When the Son of Man Comes:

[Keraz]

Luke 17:29-30 On the day that Sodom was destroyed, fire and sulphur rained upon them and killed them all. It will be like that again when the Son of Man is revealed. Amos 4:11-12
Matthew 24:37-42 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be when the Son of Man comes. In the days before the flood, they ate, drank and married until the day that Noah entered the ark, they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be again when the Son of Man comes. In His vengeance and wrath, not in His glory.
Genesis 9:11-14 My covenant to never again destroy all living creatures by a flood is confirmed by the sign of the rainbow.
Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35 I have sealed in My storehouse, ready for the Day of punishment and vengeance, a fire that will be set ablaze by My anger. It will envelope the world in flames, burning to the depths of the earth. Jeremiah 50:25
Psalm 110:1-6....I shall make Your enemies Your footstool....In glorious majesty, You judge the nations, shattering the wicked throughout the world.

Isaiah 24:18-23 On that Day, the Lord will punish in heaven the host of heaven and on earth the leaders of the nations are caught and punished. The sun and moon will be darkened, for the glory of the Lord will be in Jerusalem and is revealed to the elders of His people.
2 Peter 3:5-7 & 10....the world before Noah was destroyed by a great flood. Now, by God’s Word the present heavens and earth are reserved for burning, kept for the Day of judgement when the godless will be destroyed. That Day will come unexpectedly, the sky will dissipate with a great noise and the earth will be enveloped in flames. All its inhabitants will be tested.
Isaiah 66:1-6 My people are oppressed and afflicted and evil people displease Me, they say: Let the Lord come, we do not believe in Him. Therefore, the noise you can hear is the Lord dealing retribution to His foes. Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27
Matthew 24:40-44 There will be two men in a field, one will be taken the other left, two women at the mill, one will be taken, the other left. Keep awake, therefore for the Lord will come unexpectedly.
Isaiah 63:1-6 The Lord comes from the godless nations, in His power and majesty, He tramples them in His fury, their blood spills out and splashes His garments.

At the Return He comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10...the Day the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire….He will reveal His glory among all believers. Revelation 14:1
What we can understand from the above Bible passages, is that the Day of the Lord, when the Son of Man takes action, is not Jesus’ Return as the Word of God, for the Millennium reign. At the Return: ‘all will see Him’, not as in this Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, where He is not seen: Psalms 18:11, Luke 3:17, but ‘His glory will be revealed to all believers’. 2 Thessalonians 1:10
God promised to ‘never again flood the earth’, but He has ‘stored up a fire that will envelope the earth in flames’, a worldwide judgement/punishment, vividly described by all the prophets.
This terrible fire and devastation will come upon the world unexpectedly, ‘While they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure, then destruction is upon them’. 1 Thess. 5:3 Huge numbers will be killed by the fire, earthquakes and the resulting famines afterward. Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:1-8, Ezekiel 30:2-5
The Lord is not seen on that Day, but His people are saved and protected, [not raptured] Isaiah 30:26b, Isaiah 43:2, Zechariah 9:5-16
Then, as in Ezekiel 20:33-38...by My outpoured wrath, [The Day of wrath] I shall bring you out of the nations and gather you back to Israel. The Lord is: ‘Waiting to show you His favour’, and to bless His true believing people as they fulfill the promises to the Patriarchs and their destiny: ‘to be a light to the nations’. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:4-16

 

[ScottA]

the Lord will come unexpectedly.

Unfortunately, that means: He does not come as many/most believe He will.

 

[Keraz]

Unfortunately, that means: He does not come as many/most believe He will.

The unexpected 'coming of the Lord', is not the glorious Return, but the terrible Day when He sends His fiery wrath. Psalms 11:4-6 and many other Prophesies about that Day - the next Prophesied event.

