Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

I didn't miss this verse. I discussed these verses with @Johann earlier last week.

The Greek is ambiguous because the prepositions are subject to interpretation. Verse 1:16 is a good case in point. It begins with the prepositional phrase "ἐν αὐτῷ: in him", which my translation has rendered "by him." This is an odd rendering since the Greek Dative case of αὐτῷ shows "to whom" or "for whom" an action is done. In this instance, Paul means to suggest that God created everything with Jesus in view. He is the one who will stand to benefit directly from the creation because it was created for him, i.e. so that he will be the central and most supreme king of all creation.

Paul never suggested that Jesus created everything.

Not a good argument.

Literal Translation:
"For in Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

2. Analysis of Prepositions and Syntax
ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō):

This phrase is commonly translated as "in Him," but it can also denote the sphere or agency through which creation occurs. In this context, the dative case implies more than an indirect object ("to whom" or "for whom"); it emphasizes that creation was carried out "in relation to" or "by means of" Jesus.

This is consistent with the theological theme that Christ is the active agent of creation, as supported by other passages (e.g., John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2).

δι’ αὐτοῦ (di' autou):

The preposition διά with the genitive case signifies agency or instrumentality-"through Him."

This unambiguously identifies Jesus as the means through which all creation came into being.
This explicitly counters your claim that Paul did not attribute creation to Jesus.

εἰς αὐτὸν (eis auton):

The preposition εἰς indicates purpose or goal—"for Him."

Creation is not only through Christ but also for Christ, affirming His supremacy and centrality in all things.

The repetition of ἐν, διὰ, and εἰς emphasizes Jesus' integral role in creation, leaving no ambiguity about His active involvement as Creator.

3. Parallel Passages That Confirm Jesus as Creator

John 1:3 (Textus Receptus):
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

By him (di' autou). By means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation. The Logos is John’s explanation of the creation of the universe. The author of Hebrews (Heb_1:2) names God’s Son as the one “through whom he made the ages.” Paul pointedly asserts that “the all things were created in him” (Christ) and “the all things stand created through him and unto him” (Col_1:16). Hence it is not a peculiar doctrine that John here enunciates. In 1Co_8:6, Paul distinguishes between the Father as the primary source (ex hou) of the all things and the Son as the intermediate agent as here (di' hou).

The preposition δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) directly identifies Jesus as the Creator.

The phrase "without Him nothing was made" excludes the possibility of Christ being a mere beneficiary of creation.

Hebrews 1:2:
δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
"Through whom also He made the worlds."

Again, διά with the genitive clearly indicates Jesus' role as the agent of creation.

1 Corinthians 8:6:
καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.
"And one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist."

The repeated δι’ οὗ affirms Jesus as Creator.

Your assertion that Paul only portrays Jesus as the beneficiary of creation and not its Creator misunderstands the grammatical use of ἐν, διά, and εἰς in Colossians 1:16. These prepositions collectively describe Jesus as the sphere, agent, and purpose of creation.

Your claim that ἐν αὐτῷ ("in Him") should only mean "with Him in view" is overly restrictive and inconsistent with Paul's broader theology. Other Pauline texts (e.g., 1 Corinthians 8:6) explicitly state that creation occurred through Jesus, leaving no ambiguity.

Your argument ignores the repeated Pauline theme of Jesus’ divine role in creation, which is corroborated by John and the author of Hebrews.

5. Conclusion
Paul unambiguously teaches that Jesus is the Creator, not merely the beneficiary of creation. The syntax of Colossians 1:16, along with parallel passages, demonstrates that Jesus is the active agent ("through Him"), the encompassing sphere ("in Him"), and the ultimate purpose ("for Him") of all creation.

The claim that "Paul never suggested that Jesus created everything" is directly refuted by the consistent testimony of Scripture.

