bias.
Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot
My understanding is that Jesus paid the death penalty on our behalf. Not that God poured his "retributive wrath" out on his only-begotten.
There was no need for the sadistic cruelty of "retributive wrath". The wages of sin is death, not sadistic torture.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
All have immense value and are well worth rescuing (saving) A drowning man who resists his rescuer sufficiently, will drown.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you think God didn't take this into account?
That we are capable of derailing God's plan for humankind?
Does He fall back to a Plan B that saves 1-in-1,000,000?
And the rest go in the dustbin of non-existence?
In the end we can ask Him, why did you bother?
Leave well enough alone.
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I don't like Christian Universalism personally. I don't have any issue with anyone that assumes that position, I just do not believe it is true.
I get that "every knee shall bow, and confess Jesus Christ as Lord."
I don't believe that is going to be a forced thing, it will have to be people coming from outside the Kingdom, by choice to go through the fire, which is mentioned in Revelation, to get to that point... (where they will find the Lamb and his Angels) but I have optimistic hope for all people being resurrected, and each having a place to go to... everyone has to make a choice just as Adam and Eve, and I don't believe that God forces us to do anything... He lets make a choice just like he did.
It's either outside the kingdom, or going into the heavenly kingdom.
If God is a God of "force" I don't want nothing to do with such a God.
I get that "every knee shall bow, and confess Jesus Christ as Lord."
I don't believe that is going to be a forced thing, it will have to be people coming from outside the Kingdom, by choice to go through the fire, which is mentioned in Revelation, to get to that point... (where they will find the Lamb and his Angels) but I have optimistic hope for all people being resurrected, and each having a place to go to... everyone has to make a choice just as Adam and Eve, and I don't believe that God forces us to do anything... He lets make a choice just like he did.
It's either outside the kingdom, or going into the heavenly kingdom.
If God is a God of "force" I don't want nothing to do with such a God.
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