 

[quietthinker]

Luke 17:29-30 On the day that Sodom was destroyed, fire and sulphur rained upon them and killed them all. It will be like that again when the Son of Man is revealed. Amos 4:11-12
Matthew 24:37-42 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be when the Son of Man comes. In the days before the flood, they ate, drank and married until the day that Noah entered the ark, they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be again when the Son of Man comes. In His vengeance and wrath, not in His glory.
Genesis 9:11-14 My covenant to never again destroy all living creatures by a flood is confirmed by the sign of the rainbow.
Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35 I have sealed in My storehouse, ready for the Day of punishment and vengeance, a fire that will be set ablaze by My anger. It will envelope the world in flames, burning to the depths of the earth. Jeremiah 50:25
Psalm 110:1-6....I shall make Your enemies Your footstool....In glorious majesty, You judge the nations, shattering the wicked throughout the world.

Isaiah 24:18-23 On that Day, the Lord will punish in heaven the host of heaven and on earth the leaders of the nations are caught and punished. The sun and moon will be darkened, for the glory of the Lord will be in Jerusalem and is revealed to the elders of His people.
2 Peter 3:5-7 & 10....the world before Noah was destroyed by a great flood. Now, by God’s Word the present heavens and earth are reserved for burning, kept for the Day of judgement when the godless will be destroyed. That Day will come unexpectedly, the sky will dissipate with a great noise and the earth will be enveloped in flames. All its inhabitants will be tested.
Isaiah 66:1-6 My people are oppressed and afflicted and evil people displease Me, they say: Let the Lord come, we do not believe in Him. Therefore, the noise you can hear is the Lord dealing retribution to His foes. Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27
Matthew 24:40-44 There will be two men in a field, one will be taken the other left, two women at the mill, one will be taken, the other left. Keep awake, therefore for the Lord will come unexpectedly.
Isaiah 63:1-6 The Lord comes from the godless nations, in His power and majesty, He tramples them in His fury, their blood spills out and splashes His garments.

At the Return He comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10...the Day the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire….He will reveal His glory among all believers. Revelation 14:1
What we can understand from the above Bible passages, is that the Day of the Lord, when the Son of Man takes action, is not Jesus’ Return as the Word of God, for the Millennium reign. At the Return: ‘all will see Him’, not as in this Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, where He is not seen: Psalms 18:11, Luke 3:17, but ‘His glory will be revealed to all believers’. 2 Thessalonians 1:10
God promised to ‘never again flood the earth’, but He has ‘stored up a fire that will envelope the earth in flames’, a worldwide judgement/punishment, vividly described by all the prophets.
This terrible fire and devastation will come upon the world unexpectedly, ‘While they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure, then destruction is upon them’. 1 Thess. 5:3 Huge numbers will be killed by the fire, earthquakes and the resulting famines afterward. Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:1-8, Ezekiel 30:2-5
The Lord is not seen on that Day, but His people are saved and protected, [not raptured] Isaiah 30:26b, Isaiah 43:2, Zechariah 9:5-16
Then, as in Ezekiel 20:33-38...by My outpoured wrath, [The Day of wrath] I shall bring you out of the nations and gather you back to Israel. The Lord is: ‘Waiting to show you His favour’, and to bless His true believing people as they fulfill the promises to the Patriarchs and their destiny: ‘to be a light to the nations’. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:4-16

The spearhead of all your messages is punishment, Keraz. You appear to relish the details of 'punishment' whenever you post.
Human history has taught us, if it has taught us anything, that threats of punishment do not give people motivation to change. They in fact make people more determined to pursue the course they are on.

Did the flood change anything regarding the human/ global trajectory? Getting closer to home, did the oppression and horrors of the holocaust motivate the Jews to behave differently towards their oppressors? A resounding NO. If anything it has made them determined to subdue even to exterminate. So much for a message which blows the trumpet of 'great ideals and superior insight'!

 

[ScottA]

The unexpected 'coming of the Lord', is not the glorious Return, but the terrible Day when He sends His fiery wrath. Psalms 11:4-6 and many other Prophesies about that Day - the next Prophesied event.