By him - In this place it is affirmed that “creation” was effected by “the Word,” or the Son of God. In Gen_1:1, it is said that the Being who created the heavens and the earth was God. In Psa_102:25-28, this work is ascribed to Yahweh. The “Word,” or the Son of God, is therefore appropriately called “God.” The work of “creation” is uniformly ascribed in the Scriptures to the Second Person of the Trinity. See Col_1:16; Heb_1:2, Heb_1:10. By this is meant, evidently, that he was the agent, or the efficient cause, by which the universe was made. There is no higher proof of omnipotence than the work of creation; and, hence, God often appeals to that work to prove that he is the true God, in opposition to idols. See Isa_40:18-28; Jer_10:3-16; Psa_24:2; Psa_39:11; Pro_3:19. It is absurd to say that God can invest a creature with omnipotence. If He can make a creature omnipotent, He can make him omniscient, and can in the same way make him omnipresent, and infinitely wise and good; that is, He can invest a creature with all His own attributes, or make another being like Himself, or, which is the same thing, there could be two Gods, or as many Gods as He should choose to make. But this is absurd! The Being, therefore, that “created” all things must be divine; and, since this work is ascribed to Jesus Christ, and as it is uniformly in the Scriptures declared to be the work of God, Jesus Christ is therefore equal with the Father.
Barnes.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

And the WORD that was God is the SAME Mediator that Stood before Moses and the FATHER = John 5:37

And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

The SAME WORD also said
I am Alpha and omega , the beginning and the end , the first and the last .
Sanctify them in THY TRUTH THY WORD IS TRUTH .
and later he says I SANCTIFY MYSELF .
GOD is TRUTH , HIS WORD IS TRUTH , HIS SPIRIT IS TRUTH and HIS EVERY WORD BE TRUTH .
Now hit the trenches and praise the glorious LORD , the hour is late and persecutions shall only increase
as the deceptions only increase . We are on a head on collision with the greatest hour of all out tribulation
to come against the saints . THIS one will be MASSIVE and will strike at even the saints in the western socities .
What was foretold cannot be stopped , it must simply be endured and done so faithfully unto GOD , CHRIST
and done so UNTO THE END . many will be tested and tried , many persecuted and even killed ,
But he or she who endures to the end , the same shall be saved

 

[MonoBiblical]

Not a good argument.

Literal Translation:
"For in Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

2. Analysis of Prepositions and Syntax
ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō):

This phrase is commonly translated as "in Him," but it can also denote the sphere or agency through which creation occurs. In this context, the dative case implies more than an indirect object ("to whom" or "for whom"); it emphasizes that creation was carried out "in relation to" or "by means of" Jesus.

This is consistent with the theological theme that Christ is the active agent of creation, as supported by other passages (e.g., John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2).

δι’ αὐτοῦ (di' autou):

The preposition διά with the genitive case signifies agency or instrumentality-"through Him."

This unambiguously identifies Jesus as the means through which all creation came into being.
This explicitly counters your claim that Paul did not attribute creation to Jesus.

εἰς αὐτὸν (eis auton):

The preposition εἰς indicates purpose or goal—"for Him."

Creation is not only through Christ but also for Christ, affirming His supremacy and centrality in all things.

The repetition of ἐν, διὰ, and εἰς emphasizes Jesus' integral role in creation, leaving no ambiguity about His active involvement as Creator.

3. Parallel Passages That Confirm Jesus as Creator

John 1:3 (Textus Receptus):
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

By him (di' autou). By means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation. The Logos is John’s explanation of the creation of the universe. The author of Hebrews (Heb_1:2) names God’s Son as the one “through whom he made the ages.” Paul pointedly asserts that “the all things were created in him” (Christ) and “the all things stand created through him and unto him” (Col_1:16). Hence it is not a peculiar doctrine that John here enunciates. In 1Co_8:6, Paul distinguishes between the Father as the primary source (ex hou) of the all things and the Son as the intermediate agent as here (di' hou).

The preposition δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) directly identifies Jesus as the Creator.

The phrase "without Him nothing was made" excludes the possibility of Christ being a mere beneficiary of creation.

Hebrews 1:2:
δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
"Through whom also He made the worlds."

Again, διά with the genitive clearly indicates Jesus' role as the agent of creation.

1 Corinthians 8:6:
καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.
"And one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist."

The repeated δι’ οὗ affirms Jesus as Creator.

Your assertion that Paul only portrays Jesus as the beneficiary of creation and not its Creator misunderstands the grammatical use of ἐν, διά, and εἰς in Colossians 1:16. These prepositions collectively describe Jesus as the sphere, agent, and purpose of creation.

Your claim that ἐν αὐτῷ ("in Him") should only mean "with Him in view" is overly restrictive and inconsistent with Paul's broader theology. Other Pauline texts (e.g., 1 Corinthians 8:6) explicitly state that creation occurred through Jesus, leaving no ambiguity.

Your argument ignores the repeated Pauline theme of Jesus’ divine role in creation, which is corroborated by John and the author of Hebrews.

