attacking another denomination are included in this rule.

[quietthinker]

Do you think God didn't take this into account?
That we are capable of derailing God's plan for humankind?

Does He fall back to a Plan B that saves 1-in-1,000,000?
And the rest go in the dustbin of non-existence?

In the end we can ask Him, why did you bother?
Leave well enough alone.

[

You can do your utmost to persuade a friend not to suicide, however if your friend is determined and pulls it off, technically he derailed your plan but the responsibility is his, not yours. You are exonerated.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't like Christian Universalism personally. I don't have any issue with anyone that assumes that position, I just do not believe it is true.

I get that "every knee shall bow, and confess Jesus Christ as Lord."

I don't believe that is going to be a forced thing, it will have to be people coming from outside the Kingdom, by choice to go through the fire, which is mentioned in Revelation, to get to that point... (where they will find the Lamb and his Angels) but I have optimistic hope for all people being resurrected, and each having a place to go to... everyone has to make a choice just as Adam and Eve, and I don't believe that God forces us to do anything... He lets make a choice just like he did.

It's either outside the kingdom, or going into the heavenly kingdom.

If God is a God of "force" I don't want nothing to do with such a God.

Romans 9:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Therefore I continue to have hope that Yeshua stated the just and the unjust both shall be raised, and I believe what we see in revelation still stands true, those outside the gate, and those whom may go into the heavenly kingdom.

 

[St. SteVen]

A drowning man who resists is rescuer sufficiently, will drown.

I'm familiar with that reasoning.

A drowning man is in a desperate situation and naturally cooperates with rescue.
Rescuers will ignore the wishes of an uncooperative victim and save them anyway.
Granted, is some cases this may fail. But ultimately doesn't work as an apologetic
for "the death wish of humankind". IMHO

Even humans take special care of those who lean toward self-harm.
We will lock them up in a psychiatric ward until we sort it out.
A straight jacket and a padded cell if need be.

Again, the question of whether humankind has the ability to thwart the will of God on our behalf.
I can't imagine that he would not anticipate such. Poor planning if He didn't. Isn't He omniscient?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

You can do your utmost to persuade a friend not to suicide, however if your friend is determined and pulls it off, technically he derailed your plan but the responsibility is his, not yours. You are exonerated.

But can we extend that into the spiritual realm?
Is God incapable of rescuing humankind from themselves?
Do we claim that salvation depends on us, not God?

Good discussion BTW.
I hope I am not aggravating you.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

All have immense value and are well worth rescuing (saving)

That's it in a nutshell.
If God believes that, what would be the ultimate result?

Most would see my thoughts as simple emotionalism.
That I'm out-of-touch with the harsh reality of a tyrant God
that incinerates everything in His path.

But that view seems out-of-touch with God's character to me.

[

 

[MatthewG]

But can we extend that into the spiritual realm?
Is God incapable of rescuing humankind from themselves?
Do we claim that salvation depends on us, not God?

People have a choice, just like Adam and Eve. Yahavah extends his invitation to look towards him every day...

Do you remember this verse Isaiah 65:2 All day long I opened my arms to a rebellious people. But they follow their own evil paths and their own crooked schemes.

Again founded by Jesus, saying:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Why doesn't God just have people looking to him every single day. Instead of giving an invitation every day.

God being good, he is gonna give them what they want in the afterlife, either to be with him, or without him. That is what Revelation says.

 

[St. SteVen]

Most would see my thoughts as simple emotionalism.
That I'm out-of-touch with the harsh reality of a tyrant God
that incinerates everything in His path.

But that view seems out-of-touch with God's character to me.

The rebuttal then is that I need to "balance God's love and wrath". (justice) ???

Like a wise person once said, "A person that is mean to the wait staff is a mean person."

You can't disregard that simply because you think they are your friend.

[

 

[MatthewG]

@St. SteVen, where you are in your relationship with God has no bearing to me personally.

I just want to know how you get past Revelation which shows what is the result in the end.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Revelation 21: 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and [e]brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[MatthewG]

What's interesting about those verses it that people "take their part." I believe that in the Afterlife God continues to call out to people whom are outside of the gates, and he may use us to even go help them try to get to the light, to go through this fire, but I don't know. It will be good to have some type of job to do for Yahavah, even in the after life. I think there is much to do in the afterlife, compared to just nothing in general.

 

[quietthinker]

But can we extend that into the spiritual realm?
Is God incapable of rescuing humankind from themselves?
Do we claim that salvation depends on us, not God?

Good discussion BTW.
I hope I am not aggravating you.

[

Lucifer insisted on the path he chose; do we suppose that God made no efforts for his recovery....and what were the nature of those efforts?
Adam was warned that death would result in disobedience; I'm certain Lucifer was cognisant of that reality for himself.
Both the lie Lucifer invented and peddled that Eve believed (was tricked) and Adam chose, did not result in God's abandonment, rather he went to lengths unimaginable by the intelligent Universe.

God knew the flood was coming (how that came about is another story) so he put a rescue plan in place for all and any who wanted in. We know how many that was. Did God's plan fail?

Humanity will deliberately destroy itself and this planet given enough time. Apparently only a relative few want out. Did God's unimaginable plan fail?

Love is vulnerable. God is vulnerable even while he is omnipotent and omniscient.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

lucifer insisted on the path he chose; do we suppose that God made no efforts for his recovery

You have no proof from scripture that salvation for satan is available or that God ever did anything to get him saved

God is vulnerable even while he is omnipotent and omniscient.