To one life, to another death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The unexpected 'coming of the Lord', is not the glorious Return, but the terrible Day when He sends His fiery wrath. Psalms 11:4-6 and many other Prophesies about that Day - the next Prophesied event.

Wrong. It is the glorious return of Christ because at His glorious return what also will happen is the gathering of His people to Himself "in the air". Paul wrote about this event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. Every person on the earth will experience one of two things on that day. Each person will either be changed to having an immortal body which can't be harmed by the fire (Christians) or they will be destroyed by the fire (non-Christians). Paul said regarding those in spiritual darkness on the day of the Lord that will come unexpectedly that "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Yet, you have some mortals escaping it, thereby contradicting what Paul taught. And what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12, which clearly does not allow for any mortal survivors of the day of the Lord when Jesus returns.

 

[Keraz]

The spearhead of all your messages is punishment, Keraz

Just like all the Prophets, whose messages I merely reiterate. Believe them.

Wrong. It is the glorious return of Christ because at His glorious return what also will happen is the gathering of His people to Himself "in the air". Paul wrote about this event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. Every person on the earth will experience one of two things on that day. Each person will either be changed to having an immortal body which can't be harmed by the fire (Christians) or they will be destroyed by the fire (non-Christians). Paul said regarding those in spiritual darkness on the day of the Lord that will come unexpectedly that "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Yet, you have some mortals escaping it, thereby contradicting what Paul taught. And what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12, which clearly does not allow for any mortal survivors of the day of the Lord when Jesus returns.

There cannot be any change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened, at the GWT Judgment.

There is no fire mentioned at the glorious Return of King Jesus. Those armies killed at Armageddon are not cremated.

 

[ewq1938]

Just like all the Prophets, whose messages I merely reiterate. Believe them.

There cannot be any change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened, at the GWT Judgment.

There is no requirement for the book to be opened for people to receive immortality. The GWTJ is judgement of punishment, not reward anyways.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There cannot be any change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened, at the GWT Judgment.

Why not?

There is no fire mentioned at the glorious Return of King Jesus.

Are these scriptures missing from your Bible?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Those armies killed at Armageddon are not cremated.

What are you basing that on?

 

[Keraz]

There is no requirement for the book to be opened for people to receive immortality. The GWTJ is judgement of punishment, not reward anyways.

Revelation 20:11-15 clearly shows how it is only those whose names are found in The Book of Life, will receive Eternal life.
No other scripture says anyone receives immortality before then. 1 Cor 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment.

Are these scriptures missing from your Bible?

1 Thess 1:6-10, refer to the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
2 Peter 3:10 is the destruction of this earth and the coming of the New Earth, Rev 21:1 But; 2 Peter 3:7 refers to the Sixth Seal.

What are you basing that on?

The carcasses of the dead are eaten by the carrion birds and animals.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thess 1:6-10, refer to the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.

You mean 2 Thess 1:6-10. That passage is clearly about the return of Jesus. It's not even debatable as far as I'm concerned.

2 Peter 3:10 is the destruction of this earth and the coming of the New Earth, Rev 21:1 But; 2 Peter 3:7 refers to the Sixth Seal.

2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10 refer to the same event. There's no basis for thinking otherwise.

2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The present heavens and earth reserved for fire? If the following verse doesn't describe that, then I don't know what does.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

The carcasses of the dead are eaten by the carrion birds and animals.

Revelation 19:11-21 is not meant to be taken literally. It describes Christ's return in a symbolic way. Unless you think He will literally be riding a white horse with a literal sword coming out of His mouth that He uses to literally slay people when He returns? It makes no sense to take all of that literally. The literal form of destruction that will take place is by fire, as 2 Peter 3:10-12 shows. In 2 Thess 1:6-10 it says He will be coming "in flaming fire" to take vengeance on His enemies. You need to learn to be able to distinguish between literal and symbolic text. It shouldn't be that hard. Revelation 19:11-21 is clearly symbolic text.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 20:11-15 clearly shows how it is only those whose names are found in The Book of Life, will receive Eternal life.
No other scripture says anyone receives immortality before then. 1 Cor 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment.