5. Conclusion
Paul unambiguously teaches that Jesus is the Creator, not merely the beneficiary of creation. The syntax of Colossians 1:16, along with parallel passages, demonstrates that Jesus is the active agent ("through Him"), the encompassing sphere ("in Him"), and the ultimate purpose ("for Him") of all creation.

The claim that "Paul never suggested that Jesus created everything" is directly refuted by the consistent testimony of Scripture.

By him - In this place it is affirmed that “creation” was effected by “the Word,” or the Son of God. In Gen_1:1, it is said that the Being who created the heavens and the earth was God. In Psa_102:25-28, this work is ascribed to Yahweh. The “Word,” or the Son of God, is therefore appropriately called “God.” The work of “creation” is uniformly ascribed in the Scriptures to the Second Person of the Trinity. See Col_1:16; Heb_1:2, Heb_1:10. By this is meant, evidently, that he was the agent, or the efficient cause, by which the universe was made. There is no higher proof of omnipotence than the work of creation; and, hence, God often appeals to that work to prove that he is the true God, in opposition to idols. See Isa_40:18-28; Jer_10:3-16; Psa_24:2; Psa_39:11; Pro_3:19. It is absurd to say that God can invest a creature with omnipotence. If He can make a creature omnipotent, He can make him omniscient, and can in the same way make him omnipresent, and infinitely wise and good; that is, He can invest a creature with all His own attributes, or make another being like Himself, or, which is the same thing, there could be two Gods, or as many Gods as He should choose to make. But this is absurd! The Being, therefore, that “created” all things must be divine; and, since this work is ascribed to Jesus Christ, and as it is uniformly in the Scriptures declared to be the work of God, Jesus Christ is therefore equal with the Father.
Barnes.

J.

I noticed you failed to look at the verb and argue for an exceptional syntactical agency of εν in dative, as if there is one. Greek basics don't back this up at all.

Secondly, the preposition δια in the genitive indicates an object that is not actually gone through physically but rather actively. It identifies an instrument not an agency.

Thirdly, the verb κτίζω has a meaning to build as in city buildings, not create as in give life. This implies a new creation and is 1st aorist verb inflection ἐκτίσθη implies it not to have been complete.

Hebrews 1:2:
δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
"Through whom also He made the worlds."

Again, another verb and lexical problem. ἐποίησεν is first aorist, and has the meaning to perform an action, rather than make an object. And I would say τοὺς αἰῶνας means he performed permanent precedents, rather than make worlds with him. Why are Tyndale's mistakes ignored here?

 

[David in NJ]

@Johann @MA2444 @rebuilder 454

2022 RAM 1500 pickup

Which Rear would you choose? 3.21 or 3.92

 

[Wrangler]

wrangler The bible DOES say that GOD was the WORD ,

Agreed. But Jesus is not the word OR God according to John’s Gospel.

 

[Johann]

I noticed you failed to look at the verb and argue for an exceptional syntactical agency of εν in dative, as if there is one. Greek basics don't back this up at all.

Secondly, the preposition δια in the genitive indicates an object that is not actually gone through physically but rather actively. It identifies an instrument not an agency.

Thirdly, the verb κτίζω has a meaning to build as in city buildings, not create as in give life. This implies a new creation and is 1st aorist verb inflection ἐκτίσθη implies it not to have been complete.


Again, another verb and lexical problem. ἐποίησεν is first aorist, and has the meaning to perform an action, rather than make an object. And I would say τοὺς αἰῶνας means he performed permanent precedents, rather than make worlds with him. Why are Tyndale's mistakes ignored here?

Your critique misrepresents the grammar and lexical range of ποιέω and αἰών in Hebrews 1:2. The text, in harmony with other New Testament passages, clearly affirms that Christ is the agent through whom God created the universe. The claim of "lexical and verbal problems" fails to stand against the weight of linguistic evidence and the broader theological context of Scripture.

J.

 

[Johann]

I noticed you failed to look at the verb and argue for an exceptional syntactical agency of εν in dative, as if there is one. Greek basics don't back this up at all.

I’m not going to walk you through basic Greek grammar, but your assertion is already incorrect.

The Dative case in Greek can indeed be used in contexts where Jesus is described as the Creator. While the Dative is not the primary case used for explicitly describing creation (the Genitive or Nominative often plays this role), it frequently appears in phrases that convey agency, instrumentality, or benefit, all of which can relate to Jesus' role in creation. Below is a detailed explanation:

1. Common Uses of the Dative Case
The Dative case typically functions to indicate:

Indirect Object: To whom or for whom something is done.
Instrumentality: The means or instrument by which an action is carried out (by, through).
Reference or Respect: In reference to whom something applies.
Locative Use: In or at a place or time.

