The 6th seal great tribulation

[tailgator]

Antiochus IV is the king who by bribery selected who the high priest of the Jewish religious hierarchy would be. The Maccabeans opposed the move and rebelled against Antiochus IV.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

kjv
Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

The "exploits" is referring to the Maccabean Revolt.

Ok ,so you believe Daniel 11:31 is about antiochus as well

Now we look at the next verer.

Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

What is the testimony these wise leaders are being killed for during that time?

 

[tailgator]

Exactly! It's obvious to a lot of us that the vile person in verse 21 is the very same person that comes to his end in verse 45. And it's also obvious to a lot of us that the vile person in verse 21 is meaning the little horn in Daniel 8. Except @Douggg insists the little horn is the future AC but the vile person in ch 11 is A4E. Pretty much everyone else, regardless who they take both to mean are at least remaining consistent about it. Unlike @Douggg who thinks it means one person in ch 8 then an entirely different person in ch 11. Pretty much everyone else thinks the little horn in Daniel 8 and the vile person in ch 11, these are the same person.

I agree the vile man in daniel 11:21 is the man of sin who comes to his end in Daniel 11:45.
But I don't believe the vile man is the little horn.
I believe the vile man will give the little horn his armed forces to take away the daily sacrifice.

Daniel 8:12
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Remember ,the beast in revelation 13 recieves a second beast who will practice his authority on his behalf.


Revelation 13
It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.


It is after the king of the norths armed forces arrive in Israel ,that the saints in Israel are persecuted and killed in Daniel 11:33-35.This corresponds to the saints being killed after the second beast arrives .

Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[Davidpt]

Verse 29 does not say "after the great tribulation of those days" .

Verse 29 is indicating when the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-17 will take place, which is about the appearance of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [most of the great tribulation is over, but not all] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [like it says in Revelation 6:12-14]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven [like is indicated in Revelation 6:15-17] : and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The appearance of the Son of man in heaven, puts fear into the wicked of the world and causes them to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies.

At least your interpretation has the beginning of great tribulation preceeding the beginning of the 6th seal. Except you are convinced that when the 6th seal events happen, great tribulation is still in progress and not quite finished yet.

Then you appear to contradict that by arguing that the text doesn't say after great tribulation of those days. Yet, the text says after the tribulation of those days, which has to include verse 21 since it is not reasonable that verse 21 cannot be meaning the trib of those days. Of course it means them, the days involving verse 21.

For example. After Monday it will be Tuesday, no longer Monday. No one would say, after Monday it will be Tuesday, that it is still Monday immediately after Monday is finished for the day. IOW, Monday isn't still in progress after Tuesday immediately follows it. So why would great tribulation still be in progress after the 6th seal events immediately follow it?

I know, you are arguing the text doesn't say after the great trib of those days. But even so, I don't see any logic in that and this little analogy I used demonstrates that.

In order for the 6th seal events to be immediately after something, the trib of those days, in this case, what they immediately follow has to be finished first, the same way Monday has to be finished first before it can be Tuesday. And once it is Tuesday, Monday is entirely in the past. Now just replace Tuesday with the 6th seal events and replace Monday with great tribulation. It's the same concept.

 

[Davidpt]

I agree the vile man in daniel 11:21 is the man of sin who comes to his end in Daniel 11:45.
But I don't believe the vile man is the little horn.
I believe the vile man will give the little horn his armed forces to take away the daily sacrifice.

Daniel 8:12
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Remember ,the beast in revelation 13 recieves a second beast who will practice his authority on his behalf.


Revelation 13
It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.


It is after the king of the norths armed forces arrive in Israel ,that the saints in Israel are persecuted and killed in Daniel 11:33-35.This corresponds to the saints being killed after the second beast arrives .

Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Whether you are right or not, that I don't know, but at least your interpretation has the little horn and vile person involving the same era of time, the same events. Therefore, your interpretation appears to at least be valid, unlike @Douggg where he has these passages involving entirely different eras of time and entirely different events separated by thousands of years. And besides, as of verse 21 in Daniel 11 the vile person is a major player. What then became of him if verse 45 isn't pertaining to that? How could he be a major player one minute, then the next minute he no longer is, and that no one ever informs us as to what became of him? He just disappears from Daniel 11 without no explanation as to what happened to him. That sounds reasonable...not. Therefore, verse 45 is still meaning him. Now we know what becomes of him eventually.

