Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

4
The foregoing examples are sufficient in establishing that the inspired Scriptures do in fact describe Jesus Christ as God Almighty in the flesh.

Unless noted otherwise, all scriptural citations are taken from the Authorized King James Version (AV) of the Holy Bible.

Endnotes

(1) As the NET text note indicated, this passage has also come down to us with variant readings. The majority of Greek witnesses read Lord instead of Jesus. Yet even this variant still ends up identifying Christ as the Lord who both saved and punished Israel at the time of Moses, since he is the only Lord specifically mentioned within the immediate context:

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ (kai Kyrion hemon ‘Iesoun Christon). I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord (ho Kyrios), having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” Jude 1:4-5

Thus, no matter what reading one opts for, we still end up with an explicit affirmation of the eternal Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Jude describes as the human enfleshment and manifestation of Jehovah God Almighty.

Biblical Verses That Call Jesus God

In this post, I am going to cite some of the biblical texts that apply the term God to Jesus. The prophet Isaiah announced that a virgin would conceive and give birth to a Son who would be called I…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

You should ask God to grant you repentance and get to know the real Christ Jesus.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

So when in your past did you 'find out' that Jesus is a deity as is Father?

When , by grace God drew me to true faith in Christ and i began to READ THE BIBLE for myself .
PRETTY CLEAR what it says . ITS ALWAYS MEN who make things confusing and cloudy . That be a fact friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

Agreed. But Jesus is not the word OR God according to John’s Gospel.

what part of IS , IS SO difficult to grasp .
You all can twist away as you like . but this lamb can read . Since we are on the subject MIND
IF i ask ya what is so hard to BELIEVE what follows AN IF in the bible . cause we got many that twist that too .
But then we have many who pretzel doctrine all day long . MAY , MIGHT i , MIGHT I SUGGEST
its TIME TO READ THE BIBLE FOR ONESELF . WITHOUT the influence of men please .

 

[Johann]

Your scholars know 100% that the Word at John 1:1is given the same exact word as satan is given at 2 Cor 4:4-- So either satan is God or the Word is a god. We know satan is not God. Your supposed scholars know this is 100% fact.

CHRIST: GOD’S CREATED WISDOM?

The following is taken from the monumental work titled The Incarnate Christ and His Critics: A Biblical Defense, authored by Robert M. Bowman Jr. & J. Ed Komoszewski, published by Kregel A…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

J.

 

[APAK]

Read the Greek - John 1:1 Greek Text Analysis

The Word was with God and God was the Word.

The problem here is that you are using an inaccurate and illogical version of ill-formed clauses as your standard on John 1:1, then hanging it in front of my face and saying look the Greek translation of it is this or that, and so there. Do you see your glaring problem here?

And you really truly believe that something say A, that is next to, or outside of say B, become suddenly A = B or B=A. Really? When is the last time you did an oil change and diagnostic check on your brain machine. I would do it soon, seriously.

Even the word is not God in his entirety. Now figure that one out.

 

[APAK]

When , by grace God drew me to true faith in Christ and i began to READ THE BIBLE for myself .
PRETTY CLEAR what it says . ITS ALWAYS MEN who make things confusing and cloudy . That be a fact friend .

So you found this out that Jesus, the Son of God was a deity, say in the first few weeks of knowing about Jesus the Christ that God made also a lord, and the anointed one for our salvation? God his Father assisted his Son a great deal for his growth as a boy into a man and especially for his ministry. And without his assistance he may not have succeeded in his mission and ministry.

 

[amigo de christo]

So you found this out that Jesus, the Son of God was a deity, say in the first few weeks of knowing about Jesus the Christ that God made also a lord, and the anointed one for our salvation? God his Father assisted his Son a great deal for his growth as a boy into a man and especially for his ministry. And without his assistance he may not have succeeded in his mission and ministry.

The FATHER was always with him . GOD is HIS WORD and HIS word be HE .
but the FATHER IS GREATER for its the FATHER WHO SPEAKS as the WORD does exactly as is spoken .
For the essence of GOD cometh forth of HIM when HE speaks
That essence itself IS CHRIST that created all that was and is ..
Take note that WORD does only what was said as it can do no more and no less .
IF GOD said LET there be LIGHT , THERE WAS LIGHT . HIS OWN ESSENCE COMETH FORTH
HIS SPIRIT , HIS WORD . This is a mystery friend . BUT remember
JESUS said , I AM ALPHA and OMEGA , the beginning and the end . NEVER did an angel or any created being
ever say such a thing . ONLY GOD HAD SAID THIS , and OH HE SAYS IT AGAIN in revelatoin .
GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT . And always remember INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST .
Prayerfully this will sink in fast .

 

[ProDeo]

Look, let's be honest here. In your previous reply, you struggled to know the difference between redemption and salvation and then you still do not understand why Jesus the Christ had to become the final example of the burnt offering for our redemption, who met the legal requirements of God. And in this process that is not avoidable, his own redemption as well. I think you do not understand this last part at all, as most do not....it does take some study that 'churches' usually skip over, and deliberately.