For Jesus as Creator, the instrumental or locative uses are the most relevant.

2. New Testament Examples Involving Creation
The Dative is explicitly used in creation contexts involving Jesus, particularly to emphasize His instrumental role (through Him).

a) John 1:3 (Instrumental Dative)
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

The preposition δι’ (through) governs the Genitive (αὐτοῦ), but it implies instrumentality. A similar instrumental sense is often conveyed by the Dative case in other contexts.

b) Hebrews 1:2 (Locative or Instrumental Dative)
δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
"Through whom also He made the worlds."

Although δι’ governs the Genitive, the concept of instrumentality is foundational, and the Dative case could theoretically express the same relationship if the syntax allowed for it.

c) Colossians 1:16 (Dative Idea with Prepositions)
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα... τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται.
"For in Him all things were created... all things were created through Him and for Him."

The prepositional phrase ἐν αὐτῷ ("in Him") demonstrates a locative or instrumental sense. The use of the Dative case without prepositions could similarly convey such meaning, depending on the construction.
3. Hypothetical Dative Constructions

If the Dative were used directly without prepositions in these contexts, it could still express Jesus' role in creation:

Instrumental Dative: τὰ πάντα αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη → "All things were created by Him."
Dative of Advantage (Benefit): τὰ πάντα ἐκτίσθη αὐτῷ → "All things were created for Him."

Such constructions align with standard Greek syntax and theological principles.

4. Dative in Broader Creation Theology
While explicit examples in the Dative case are less common than prepositions like ἐν or δι’, the Dative retains the capacity to describe:

Jesus as the agent of creation (by whom creation occurs).
So--
The Dative case can indeed be used of Jesus as the Creator, especially in its instrumental or beneficiary functions. While the New Testament typically employs prepositions with Genitive cases (e.g., δι’ αὐτοῦ), the Dative is syntactically and theologically appropriate for expressing Jesus' agency or the purpose of creation.
Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics

Wallace discusses the Dative case in detail, including its uses for instrumentality, advantage, and reference, which are applicable to how the Dative can describe Jesus' role in creation.
See particularly chapters on the Dative of Means and Advantage.

A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research

Robertson provides comprehensive insights into the functions of the Dative case, especially in Koine Greek, highlighting its use for agency and instrumentality.

C.F.D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek

Moule discusses how cases like the Dative and prepositional phrases function interchangeably in many New Testament contexts.

The New Testament Greek Text (Textus Receptus and Critical Editions)

Examples from John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, and Colossians 1:16 were directly cited from the Greek text, which demonstrates prepositions governing the Genitive but implies meanings that could theoretically be expressed with the Dative.

Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) Greek-English Lexicon

The semantic range of the Dative case and its uses in broader Greek literature affirm its capacity to convey instrumental or beneficiary relationships.

Each of these sources emphasizes that the Dative, while not always employed in creation texts, is syntactically valid for describing Jesus' role as Creator.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

OK, now it’s my turn to be surprised....not many in Christendom agree that Jesus is a created being, even though Jesus himself says that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

I agreed to what you said, I quote -

He gave up that glorious state to become a lowly human who was to sacrifice his life because Adam didn’t love his God enough to sacrifice his wife for him. He chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to lose her.....creating the necessity for all his children to need a rescuer. If Adam had never sinned he never would have died…..and Christ’s sacrifice would never have been needed.

Nothing wrong with what you said. Yes, Jesus preexisting before creation, sharing glory with the Father, actively in creation with the Father, as you said He gave up that glorious state.

This is what we know about Jesus before creation and before He descended from heaven (John 3:13), giving up as you said -- He gave up that glorious state -- and became (incarnated as) a human.

It begs the question, who is Jesus before creation, before humans were created.

Surely He wasn't a human before creation.

So who was the person Jesus before creation?

In the hope we are still in sync.

In my experience, not many people have ‘the big picture’ as to why Jesus came as redeemer in the first place, and how his sacrifice makes “atonement” for the whole human race. It was never in the original plan...
God never intended for humans to go to heaven…he designed them for everlasting life here in paradise on earth.

Agree.

I’m not sure that you really agree if you are a trinitarian….

