Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

And wasn’t he a wonderful counselor?....who could deny that, because he said his teachings came directly from his Father.

He wasn’t born to a perfect sin free mother, only that she was a virgin, would you agree here?


What do you think about this short commentary below, you can see the question someone asked below.

It makes a lot of sense to me , just wondering what your thoughts are..?


Does the Bible say that Jesus was perfect?
No one, not even Jesus, is born or created perfect, for we are talking about moral perfection. Hebrews says that Jesus became perfect through suffering (2:10), learned obedience through suffering (5:8), and was made perfect (5:9). When Adam was created by God, he was perfect in every sense physical and mental.

Hebrews 2​

Warning to Pay Attention​

1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Jesus Made Fully Human​

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
6 But there is a place where someone has testified: “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
12 He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”
13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.”And again he says, “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[Aunty Jane]

He wasn’t born to a perfect sin free mother, only that she was a virgin, would you agree here?

Yes, Jesus came through Mary but was not from Mary...he carried none of the sinful DNA she inherited from Adam. The life of God’s spirit son was transferred from heaven and implanted as an ebryo in Mary’s womb.

The Halakah, (the body of Jewish religious law) defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism. Messiah had to be Jewish, of the tribe of Judah, born in the small town of Bethlehem. All of these prophesies were fulfilled because it was God’s will for his son to redeem fallen mankind. Jesus himself had no control over these things.

What do you think about this short commentary below, you can see the question someone asked below.

It makes a lot of sense to me , just wondering what your thoughts are..?

In carefully studying Scripture, I can answer from that study.....

Does the Bible say that Jesus was perfect?

The Bible says that he was “sinless”.....does that make him “perfect”?
Since all of God’s creation is “perfect”, then as far as the term “teleios” goes....Jesus as a created son of God was as perfect as Adam was when he was created...i.e. without defect.

The word means “something that is brought to a successful completion...needing nothing to be added.”
“Perfect for what it was created for.”

Understanding what redemption is, helps us to understand why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race, to give his life for the one Adam lost for all of us. No other human was sinless and that was the redemption price....nothing more, nothing less. He did not need to be God in order to fulfill the requirements.

No one, not even Jesus, is born or created perfect, for we are talking about moral perfection. Hebrews says that Jesus became perfect through suffering (2:10), learned obedience through suffering (5:8), and was made perfect (5:9). When Adam was created by God, he was perfect in every sense physical and mental.

As a spirit creature in heaven, Jesus was without defect, and as a sinless human he was also without defect, but he learned a lot about humanity from being in human flesh and dealing with imperfect human beings.

Angels in heaven can observe us as beings different from themselves in many ways, but becoming human would teach the Christ how to deal with sinfulness and the effects it had upon all those descended from Adam. He was to guide them back to God, so now he more fully understood them.

All who make up the “kings and priests” who will rule mankind in God’s kingdom (Rev 20:6) have lived in human flesh and experienced its weaknesses, even if Jesus never sinned, he was surrounded by those who did. It taught him to be compassionate, patient and kind to those who struggle with sin. It’s going to take a thousand years to undo all the damage that satan and the first humans inflicted on us....but in the end, all that we lost will be restored to those whom God has “drawn” to himself. (John 6:44; 65)

Hebrews 2​

Warning to Pay Attention
1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Jesus Made Fully Human​

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
6 But there is a place where someone has testified: “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
12 He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”
13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.”And again he says, “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Verses 14-18....explain it well I think....

“14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.”

Do you not see God’s love in that? The fear of death hangs heavy in Christendom, who imagine a fiendish God willing to roast them alive for all eternity if they do the wrong thing.....who would not fear such a monster? But God does not want us to serve him out of fear, but out of love. (1 John 4:18)

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, Jesus came through Mary but was not from Mary...he carried none of the sinful DNA she inherited from Adam. The life of God’s spirit son was transferred from heaven and implanted as an ebryo in Mary’s womb.

Yes, that makes sense.

The Halakah, (the body of Jewish religious law) defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism. Messiah had to be Jewish, of the tribe of Judah, born in the small town of Bethlehem. All of these prophesies were fulfilled because it was God’s will for his son to redeem fallen mankind. Jesus himself had no control over these things.

In carefully studying Scripture, I can answer from that study.....

Ok.

The Bible says that he was “sinless”.....does that make him “perfect”?
Since all of God’s creation is “perfect”, then as far as the term “teleios” goes....Jesus as a created son of God was as perfect as Adam was when he was created...i.e. without defect.

Ok.

The word means “something that is brought to a successful completion...needing nothing to be added.”
“Perfect for what it was created for.”