 

[tailgator]

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Look at the text here. Obviously, verse 21 is fulfilled before verse 29 is. How then is it reasonable that great tribulation starts as of verse 29 when verse 21 already places it in the past?

How is it reasonable that the tribulation of those days is not meaning verse 21, great tribulation?

There is no great tribulation as of and after verse 29. Great tribulation involves verse 21 and verse 29 plainly tells us that great tribulation is now in the past and not future still.

How does it make sense, that after great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, great tribulation follows that, as in 2 great tribulations, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?

What part of--no, nor ever shall be--are you not grasping? It means it can't be equalled nor surpassed, as in an even greater tribulation. Therefore, there is no great tribulation followed by yet another great tribulation. IOW, Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving this same great tribulation, a global tribulation.

Jesus was quoting from the book of Daniel .

This is the great tribulation and the verse Jesus was quoting.
Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

Notice the dead are being raised when the great tribulation begins.
Notice,this great tribulation takes place after the king of the north goes forth with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.

Daniel 11:44
But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

This great tribulation takes place 3.5 years after the persecution of the saints begins in Daniel 11:33 .

Daniel 11:33-34
“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.

This persecution of the saints in Daniel 11:33-34 ends when the great tribulation begins in Daniel 12:1.




I also want you to notice that Jesus said the great earthquakes such as in the 6,th seal when the stars of heaven fall to the earth,are caused when nation attacks nation.This corresponds to the king of the north going forth to destroy and innigilateany to n Daniel 11:44 before the great tribulation begins in Daniel 12:1.


Mathew 24
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


Make no mistake,when the king of the north goes forth to destroy and annihilate many ,all these things will be filled and there will be great tribulation.

Imagine Donald Trump sending the US armed forces to kill everyone from Iran to Egypt.You get the picture.

 

[tailgator]

Whether you are right or not, that I don't know, but at least your interpretation has the little horn and vile person involving the same era of time, the same events. Therefore, your interpretation appears to at least be valid, unlike @Douggg where he has these passages involving entirely different eras of time and entirely different events separated by thousands of years.

I believe the vile man will be giving little Israel his armed forces this year.Ive been expecting it for a long time
Then ,little Israel will kill it's christians like Jesus prophecied.

Mathew 23:34
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.


They will be killed as their breathren were killed before them.


Revelation 6
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

 

[Douggg]

Ok ,so you believe Daniel 11:31 is about antiochus as well

Now we look at the next verer.

Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

What is the testimony these wise leaders are being killed for during that time?

What translation are you using ?

Same verse from the kjv....

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

The testimony of the wise leaders to the people will be to stick to the one true God, and not to make idols, nor worship idols. As well as following the other commandments that God gave them to live by.

 

[Douggg]

At least your interpretation has the beginning of great tribulation preceeding the beginning of the 6th seal. Except you are convinced that when the 6th seal events happen, great tribulation is still in progress and not quite finished yet.

Then you appear to contradict that by arguing that the text doesn't say after great tribulation of those days. Yet, the text says after the tribulation of those days, which has to include verse 21 since it is not reasonable that verse 21 cannot be meaning the trib of those days. Of course it means them, the days involving verse 21.

For example. After Monday it will be Tuesday, no longer Monday. No one would say, after Monday it will be Tuesday, that it is still Monday immediately after Monday is finished for the day. IOW, Monday isn't still in progress after Tuesday immediately follows it. So why would great tribulation still be in progress after the 6th seal events immediately follow it?

I know, you are arguing the text doesn't say after the great trib of those days. But even so, I don't see any logic in that and this little analogy I used demonstrates that.

In order for the 6th seal events to be immediately after something, the trib of those days, in this case, what they immediately follow has to be finished first, the same way Monday has to be finished first before it can be Tuesday. And once it is Tuesday, Monday is entirely in the past. Now just replace Tuesday with the 6th seal events and replace Monday with great tribulation. It's the same concept.

The tribulation of those days - as far as length of time will be 1290 days. (Daniel 12:11)

The great tribulation - as far as length of time will be 1335 days. (Daniel 12:12)

What happens in the 45 days difference ? Look at my chart below, in the blue shaded area.