I have to.

But as I said from the start, let's investigate what we have in common.

I answered all these points in post #2360….

Jesus was “with” his Father in creation….as John 1:1 and Col 1:15-17 clearly state, as the agency “through” whom all things came into existence.….John 1:2-3 also tell us this.

Here we start to differ. Your truth (the word was a god and the word became flesh) vs my truth that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.

And this translation difference causes the deep split between us. In my translation John explicitly states the Word (God) became flesh. In your translation "a god" became flesh.

And Houston, we are in big trouble.

Jesus has a God even in heaven, (Rev 3:12)…..so he can’t be God.

There are many passages that speak of the of deity of Jesus than John 1 alone, but I don't want to make it an issue right now as my intend is to explore what we have in common instead of what divides us.

 

[Johann]

I agreed to what you said, I quote -

He gave up that glorious state to become a lowly human who was to sacrifice his life because Adam didn’t love his God enough to sacrifice his wife for him. He chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to lose her.....creating the necessity for all his children to need a rescuer. If Adam had never sinned he never would have died…..and Christ’s sacrifice would never have been needed.

Nothing wrong with what you said. Yes, Jesus preexisting before creation, sharing glory with the Father, actively in creation with the Father, as you said He gave up that glorious state.

This is what we know about Jesus before creation and before He descended from heaven (John 3:13), giving up as you said -- He gave up that glorious state -- and became (incarnated as) a human.

It begs the question, who is Jesus before creation, before humans were created.

Surely He wasn't a human before creation.

So who was the person Jesus before creation?

In the hope we are still in sync.


Agree.


I have to.

But as I said from the start, let's investigate what we have in common.


Here we start to differ. Your truth (the word was a god and the word became flesh) vs my truth that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.

And this translation difference causes the deep split between us. In my translation John explicitly states the Word (God) became flesh. In your translation "a god" became flesh.

And Houston, we are in big trouble.



There are many passages that speak of the of deity of Jesus than John 1 alone, but I don't want to make it an issue right now as my intend is to explore what we have in common instead of what divides us.

Jesus did not relinquish His Deity brother-and correct, Houston, we HAVE a problem.

J.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Your critique misrepresents the grammar and lexical range of ποιέω and αἰών in Hebrews 1:2.

No, it doesn't. ποιέω seems to include objects in the LXX, so I am wrong there. While ποιέω means to perform just about anything; this is not updated in the lexicons. But anything other than permanent precedents for αἰών or even other than change is bad. It is not a synonym of for κοσμος.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Jesus did not relinquish His Deity brother-and correct, Houston, we HAVE a problem.

J.

Then we should be all be paranoid what a great role model which God makes himself to be. rubbish.

 

[ProDeo]

And we do not earn salvation at all by the way. This is by grace of God.

What ??

This is what I said -

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Did you misread ?

 

[MonoBiblical]

The Dative case in Greek can indeed be used in contexts where Jesus is described as the Creator.

No, it can't according to the "basics". The syntactical guides do a false cherry pick for this. The syntactical guides are guesses as to how the "basics" work. The dative of secondary object doesn't work with the preposition εν.

Secondly, you fail to question Robertson erroneous 8 case Greek system. There are only 5 cases and 9 inflections in Greek noun declensions except perhaps a neuter case.

 

[APAK]

While its true that so very many trinitarians now follow another spirit
And its hard to even find some that speak truth and live according to THE TRUTH , THE SPIRIT .
Bud i aint never found one WHO DENIES the DIETY of CHRIST who walks according to the SPIRIT .
Now we do have us a massive problem with the churches today . MANY do work as one
all right , the ONLY problem is the ONE they work UNDER and cliam and believe to be GOD and HIS LOVE
AINT GOD OR HIS LOVE . a nasty delusion cloaked under the word love has infiltrated most all of christendom .
It is merging all the false religoins as well as many , so very many , within Christendom
to be as one , to have common ground , to believe THE LIE that GOD is in all religons
and everyone who loveth is born of GOD . ONLY the problem is THEIR VERSION OF LOVETH
and everyone who loveth , SURE SEEMS TO ACCEPTS SIN and lies and has teeth and anger agaisnt THE TRUTH
that exposes thier sin and unbelief . SO that is known as A DELUISION . a strong one too
as it unites the LOST to be as one under what they all think IS GOD , IS LOVE and is loving . AND IT SURE
hates on the words of GOD , the WORD of GOD , the saints who wont conform . NOT lookinggood my friend . Not looking good at all .