You can't nor can anyone, including Amils, get 1 Cor 15:50-56 to logically fit the GWTJ. And here are some reasons why.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


This indicates this change happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. It is ludricrous that the GWTJ involves just a mere moment, a twinkling of an eye, then the next moment the GWTJ has concluded entirely. Not to mention, nowhere in Revelation 20 does it give the impression that the GWTJ is involving the sounding of a trumpet. Clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, the saved have already put on bodily immortality before that judgment even occurs. So, maybe the reason the book of life is present and opened at the GWTJ might be because it is a book that records everyone's name that is written in it and that God can't find anyone's name written in it present at that judgment, therefore, they are cast into the LOF?

And besides, when Christ returns not all of the lost are even dead yet and that the saved have already been changed when the last trump sounded as Jesus is descending to the earth and that the saved meet Him in the air. At this point, regardless what it looks like when it is fulfilled, the beast and it's armies are gathered below and have to be dealt with. In the meantime it is ludricrous that the GWTJ has already begun.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You can't nor can anyone, including Amils, get 1 Cor 15:50-56 to logically fit the GWTJ.

What does that even mean? Why bring Amils into this when this is about a view that Keraz has all to himself? Amils don't try to say that 1 Cor 15:50-56 can't happen until the GWTJ like Keraz does. I see no basis for his claim about that and he's the only one I've seen who believes that.

So, maybe the reason the book of life is present and opened at the GWTJ might be because it is a book that records everyone's name that is written in it and that God can't find anyone's name written in it present at that judgment, therefore, they are cast into the LOF?

Scripture says that all people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves (2 Cor 5:10, Romans 14:10-12). So, is it your claim as a Premil that any believers who live during the supposed future thousand years (and Satan's little season) are excepted from that and won't have to give an account of themselves? If not, then when else would they stand before the throne except at the GWTJ?

 

[Davidpt]

What does that even mean? Why bring Amils into this when this is about a view that Keraz has all to himself? Amils don't try to say that 1 Cor 15:50-56 can't happen until the GWTJ like Keraz does. I see no basis for his claim about that and he's the only one I've seen who believes that.

I wanted to be fair and point out that even Amils can't get that to logically fit 1 Cor 15:50-56, even if their view is correct, let alone @Keraz get it to logically fit. I didn't mean anything bad by it by mentioning Amils.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wanted to be fair and point out that even Amils can't get that to logically fit 1 Cor 15:50-56, even if their view is correct, let alone @Keraz get it to logically fit. I didn't mean anything bad by it by mentioning Amils.

Okay. I think his reasoning is that 1 Cor 15:54 can't be fulfilled until Revelation 20:14 is fulfilled. He thinks that it can't be true that "death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54) until death is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). But, once we all are changed to put on immortality at Christ's return no one will die after that, so it can be said right then that death has been swallowed up in victory even if death hasn't been officially cast into the lake of fire yet at that moment.

 

[Davidpt]

Scripture says that all people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves (2 Cor 5:10, Romans 14:10-12). So, is it your claim as a Premil that any believers who live during the supposed future thousand years (and Satan's little season) are excepted from that and won't have to give an account of themselves? If not, then when else would they stand before the throne except at the GWTJ?

Maybe the judgment seat of Christ per that context is not meaning the GWTJ in Revelation 20? Per Premil, my view would be that Revelation 11:18 is involving the judgment seat of Christ pertaining to the saved and rewards for the saved but is not meaning Revelation 20:11-15, though.

Here's an idea. You used to be Premil, right? If yes, how did you reason things like this at the time? Surely you recall how you used to reason things like that if you were Premil and argued Premil at the time. When I first encountered you years ago you were already an Amil at that point. Therefore, I have no clue how you argued Premil when you were Premil.

 

[Keraz]

2 Thess 1:6-10. That passage is clearly about the return of Jesus.

That Prophecy is clearly about the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
Jesus does not Return amid blazing fire. Proved by how then; He will be revealed to His own people; v10, not to everyone yet.