Understanding what redemption is, helps us to understand why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race, to give his life for the one Adam lost for all of us. No other human was sinless and that was the redemption price....nothing more, nothing less. He did not need to be God in order to fulfill the requirements.

Makes sense.

As a spirit creature in heaven, Jesus was without defect, and as a sinless human he was also without defect, but he learned a lot about humanity from being in human flesh and dealing with imperfect human beings.

Amen.

Angels in heaven can observe us as beings different from themselves in many ways, but becoming human would teach the Christ how to deal with sinfulness and the effects it had upon all those descended from Adam. He was to guide them back to God, so now he more fully understood them.

Interesting.

All who make up the “kings and priests” who will rule mankind in God’s kingdom (Rev 20:6) have lived in human flesh and experienced its weaknesses, even if Jesus never sinned, he was surrounded by those who did. It taught him to be compassionate, patient and kind to those who struggle with sin. It’s going to take a thousand years to undo all the damage that satan and the first humans inflicted on us....but in the end, all that we lost will be restored to those whom God has “drawn” to himself. (John 6:44; 65)

More insight, thank you.

Verses 14-18....explain it well I think....

“14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.”

Do you not see God’s love in that? The fear of death hangs heavy in Christendom, who imagine a fiendish God willing to roast them alive for all eternity if they do the wrong thing.....who would not fear such a monster? But God does not want us to serve him out of fear, but out of love. (1 John 4:18)

Well said...agree over and over....Amen!

 

[Brakelite]

I think you should change your name to Nabal (נָבָל) and I say that respectfully with the full intent Scripture gives it!

I will post one verse proving this truth for every foolish reply!

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to God who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Now let me get on with my posts to Wrangler and Apak!

F2F

That's a fascinating scripture you have shown us, one I have never considered before. What it shows is not what you said though, that the Son needed redemption. Only sinners need redemption. But certainly the Father was God's great helper in overcoming the many temptations and trials that God Son as a human had to face. What it shows also is the Son's dependence on His Father's strength and Spirit, and refused to rely on His own strength. It also shows that Jesus was capable of sinning. There was a huge risk in the Father sending His Son to live in a cold heartless world, where Israel was deep in apostasy, and the devil waiting on every opportunity to destroy Him. The death Christ was being saved from was the the sentence of death that would come from His own fall.

 

[Ritajanice]

Ephesians 1

New King James Version

​

Greeting​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom​

15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your [f]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[Ritajanice]

What it shows also is the Son's dependence on His Father's strength and Spirit, and refused to rely on His own strength.

We also need to fully depend on the Spirit, there is NO strength in us, we are useless without the power of the Spirit and as his word says....we are nothing and know nothing without the Living Holy Spirit, who indwells our heart/ spirit.
Short commentary.
Being partakers of His divine nature means that divine blood is within. You who are born again have had a blood transfusion; divine blood flows in your veins as well as human blood. It's wonderful when you know that you are a partaker of the divine blood that flowed in Jesus, that His divine blood is now a part of you!

 

[face2face]

That's a fascinating scripture you have shown us, one I have never considered before. What it shows is not what you said though, that the Son needed redemption. Only sinners need redemption.

Brakelite, we have already thoroughly established that Jesus required redemption from death (not his sin!). The Trinitarians were in disarray that evening and have yet to recover. Johann placed me on ignore because he blew a valve!

Johann couldn't explain the eternal covenant in Jesus' blood, or how God used that blood and covenant to raise Him from the dead.

It's problematic for you also because if Christ went through the process of "being saved", then he could not have pre-existed.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite you would do well to read all the verses I provided and watch Johann explain away everyone of them. In the end he requested I show him a verse which showed him Jesus required redeeming.

I did!

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:12

A number of disturbing facts there for you to process!

Through & By are significant!

These are not the kinds of verses that someone who believes in the preexistence of Christ would want to read!

(Note: the Saints will be raised by to eternal redeption by the same eternal covenant).

Only mortals are saved this way!

F2F

 

[ProDeo]

No need to wait-just believe.

Amen.

The designations in Isaiah 9:6 ("Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father," "Prince of Peace") are best understood as titles rather than personal names. These titles describe the character, authority, and roles of the Messiah, encapsulating His divine nature and mission.

@David in NJ @amigo de christo @LatterRain and others.

Trying (emphasis added) to understand Isaiah 9:6, maybe context helps.

Jes 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Jes 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

. Prophecy about the Millennium Kingdom? (Rev 20)
. Prophecy about when Christ Himself will also be subject to the Father? (1 Cor 15:28)
. Else ?

 

[Johann]

Amen.


@David in NJ @amigo de christo @LatterRain and others.

Trying (emphasis added) to understand Isaiah 9:6, maybe context helps.