So when in your past did you 'find out' that Jesus is a deity as is Father?

 

[Johann]

No, it doesn't. ποιέω seems to include objects in the LXX, so I am wrong there. While ποιέω means to perform just about anything; this is not updated in the lexicons. But anything other than permanent precedents for αἰών or even other than change is bad. It is not a synonym of for κοσμος.

Error.


The Meaning of ποιέω (poieō)
The verb ποιέω has a wide range of meanings, and its usage spans actions, creation, and making, including the creation of permanent things. It is not limited merely to performing actions or preparations, but it also refers to creating or bringing into being, especially in the context of divine creation.

a) ποιέω in the Septuagint (LXX)

In the LXX, ποιέω is used extensively to refer to creation or making things that have permanence or are enduring. This includes divine acts of creation.

Genesis 1:1 (LXX): ἐποίησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν ("God made the heavens and the earth").

Psalm 8:3 (LXX): ὅτι ἐποίησας αὐτοὺς πάντας ("For You made them all").

Isaiah 45:7 (LXX): ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ποιῶν τὸ φῶς καὶ ποιῶν τὸ σκότος ("I am the one who makes light and creates darkness").

In these examples, ποιέω clearly involves the act of creating something permanent or foundational, not simply performing a temporary action.

2. αἰών and κοσμος (aion vs. kosmos)

It is important to distinguish between αἰών (aion, "ages" or "worlds") and κόσμος (kosmos, "world"). While these two terms overlap conceptually at times, they are not synonymous.

a) The Usage of αἰών (aion)

The word αἰών refers to ages, epochs, or eras-that is, to long periods of time or to the entire created order in its temporal and eternal scope. It conveys the idea of the cosmic or historical framework in which creation unfolds.

Hebrews 1:2: δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ("Through whom also He made the worlds").

Hebrews 11:3: πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ("By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God").

1 Corinthians 2:7: ἡ ἀπόκρυφος σοφία ἣν προώρισεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων ("The hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages").

b) The Usage of κόσμος (kosmos)
Kosmos, on the other hand, is typically used to refer to the ordered universe, the world in a spatial and physical sense. This is often contrasted with αἰών in the New Testament, as in passages where the creation is both seen in terms of time (aion) and space (kosmos).

John 1:10: ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν ("He was in the world").

1 John 2:15: μὴ ἀγαπᾶτε τὸν κόσμον ("Do not love the world").

3. Addressing your Critique of ποιέω as Non-Creational

While it is true that ποιέω can refer to performing or doing something, it does have a well-established semantic range that includes creating or making-especially in the context of divine actions like creation.

To argue that ποιέω here refers to merely performing an action that does not result in permanent creation is inconsistent with the broader biblical and linguistic evidence.

In Hebrews 1:2, the context clearly suggests that ἐποίησεν refers to the creation of the worlds (or ages), something that involves bringing about something permanent and lasting.

Your argument that αἰών should not be used in the sense of creating worlds, but only as "permanent precedents," fails to account for its consistent usage in creation contexts, both in the New Testament and the Septuagint.

In Hebrews 11:3, for example, κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ("the worlds were framed") clearly refers to the creation of the universe, supporting the interpretation of αἰών in a broader, cosmological sense.

Your argument that ποιέω cannot refer to creation of αἰῶνας (worlds/ages) is not supported by the textual evidence, both from the LXX and New Testament usage. The verb ποιέω includes the meaning of creating or making something, especially when the context involves divine creation or the formation of something permanent, as seen in Hebrews 1:2.

The distinction between αἰών and κόσμος does not affect the validity of interpreting ποιέω as a term for creation in this context.

Since you referred to my assertion that Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity as "rubbish," we are focused on the Scriptures and are called to rightly divide the word of truth.

Don’t respond; go back to the basics.

J.

 

[APAK]

What ??

This is what I said -

As we know we are saved by grace alone, there is nothing to earn.

Did you misread ?

Look, let's be honest here. In your previous reply, you struggled to know the difference between redemption and salvation and then you still do not understand why Jesus the Christ had to become the final example of the burnt offering for our redemption, who met the legal requirements of God. And in this process that is not avoidable, his own redemption as well. I think you do not understand this last part at all, as most do not....it does take some study that 'churches' usually skip over, and deliberately.

And then you were vague in your thoughts as you suddenly spouted out about salvation not being earned. This then told me you were confused. We were speaking of redemption until that time of your remark when you now addressed salvation....reread your post again...