And then you were vague in your thoughts as you suddenly spouted out about salvation not being earned. This then told me you were confused. We were speaking of redemption until that time of your remark when you now addressed salvation....reread your post again...

You are right, I (as a non native english speaker) mixed up.

Efez 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Jesus paid our debt.

Jesus -- being sinless -- did not have any debt.

Or it must have been that God put the burden of all sins ever committed (trillions) on His shoulders on the cross and God made Him sin, as Scripture states.

2 Cor 5:21 - For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Petr 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

It does not make Jesus a sinner in need for redemption, it's only us.

..off to other pastures...have a great and warm day..APAK

Likewise brother!

 

[APAK]

The FATHER was always with him . GOD is HIS WORD and HIS word be HE .
but the FATHER IS GREATER for its the FATHER WHO SPEAKS as the WORD does exactly as is spoken .
For the essence of GOD cometh forth of HIM when HE speaks
That essence itself IS CHRIST that created all that was and is ..
Take note that WORD does only what was said as it can do no more and no less .
IF GOD said LET there be LIGHT , THERE WAS LIGHT . HIS OWN ESSENCE COMETH FORTH
HIS SPIRIT , HIS WORD . This is a mystery friend . BUT remember
JESUS said , I AM ALPHA and OMEGA , the beginning and the end . NEVER did an angel or any created being
ever say such a thing . ONLY GOD HAD SAID THIS , and OH HE SAYS IT AGAIN in revelatoin .
GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT . And always remember INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST .
Prayerfully this will sink in fast .

Well you decided not to answer my post, for reasons I may already know, and turned to something completely different.

I was trying to get you tell me what made you think Jesus was a diety, by one verse, by two verses, by 3 or more and which ones. And was all this inspired by the Spirit of God to conclude that Jesus was then a deity? Quite simple if you are confident that the Spirit led you to this conclusion.

So then there is definitely a wall or barrier where you don't not want to breach or cross or for me to cross over.

It must be a very personal thing then to you...

I do like, even love and agree with you amigo when you said the Father is greater than the Son...

Yes it's the Father's word that speaks through his Son as well! These are very scriptural and truly correct....

 

[Aunty Jane]

2. Jehovah's Witnesses
Core Belief: Jehovah's Witnesses hold a view similar to Arianism, teaching that Jesus is a created being, not God Himself. They believe that Jesus, referred to as Michael the Archangel in their theology, was the first creation of Jehovah God and is inferior to Jehovah. They reject the doctrine of the Trinity and do not accept the full deity of Christ.

Scriptural Interpretation: Jehovah's Witnesses interpret certain biblical passages (such as John 1:1) in a way that supports their belief that Jesus is "a god" (small "g"), but not Almighty God.

Yes, a similar view but not exactly the same meaning…..Arius believed that God was unknowable.

The fact that we are not Trinitarians does not make us Arians.

In one of the few writings of Arius that has survived, he claimed that God is beyond comprehension, even for the Son. In line with this, historian H. M. Gwatkin states in his book The Arian Controversy: “The God of Arius is an unknown God, whose being is hidden in eternal mystery. No creature can reveal him, and he cannot reveal himself.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses worship neither the illogically incomprehensible “God” of the Trinitarians nor the “unknown God” of Arius. We say, with the apostle Paul: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Cor 8:6) and as Jesus himself said in John 17:3…..we have to ”know the only true God AND the one he sent”.

Biblical Verses That Call Jesus God

In this post, I am going to cite some of the biblical texts that apply the term God to Jesus.

You can cite all the ambiguous scripture you wish, and argue linguistics and grammar till the cows come home….but you do not have one clear declaration from either Yahweh or his son that they are equal parts of the same “God” as each other, and the Holy Spirit. In fact there is more scripture that argues against the trinity than the butchered verses used to support it.

Paul’s words expressed the collective belief of all the apostles, most of whom did not contribute to the Christian Scriptures….crystal clear….
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; AND there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

There it is….plainly stated….no scripture twisted to accommodate the trinity cancels that out. There is no third party even mentioned. John 17:3 likewise mentions no Holy Spirit.

Trinitarians clearly do not “know” the one God whom Jesus came to reveal to his disciples….his God….who remains so even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

 

[Runningman]

Sure.

John 1:1-3 (Textus Receptus)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If Jesus is the Word, and God is the Trinity, then which God was the Word with?

This verse indicates that the Word (identified as Jesus in John 1:14) existed "in the beginning," implying eternal existence.

Micah 5:2 (LXX)
Καὶ σὺ Βηθλεὲμ, οἶκος Ἐφραθά, μικρὸς εἶ τοῦ εἶναι ἐν χιλιάσιν Ἰούδα· ἐκ σοῦ μοι ἐξελεύσεται τοῦ εἶναι εἰς ἄρχοντα ἐν Ἰσραήλ, καὶ αἱ ἔξοδοι αὐτοῦ ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ἐξ ἡμερῶν αἰῶνος.
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

This prophecy identifies the Messiah's origins as "from everlasting," emphasizing His eternal nature.