2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10 refer to the same event. There's no basis for thinking otherwise.

Peter is describing a sequence of events. First comes the punishment of His enemies, His Day of vengeance and wrath.
After the Millennium will be when the earth and heavens will pass away with a great noise.

That you reject Rev 20 and believe we are in the Millennium now, is your fundamental error.

You can't nor can anyone, including Amils, get 1 Cor 15:50-56 to logically fit the GWTJ

The proof that the Prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, must happen at the GWT Judgment, is when Death will be on more. Revelation 21:4
As for logic, you ride roughshod over that! It simply is not logical for people to become immortal before Eternity comes.

 

[Keraz]

Okay. I think his reasoning is that 1 Cor 15:54 can't be fulfilled until Revelation 20:14 is fulfilled. He thinks that it can't be true that "death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54) until death is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). But, once we all are changed to put on immortality at Christ's return no one will die after that, so it can be said right then that death has been swallowed up in victory even if death hasn't been officially cast into the lake of fire yet at that moment.

My reasoning is correct and is supported scripturally.
Your idea of a change to immortality when Jesus Returns, is not.

Maybe the judgment seat of Christ per that context is not meaning the GWTJ in Revelation 20?

Matthew 25:31-33 describes the Bema seat of Jesus. Nothing there of the silly nonsense of people having 'glorified bodies'.

Note that Matthew 25:46 does make a reference to the GWT Judgment, when His enemies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe the judgment seat of Christ per that context is not meaning the GWTJ in Revelation 20?

Why wouldn't it? Do you think some people are going to appear both before the judgment seat of Christ and before a separate GWT? According to Romans 14:10-12, all people, saved and lost will stand before the judgment seat of Christ because it refers to all those who will bow before Him at that time. Even the lost will bow to Him at that point and have to acknowledge that He is Lord.

Per Premil, my view would be that Revelation 11:18 is involving the judgment seat of Christ pertaining to the saved and rewards for the saved but is not meaning Revelation 20:11-15, though.

It refers in that verse to the dead being judged separately from the saved being rewarded. So, it refers to the dead being judged in Revelation 11:18 and then we see the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15. I think only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from directly relating those passages together.

Here's an idea. You used to be Premil, right?

Yes, but I never believed in it strongly or thought that much about it back then. I was more into debating post-trib vs. pretrib back then and didn't give Revelation 20 a lot of thought.

If yes, how did you reason things like this at the time?

I didn't, really. My whole basis for being premil at that time was the assumption that what is recorded in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19. Of course, we all know that the book is not chronological from beginning to end, but I just didn't think about that back then and wasn't even aware of the amil view back then.

Surely you recall how you used to reason things like that if you were Premil and argued Premil at the time.

I never argued for Premil. Revelation 20 having a future fulfillment never really made sense to me, but I just figured if that's what will happen, so be it and didn't really question it back then. It wasn't until I joined Bible Forums long ago that I started learning about the amil view and it really clicked with me. I had already believed back then that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns, but never put two and two together that in that case it would not leave anyone to populate the earth for a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My reasoning is correct and is supported scripturally.
Your idea of a change to immortality when Jesus Returns, is not.

Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected when He returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23) and we see a description of the dead being resurrected at the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:50-54 and that is when the change to immortality occurs. Therefore, we will be changed to put on immortality when Christ returns. Very simple, but you choose to turn what is simple into something completely convoluted.

Matthew 25:31-33 describes the Bema seat of Jesus. Nothing there of the silly nonsense of people having 'glorified bodies'.

Where does it indicate that no one has glorified bodies there? The sheep represent those who inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" at that time. You can't inherit that kingdom of God with mortal flesh and blood (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, they must have glorified bodies at that point.

Note that Matthew 25:46 does make a reference to the GWT Judgment, when His enemies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

And Matthew 25:31-46 will occur when Jesus returns. Which supports Amil.