..off to other pastures...have a great and warm day..APAK

 

[Johann]

No, it can't according to the "basics". The syntactical guides do a false cherry pick for this. The syntactical guides are guesses as to how the "basics" work. The dative of secondary object doesn't work with the preposition εν.

Secondly, you fail to question Robertson erroneous 8 case Greek system. There are only 5 cases and 9 inflections in Greek noun declensions except perhaps a neuter case.

The Dative case can be used in instrumental, beneficiary, and locative functions, which directly apply to descriptions of creation.


Instrumental Dative: Expresses the means or instrument by which something is done (e.g., creation through Christ).

Dative of Advantage: Shows to whom something is done (e.g., creation for Christ).

Locative Dative: Can describe the sphere or realm in which an action occurs (e.g., "in Him").

Example:
John 1:3: πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο ("All things were made through Him").
The preposition δι’ with the genitive case clearly points to instrumentality. This same meaning can be conveyed with the Dative case, and the syntactic guides rightly acknowledge this flexibility in Koine Greek.

b) Greek Syntax Guides and Their Reliability

Your claim that syntactical guides are "guesses" is a misunderstanding of their role. These guides are grounded in centuries of linguistic analysis, which account for a variety of sentence structures. They are based on both actual biblical usage and classical Greek traditions.

The Dative in the context of creation passages such as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is in line with traditional Greek grammar, which allows for the expression of instrumentality and purpose (creation by Christ or through Him).

2. Questioning Robertson’s Case System

a) Robertson's 8-Case System

It is true that the Greek language has a traditional system of five cases: Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, and Vocative. However, Robertson's 8-case system does not contradict the traditional view of Greek grammar but is a more detailed analysis of the functional nuances within those core cases.

Robertson's system is a detailed syntactical framework that accounts for the many roles a single case might play in different contexts. For example, the Dative can serve various functions beyond a mere "secondary object" role, including indirect object, instrumentality, or advantage.

While the standard system identifies five cases, Robertson and other scholars like Wallace offer a deeper understanding of how these cases interact within real-world sentence constructions, offering clearer distinctions between functions like dative of possession, dative of means, dative of advantage, and dative of reference.

b) Inflections in Greek Declensions

Your statement that Greek has "9 inflections" is imprecise and depends on context.

It is common for grammarians to count various forms of declension (e.g., singular, plural, dual forms for some nouns) as part of the inflectional system, but the core number of cases remains five.

The inflections (or declensions) are grammatical variations of nouns to express these cases, and this doesn't alter the fundamental structure of Greek grammar in terms of its five-case system.


The Dative case can certainly be used in contexts describing Jesus as the Creator, as seen in passages such as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, and syntactical guides that reflect this are grounded in centuries of linguistic study, not "guesswork."

The Dative of instrumentality and benefit is a well-established feature of Greek grammar, and the assertion that it cannot be used in such contexts is incorrect.

Additionally, while Robertson’s expanded case system (including 8 cases) is more detailed, it does not undermine the core structure of Greek grammar, which retains the five traditional cases, each of which has specific functions.

Enough of this-one more word and on ignore you go.

Jesus is the Creator, and if you choose to dismiss this as "rubbish," that's fine by me-there's already enough unchecked false teaching on this forum.

J.

 

[MA2444]

@Johann @MA2444 @rebuilder 454

2022 RAM 1500 pickup

Which Rear would you choose? 3.21 or 3.92

Prolly the 3.92.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not a good argument.

Literal Translation:
"For in Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

2. Analysis of Prepositions and Syntax
ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō):

This phrase is commonly translated as "in Him," but it can also denote the sphere or agency through which creation occurs. In this context, the dative case implies more than an indirect object ("to whom" or "for whom"); it emphasizes that creation was carried out "in relation to" or "by means of" Jesus.

This is consistent with the theological theme that Christ is the active agent of creation, as supported by other passages (e.g., John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2).

δι’ αὐτοῦ (di' autou):

The preposition διά with the genitive case signifies agency or instrumentality-"through Him."

This unambiguously identifies Jesus as the means through which all creation came into being.
This explicitly counters your claim that Paul did not attribute creation to Jesus.

εἰς αὐτὸν (eis auton):

The preposition εἰς indicates purpose or goal—"for Him."

Creation is not only through Christ but also for Christ, affirming His supremacy and centrality in all things.