That's false!

At the tower of babel they were wanting to invade Heaven and conquer God... and the Lord laughed and prevented it from happening

It's not possible for the Creator to be taken of or defeated by anything He created so... NO God and His Kingdom is not vulnerable in any way shape or form and it's laughable to suggest such because He is in fact all powerful.

 

[quietthinker]

You have no proof from scripture that salvation for satan is available or that God ever did anything to get him saved View attachment 57055





That's false!

At the tower of babel they were wanting to invade Heaven and conquer God... and the Lord laughed and prevented it from happening

It's not possible for the Creator to be taken of or defeated by anything He created so... NO God and His Kingdom is not vulnerable in any way shape or form and it's laughable to suggest such because He is in fact all powerful.

......and so your replies indicate you do not understand/ know the Godman.

What you do know is a cerebral assent to cobbled information which has no form that resembles the Creator.....a bit like a computer which has no real connection with anything living.

 

[MatthewG]

@quietthinker,

I read in a book that maybe sometimes God is sad.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lucifer insisted on the path he chose; do we suppose that God made no efforts for his recovery....and what were the nature of those efforts?

Interesting question. I guess we aren't told.

I suppose it gets back to the Logos. (logic/reason/plan) from the beginning.
The story needed an antagonist. Satan was as necessary as Judas. (more actually)
We need to reach the end of the story to see Satan's redemption.

Adam was warned that death would result in disobedience; I'm certain Lucifer was cognisant of that reality for himself.

Perhaps. Again, we don't know.
Being cast out of heaven would be a key indicator.

Both the lie Lucifer invented and peddled that Eve believed (was tricked) and Adam chose, did not result in God's abandonment, rather he went to lengths unimaginable by the intelligent Universe.

Yes, a part of the story of redemption. (the Logos)

God knew the flood was coming (how that came about is another story) so he put a rescue plan in place for all and any who wanted in. We know how many that was. Did God's plan fail?

That is a mystery and a conundrum.
If that was the solution, it certainly seems like overkill. (global genocide) ???

Humanity will deliberately destroy itself and this planet given enough time. Apparently only a relative few want out. Did God's unimaginable plan fail?

Sure looks that way. But is that the result of the Logos? Doubtful.

Love is vulnerable. God is vulnerable even while he is omnipotent and omniscient.

Yes. But will the Logos fail?

[

 

[BarneyFife]

At the tower of babel they were wanting to invade Heaven and conquer God.

You have no proof from scripture that they were wanting to invade Heaven and conquer God.

I have you on my ignore list so I may or may not see any reply.

.

 

[quietthinker]

If that was the solution, it certainly seems like overkill. (global genocide) ???

The Flood is attributed to God. The reason given is all the wickedness prevalent. However, God is omniscient, ie, all knowing. The Flood made no difference to the trajectory of men. Evil surfaced within short space. If God was the instigator of the flood and he knew it wouldn't change the trajectory, then what was that exercise about. I assert it wasn't God who caused the flood, that's not his style.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
If that was the solution, it certainly seems like overkill. (global genocide) ???

The Flood is attributed to God. The reason given is all the wickedness prevalent. However, God is omniscient, ie, all knowing.

Right. The narrative actually says that He "regretted that he had made human beings on the earth". - Gen.6:6
Solution = Global genocide
Say what?

The Flood made no difference to the trajectory of men. Evil surfaced within short space.

Right. Even global genocide was ineffective. More planning issues.

If God was the instigator of the flood and he knew it wouldn't change the trajectory, then what was that exercise about.

Exactly.

I assert it wasn't God who caused the flood, that's not his style.

Who caused the flood in your view?

[

 

[Brakelite]

Who caused the flood in your view?

Climate change. Seriously. Next question, who caused the climate change???

 

[quietthinker]

Right. The narrative actually says that He "regretted that he had made human beings on the earth". - Gen.6:6
Solution = Global genocide

This is an anthropomorphism, ie attributing to God characteristics of fallen man.
Genocide is a man made devil inspired activity. It is foreign and opposed to the revelation of God in Jesus.

Who caused the flood in your view?

I think the antediluvians were sharper than we give them credit. In my view they experimented with the elements and genetics of animals...maybe even men....probably devil inspired. I think dinosaurs resulted from genetic manipulation.

As far as the weather goes, the flood was also a result of fiddling with the elements.
I don't think this is too far fetched as science today knows that human interference can alter weather patterns.
The antediluvians pulled the plug and couldn't get it back in....it destroyed them.

Today our destructiveness and pride has us experimenting and building nuclear arsenals and who knows what else evil.
It has not escaped us that if we pull the plug (a nuclear war) it's bye bye Kansas.....so to speak.

 

[Heart2Soul]

If a particular denomination or denominations are intimately involved in prophetic events that spell trouble for those remaining faithful to the gospel and God's calling on their lives, but we cannot expose them as the danger and hypocrites that they are, even deceived of Satan and we being limited in warning others of those dangers, what are we to do?
How would y'all suggest we go about exposing deception in favor of truth without being described as 'attacking'?

If what you are sharing is the Truth of God's Word why not let it speak for itself? But if you are correcting others based on a church doctrine then you should leave it alone. Every denomination has a doctrine of faith that defines what they believe. The simple Word of God cannot be disputed when taken straight from the Bible. The interpretation can get misconstrued and that's when it needs to be addressed.