Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Johann

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If Jesus is the Word, and God is the Trinity, then which God was the Word with?
Please review all my previous posts, as I have already addressed this matter and see no need to repeat myself. The simple truth is that you do not thoroughly read or study the Scriptures, nor do you rightly divide the word of truth, judging by the nature of the questions I continue to receive.

J.
 

MA2444

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Do not like Red, white or black colors in a truck

I used to have a black truck. It was beastly hot in the summertime. It was ok during the winter but black is a bad choice for trucks, especially if you don't have working a/c.

What's wrong with white trucks though?
 
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ProDeo

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The problem here is that you are using an inaccurate and illogical version of ill-formed clauses as your standard on John 1:1, then hanging it in front of my face and saying look the Greek translation of it is this or that, and so there. Do you see your glaring problem here?
I see no problem with John 1:1

What I see -- as a pattern -- is that clear passages that hint to God the Son become victim to all kind of gymnastics to deny its meaning up to the point of called as mistranslated, or worse, forgeries by the Roman Catholic Church. The only real forgery I have seen is the Johannine Comma. I did my research.

And you really truly believe that something say A, that is next to, or outside of say B, become suddenly A = B or B=A. Really? When is the last time you did an oil change and diagnostic check on your brain machine. I would do it soon, seriously.

Even the word is not God in his entirety. Now figure that one out.

The thing for you to figure out is that A always has been AB by revelation, Thomas - My Lord and my God!
 
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J

Johann

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What verses say Jesus is named these things:
  1. Wonderful Counselor?
  2. Mighty God?
  3. Everlasting Father?
  4. Prince of Peace?
I'll wait.
No need to wait-just believe.


The designations in Isaiah 9:6 ("Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father," "Prince of Peace") are best understood as titles rather than personal names. These titles describe the character, authority, and roles of the Messiah, encapsulating His divine nature and mission.

Reasons they are considered titles:
Contextual Usage in Isaiah:
In ancient Near Eastern literature, it was common for rulers and significant figures to be ascribed descriptive titles that reflected their attributes or the functions they fulfilled. Isaiah 9:6 follows this pattern, providing a list of attributes that describe the nature of the coming Messiah.

The Hebrew Word for "Name" (שֵׁם, shem):
The phrase "his name shall be called" (וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ, wayyiqra shemo) in Hebrew does not necessarily refer to a literal personal name. Instead, it often denotes one's reputation, character, or descriptive identity, as seen in other biblical contexts (e.g., Exodus 34:5-7, where God's name refers to His attributes).

The Compound Nature of the Terms:
These are not single-word names but phrases that convey roles or characteristics:

Wonderful Counselor: A title signifying extraordinary wisdom and guidance.
Mighty God: A declaration of divine power and strength.
Everlasting Father: A title emphasizing care, protection, and eternal authority.
Prince of Peace: A role indicating the establishment of peace and harmony.

New Testament Corroboration:
The New Testament identifies Jesus Christ fulfilling these roles (e.g., His wisdom in John 14:6, His divinity in John 1:1, His eternal kingship in Revelation 1:8, and His role as the bringer of peace in Ephesians 2:14), but it does not record Him being addressed by these exact phrases as personal names.

Thus, these are honorific titles that collectively describe the Messiah's divine identity and mission, rather than a list of literal names by which He is called.

And thanks for bringing this up-now you have NO excuse not to believe Messiah--is YHVH.
Biblical Basis for Identifying Jesus as YHWH:
Jesus’ Use of the Divine Name:

In John 8:58, Jesus declares, "Before Abraham was, I am." This statement echoes God’s self-revelation to Moses in Exodus 3:14, where God says, "I AM THAT I AM" (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh). The use of "I am" (ἐγώ εἰμι, ego eimi in Greek) by Jesus strongly implies His identification with YHWH.

The reaction of the Jews-attempting to stone Him for blasphemy-further confirms they understood Him to be claiming divine identity (John 8:59).

Old Testament Passages Applied to Jesus:

Isaiah 40:3 speaks of a voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare the way of the LORD (YHWH)." This is explicitly applied to Jesus in Mark 1:2-3, identifying Him as YHWH whose way John the Baptist prepared.

Joel 2:32 declares, "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD (YHWH) will be saved." Paul quotes this verse in Romans 10:13 and applies it directly to Jesus, indicating His identity as YHWH.

Jesus’ Divine Authority and Attributes:

Jesus demonstrates divine prerogatives, such as forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7), which the scribes recognize as something only God (YHWH) can do.

He possesses divine attributes, including omnipresence (Matthew 28:20), omniscience (John 21:17), and omnipotence (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus as Creator and Sustainer:

In John 1:1-3, Jesus is identified as the Logos, through whom all things were made. This role is attributed to YHWH in the Old Testament (e.g., Psalm 33:6, Isaiah 44:24).

Colossians 1:16-17 confirms that Jesus created and sustains all things, consistent with YHWH’s role as Creator.
Jesus Receives Worship:

In the New Testament, Jesus is worshipped (e.g., Matthew 28:9, John 20:28), something reserved exclusively for YHWH (Exodus 20:3-5).