The repetition of ἐν, διὰ, and εἰς emphasizes Jesus' integral role in creation, leaving no ambiguity about His active involvement as Creator.

3. Parallel Passages That Confirm Jesus as Creator

John 1:3 (Textus Receptus):
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

By him (di' autou). By means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation. The Logos is John’s explanation of the creation of the universe. The author of Hebrews (Heb_1:2) names God’s Son as the one “through whom he made the ages.” Paul pointedly asserts that “the all things were created in him” (Christ) and “the all things stand created through him and unto him” (Col_1:16). Hence it is not a peculiar doctrine that John here enunciates. In 1Co_8:6, Paul distinguishes between the Father as the primary source (ex hou) of the all things and the Son as the intermediate agent as here (di' hou).

The preposition δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) directly identifies Jesus as the Creator.

The phrase "without Him nothing was made" excludes the possibility of Christ being a mere beneficiary of creation.

Hebrews 1:2:
δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
"Through whom also He made the worlds."

Again, διά with the genitive clearly indicates Jesus' role as the agent of creation.

1 Corinthians 8:6:
καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.
"And one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist."

The repeated δι’ οὗ affirms Jesus as Creator.

Your assertion that Paul only portrays Jesus as the beneficiary of creation and not its Creator misunderstands the grammatical use of ἐν, διά, and εἰς in Colossians 1:16. These prepositions collectively describe Jesus as the sphere, agent, and purpose of creation.

Your claim that ἐν αὐτῷ ("in Him") should only mean "with Him in view" is overly restrictive and inconsistent with Paul's broader theology. Other Pauline texts (e.g., 1 Corinthians 8:6) explicitly state that creation occurred through Jesus, leaving no ambiguity.

Your argument ignores the repeated Pauline theme of Jesus’ divine role in creation, which is corroborated by John and the author of Hebrews.

5. Conclusion
Paul unambiguously teaches that Jesus is the Creator, not merely the beneficiary of creation. The syntax of Colossians 1:16, along with parallel passages, demonstrates that Jesus is the active agent ("through Him"), the encompassing sphere ("in Him"), and the ultimate purpose ("for Him") of all creation.

The claim that "Paul never suggested that Jesus created everything" is directly refuted by the consistent testimony of Scripture.

By him - In this place it is affirmed that “creation” was effected by “the Word,” or the Son of God. In Gen_1:1, it is said that the Being who created the heavens and the earth was God. In Psa_102:25-28, this work is ascribed to Yahweh. The “Word,” or the Son of God, is therefore appropriately called “God.” The work of “creation” is uniformly ascribed in the Scriptures to the Second Person of the Trinity. See Col_1:16; Heb_1:2, Heb_1:10. By this is meant, evidently, that he was the agent, or the efficient cause, by which the universe was made. There is no higher proof of omnipotence than the work of creation; and, hence, God often appeals to that work to prove that he is the true God, in opposition to idols. See Isa_40:18-28; Jer_10:3-16; Psa_24:2; Psa_39:11; Pro_3:19. It is absurd to say that God can invest a creature with omnipotence. If He can make a creature omnipotent, He can make him omniscient, and can in the same way make him omnipresent, and infinitely wise and good; that is, He can invest a creature with all His own attributes, or make another being like Himself, or, which is the same thing, there could be two Gods, or as many Gods as He should choose to make. But this is absurd! The Being, therefore, that “created” all things must be divine; and, since this work is ascribed to Jesus Christ, and as it is uniformly in the Scriptures declared to be the work of God, Jesus Christ is therefore equal with the Father.
Barnes.

J.

Your argument is based on Lexicons and grammars that are already biased in favor of Trinitarian beliefs. I encourage you to face the facts of the New Testament witness and make sense of the passage in light of those facts. The fact is, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Give this fact, Paul is not arguing that Jesus created the world.

 

[David in NJ]

Prolly the 3.92.

Test drove two RAMs - one with the 3.21 and the other with the 3.92

LOVED the 3.92 = Clear WINNER

However, the 3.92 is a Black truck

Do not like Red, white or black colors in a truck

LOVE Dark Metallic Grey and Dark Blue but cannot find one with low miles, Crew Cab and 6.5 Bed length

Buying the Silver RAM with only 7.5k miles

Thanks for responding

IMPORTANT: Black RAM will miss the Rapture

JESUS is coming in the Clouds and we all know that 'Every Cloud has a SILVER Lining'........Rapture Ready