In this particular verse, the words "goings forth" can also mean origin. Many versions translate it this way and it would mean Jesus had a point of origin or a beginning and therefore would not literally be from everlasting or time eternal. In that case, the way it would only make sense is if Jesus pre-existed in God's foreknowledge.

Colossians 1:16-17 (Textus Receptus)
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα... καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων, καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.
"For by Him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Jesus is described as pre-existing all creation and sustaining all things, reinforcing the concept of His eternal existence.

For this particular passage, I also take Colossians 1:15 into consideration. The verse places Jesus in the creation, not independent of it. Also, the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 means instrumentality, like a channel, but the context is in regards to the church. The way I read it is that God created the church through Jesus, but not literally all things. All things in the church yes, but in creation I don't agree with that. There are some examples of Jesus not being identified as the Creator. Acts 17:24,25, Acts 4:23-31, and the entire Old Testament are the clearest examples.

Revelation 22:13 (Textus Receptus)
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος, ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Jesus declares Himself as the eternal One, transcending time and creation.

How do you figure that means "Jesus declares Himself as the eternal One, transcending time and creation?"

Hebrews 7:3 (Textus Receptus)
ἀπάτωρ, ἀμήτωρ, ἀγενεαλόγητος, μήτε ἀρχὴν ἡμερῶν μήτε ζωῆς τέλος ἔχων, ἀφωμοιωμένος δὲ τῷ Υἱῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ, μένει ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸ διηνεκές.
"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually."

Though referring to Melchizedek, the typology reflects the eternal nature of Christ as the ultimate High Priest.

Melchizedek is not an eternal being. For the typology to be congruent, Jesus must not have always existed.

John 8:58 (Textus Receptus)
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγώ εἰμι.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus claims the divine name "I AM," indicating His eternal self-existence, echoing Exodus 3:14.

Here's a question. Since Acts 3:13 says the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has a son or servant named Jesus, then how could Jesus be the I AM if Exodus 3:14,15 says the God of Abraham is the I AM?

 

[ProDeo]

@Johann It is the laws of God which have done more good, not just trust in God or in belief of some imaginary man-god.

I am not Johann as you can see, but I am curious about your thoughts on Isa 9:6 -

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

-----------

Quite some puzzle Oneness folks.

And it should match with everything else in Scripture.

Even with passages like - Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

 

[Wrangler]

what part of IS , IS SO difficult to grasp .

Is is easy to grasp but impossible to reach when the operative word is OF. Prepositions (OF) are not verbs (IS).

Yes, the word IS God but Jesus is NOT. Jesus is OF God - lamb, son, servant, priest, apostle, word and chosen. My turn. Scripture says:

1. only the father is God.
2. true worshippers worship the father.
3. God raised Jesus from the dead

.

1. No Scripture says the trinity is God.
2. No Scripture says to worship the trinity.
3. No Scripture says the trinity raised Jesus from the dead.

What part of that is so difficult to grasp?

 

[Wrangler]

I am curious about your thoughts on Isa 9:6 -

his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

What verses say Jesus is named these things:

1. Wonderful Counselor?
2. Mighty God?
3. Everlasting Father?
4. Prince of Peace?

I'll wait.

 

[Scott Downey]

When we know Jesus Christ, we know God

John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[ProDeo]

And the God it was, A word another assumed to be exactly like it was a second word. Now were the individuals the words or were they both God. They are not of the same existence. It is better that Jesus is an individual rather than fully GOD. You don't get the confusion of having three individuals in one.

The deity of Jesus is not about logic, it's about faith what the Scripture states, which the Greek text (and the vast majority of translations) I showed you clearly states. Jesus came from heaven (John 3:13) and incarnated in the human flesh. Do you believe that? Do you understand it? You don't have to.

 

[Wrangler]

You all can twist away as you like .

Trinitarians do the twisting.

Scripture. Jesus is the son of God.

Trinitarian. If you rearrange the words and ignore the pesky OF, it says Jesus is God the son. Why can’t you understand that simple point?

 

[Johann]

There it is….plainly stated….no scripture twisted to accommodate that trinity cancels that out. There is no third party even mentioned. John 17:3 likewise mentions no Holy Spirit.

Trinitarians clearly do not “know” the one God whom Jesus came to reveal to his disciples….his God….who remains so even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

I’m sorry, but Scripture holds the ultimate authority in this matter, not the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

The deity of Jesus is not about logic, it's about faith what the Scripture states,

Scripture states only the father is God. I have faith in that. Why don’t you?

 

[ProDeo]

What verses say Jesus is named these things:

1. Wonderful Counselor?
2. Mighty God?
3. Everlasting Father?
4. Prince of Peace?

I'll wait.

That's the wrong question, the right questions is, who is that child who is called all these names? And how can a human be called all these names?