Thomas explicitly addresses Him as "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), affirming His divine status.

Theological Explanation:
The doctrine of the Trinity maintains that the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons yet one God. While Jesus is not the Father, He shares the same divine essence as the Father and the Spirit. Therefore, Jesus is fully YHWH, the eternal God, alongside the Father and the Spirit.

This Trinitarian understanding avoids the errors of-

Modalism (the belief that the Father, Son, and Spirit are modes of one person) and
Tritheism (the belief in three separate gods).


Scripture consistently presents Jesus as YHWH, not as a separate deity but as the incarnate Son who fully participates in the identity, attributes, and works of the one true God.

J.
 

ProDeo

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Is is easy to grasp but impossible to reach when the operative word is OF. Prepositions (OF) are not verbs (IS).

Yes, the word IS God but Jesus is NOT. Jesus is OF God - lamb, son, servant, priest, apostle, word and chosen. My turn. Scripture says:
  1. only the father is God.
  2. true worshippers worship the father.
  3. God raised Jesus from the dead
.
  1. No Scripture says the trinity is God.
  2. No Scripture says to worship the trinity.
  3. No Scripture says the trinity raised Jesus from the dead.
What part of that is so difficult to grasp?

And by now you successfully killed Isa 9:6, so I repeat -

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Who is this child?
Who is this son?

How can a human be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ??
 
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MonoBiblical

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I am not Johann as you can see, but I am curious about your thoughts on Isa 9:6 -

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

-----------

Quite some puzzle Oneness folks.

And it should match with everything else in Scripture.

Even with passages like - Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
You might want to check the Hebrew participle that is translated Counselor. If it is a participle, the English word Counselor is poor translation choice to say the least.
 

MonoBiblical

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We share that same faith, we probably have more in common than we disagree about.

God bless you.
While I feel this to be true also, I believe being an obedient heretic is better than being a paranoid-believer in Eternal Conscious Torment, and Total Inability (i.e. all are sinners).
 
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MonoBiblical

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And by now you successfully killed Isa 9:6, so I repeat -

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Who is this child?
Who is this son?

How can a human be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ??
Check the Hebrew part of speech for Counselor. You may get a nasty surprise.
 

David in NJ

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I used to have a black truck. It was beastly hot in the summertime. It was ok during the winter but black is a bad choice for trucks, especially if you don't have working a/c.

What's wrong with white trucks though?
i was very very close to buying a white RAM

to me, white on a truck is overpowering because of the large surface area of a truck

My Color choices are:
Dark Grey Metallic
Silver
Dark Blue / Steel Blue
Dark Olive / Dark Green
Dark Brown

My 2018 Tundra that i sold was Dark Grey Metallic and before that one i had a Dark Green Metallic
 
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Johann

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How did that answer my question, I repeat -

How can a human be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ??

I am pretty sure you can do better.
I see the potential of a steadfast warrior and apologist for Christ Jesus here, with your face set like flint.

J.
 

David in NJ

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Check the Hebrew part of speech for Counselor. You may get a nasty surprise.
Better make 1,000% SURE you do not get a 'nasty' surprise after death!!!

the FATHER says we must worship His SON

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
A.) of those in heaven,
B.) and of those on earth,
C.) and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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MonoBiblical

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How did that answer my question, I repeat -

How can a human be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ??

I am pretty sure you can do better.
He wasn't because he was either counseling or consulting the Mighty God the Everlasting Father. Check it using the Blue Letter Bible's morph tags.
 

MonoBiblical

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Better make 1,000% SURE you do not get a 'nasty' surprise after death!!!
You are paranoid about something having nothing to do with Biblical Law.
the FATHER says we must worship His SON.
There are fewer places in the bible to make that claim. One in the New Testament is bogus, and another in the new says listen to him.

We are not required to worship or even "serve" him as God.
 
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David in NJ

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You are paranoid about something having nothing to do with Biblical Law.

There are fewer places in the bible to make that claim. One in the New Testament is bogus, and another in the new says listen to him.

We are not required to worship or even "serve" him as God.
'nasty surprise' is waiting for you................

Escape Judgment and run to the Feet of the LORD Jesus Christ

The Apostle John KNOWS:

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.
 

MonoBiblical

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'nasty surprise' is waiting for you................

Escape Judgment and run to the Feet of the LORD Jesus Christ

The Apostle John KNOWS:

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

No worship? Pathetic, I expected better.

If you can find where λατρεύω is used as a command about the messiah, you would have a point.​

 
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Pierac

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“Monotheistic atheism” is the unbelief of those who oppose the Divinity of the only Son of God
Ok... So what does that have to do with any of my Post?

Don't include me with youir main stream BS.... Because I spanked the crap out of your John 1:1 post..... Do I need to repost it? I have no problem with that.... I have converted Sooo many with that post.... You need to see it again?

You can let go of your spiritual ankles now!
 
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