Jes 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Jes 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

. Prophecy about the Millennium Kingdom? (Rev 20)
. Prophecy about when Christ Himself will also be subject to the Father? (1 Cor 15:28)
. Else ?

Thank you, Brother @ProDeo. I will remain a silent observer, as I find myself under scrutiny where correction is not welcome.

Continue the good work for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

J.

 

[Taken]

Remember Jesus has a God…

According to You…Does God have a God?

 

[IronMaiden]

Amen.


@David in NJ @amigo de christo @LatterRain and others.

Trying (emphasis added) to understand Isaiah 9:6, maybe context helps.

Jes 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Jes 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

. Prophecy about the Millennium Kingdom? (Rev 20)
. Prophecy about when Christ Himself will also be subject to the Father? (1 Cor 15:28)
. Else ?

Greetings, @ProDeo … and thank you.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV) 6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [His] government and peace [There will be] no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This increase of His government and the peace upon the entire earth forever and ever is why I believe that we can be assured that this is Christ's second advent; so it is the first day of the millennium, the Lord’s Day, when Jesus will reign for one thousand years.

This passage of scripture is an excellent depiction of the Trinity— I love it!

 

[face2face]

Jes 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Isaiah states that he "shall be called" (i.e. in the Kingdom Age, vs. 7)

Have you noticed how many times in our discussions you and Johann never read the context or even the verse clearly enough to form truth.

It’s not that he is now "The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father." While the work of this kingdom is carried out by Christ, it is the zeal of the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts that will accomplish it (Isa. 9:7). As Christ said, "I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30).

If you ever want to learn how to read Scripture correctly start a private conversation and I'll show you anytime.

F2F

 

[face2face]

This passage of scripture is an excellent depiction of the Trinity— I love it!

These are titles, LatterRain. Do you understand what a title is? God has many, and so does the Master. It’s fascinating how easily people can be deceived!

Let me show you the extent of your exegesis.

Revelation 3:12 (ESV) says:

"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."

Will the Saints be God also...because Jesus (Son) will write on you God's Name?

Post's like your's are terrible!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Thank you, Brother @ProDeo. I will remain a silent observer, as I find myself under scrutiny where correction is not welcome.

Continue the good work for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

J.

The scrutiny is justified because you claim many things, but when asked to substantiate them, you cannot. You eventually run out of material to present and resort to childish remarks.

I presented at least nine verses that prove Jesus required redemption, yet you rejected every one of them. When you asked me to provide a clear verse, I gave you two, but you still couldn’t provide a strong response.

I’ve asked you more than ten times to show a verse or a passage that proves dualism, but not once have you done so. Instead, you simply inserted a link to a weak article that referred back to creedal formulas.

Every single word in this post can be supported with evidence and you know it.

F2F

 

[MatthewG]

One day I was doing the transfiguration in a study lesson verse by verse, it's cool to see Daniels vision in what happens to the Son of Man, when he returns to his former glory.

 

[face2face]

Cont Isaiah 9:6...

The new world government will rest upon the shoulders of the Son of God, and he will rule from the throne of King David – as stated in Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 28:18, Luke 1:32, and 1 Corinthians 15:24-25.

He's a promised Son peeps!

How can Jesus be a promised Son, if he already exists?

F2F

 

[face2face]

One day I was doing the transfiguration in a study lesson verse by verse, it's cool to see Daniels vision in what happens to the Son of Man, when he returns to his former glory.

Correct, "Son of Man" is a title Jesus gave Himself, signifying that He fully represents humanity in every way. Having overcome sin's flesh, He is now able to judge mankind perfectly.

NOT MY WORDS!

John 5:27 (ESV) says:

"And he has given him (by God) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man."

 

[Scott Downey]

i was very very close to buying a white RAM

to me, white on a truck is overpowering because of the large surface area of a truck

My Color choices are:
Dark Grey Metallic
Silver
Dark Blue / Steel Blue
Dark Olive / Dark Green
Dark Brown

My 2018 Tundra that i sold was Dark Grey Metallic and before that one i had a Dark Green Metallic

I have a 2005 Patriot Blue Ram 3500 Dually 4x4 4dr diesel with 8 foot bed. I like the truck and color very much.
I do all my own work.
Here it is after driving from PA back in 2019


Never have bought a new vehicle and I never take one in for service, I used to be an auto mechanic years ago. Typically if I can't fix it, it does not get fixed. And buying new is too much money.

 

[Johann]

I presented at least nine verses that prove Jesus required redemption, yet you rejected every one of them. When you asked me to provide a clear verse, I gave you two, but you still couldn’t provide a strong response.

You err, but I am being muzzled so I can't give you a sound rebuttal.

J.