 

[Douggg]

@Davidpt

I want you to look at this chart of mine. Down in the lower right hand corner you are going to see the Great Tribulation 1335 days, and the tribulation of those days 1290 days. And the sixth seal, and the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

And the 45 days that the armies assemble at Armageddon. And the 7th vial of God's wrath of the Great Tribulation being poured out (which is why the Great Tribulation is not over until then).

 

[tailgator]

What translation are you using ?

Same verse from the kjv....

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

The testimony of the wise leaders to the people will be to stick to the one true God, and not to make idols, nor worship idols. As well as following the other commandments that God gave them to live by.

You believe their testimony will be?
We are still talking about the people who know God from the previous verse


Daniel 11:32-33
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


It's the people who know God in verse 32 ,that understand and testify in verse 33.
They are being killed for their testimony as revelation 20:4 says

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

It's the people who know God in verse 32 ,that understand and testify in verse 33.
They are being killed for their testimony as revelation 20:4 says

No, the people who know their God in Daniel 11:32 is talking about the Maccabees and the "exploits" in that verse is referring to the Maccabean revolt.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tailgator]

No, the people who know their God in Daniel 11:32 is talking about the Maccabees and the "exploits" in that verse is referring to the Maccabean revolt.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Maccabees didn't know God..
The only people who knew God before Jesus came were prophets.The Maccabees were not prophets.

The people who know God and die for their testimony are followers of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

The Maccabees didn't know God..
The only people who knew God before Jesus came were prophets.The Maccabees were not prophets.

The people who know God and die for their testimony are followers of Jesus.

The Maccabees opposed the statue of Zeus being placed int the temple. So they believed in the One True God.

Jesus had not come into the world at that time. The events involving Antiochus IV, and the Maccabees opposition to him, were 160 years before Christ.

 

[tailgator]

The Maccabees opposed the statue of Zeus being placed int the temple. So they believed in the One True God.

Jesus had not come into the world at that time. The events involving Antiochus IV, and the Maccabees opposition to him, were 160 years before Christ.

And the Maccabees did not know God.
They had not received the holy Ghost.They were not annointed prophets of Israel.They were just as unclean as the Pharisees sect that was founded in 167 BC.

The holy people(saints)Daniel writes about in Daniel 7 and 11 know God.They have received the holy Ghost and have been made clean.They follow the Lamb of God.

 

[Douggg]

And the Maccabees did not know God.
They had not received the holy Ghost.They were not annointed prophets of Israel.They were just as unclean as the Pharisees sect that was founded in 167 BC.

The holy people(saints)Daniel writes about in Daniel 7 and 11 know God.They have received the holy Ghost and have been made clean.They follow the Lamb of God.

The Maccabees were following the ten commandments. The Maccabees opposed the Greek religion that Antiochus was trying to force upon them, by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple. They believed in the One True God, Who gave the ten commandments.

You, like the Maccabees, obey these commandments in red from God, right ?

Exodus 20:

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[Douggg]

The end times abomination of desolation will be a statue image - of the beast-king. In essence, it will be an idol placed on the temple mount and the population of Jerusalem told to worship it - violating the ten commandments that God said not to worship, bow down, to any graven image, nor have any other gods but Him.

Satan will indwell the image, causing the image to breathe and speak. The false prophet will claim that it is the divine power that has entered the statue image, that causes it to come alive and speak.

And so everyone who worships the statue image of the beast-king will unknowingly be worshiping Satan, as it says in Revelation 13:4.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[tailgator]

The Maccabees were following the ten commandments. The Maccabees opposed the Greek religion that Antiochus was trying to force upon them, by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple. They believed in the One True God, Who gave the ten commandments.

You, like the Maccabees, obey these commandments in red from God, right ?

Exodus 20:

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The Maccabees were not partakers of the new covenant and did not keep the ten commandments.

The law of God was not written on their hearts.
Something tells me that you are not partaker of the new covenant and believe like the Maccabees that you keep the laws of God without Christ.


The Maccabees didn't know God any more than the Pharisees .

 

[Douggg]

The Maccabees were not partakers of the new covenant and did not keep the ten commandments.

The law of God was not written on their hearts.
Something tells me that you are not partaker of the new covenant and believe like the Maccabees that you keep the laws of God without Christ.


The Maccabees didn't know God any more than the Pharisees .

What kind of activities were the Jews conducting in the temple prior to Antiochus placing a statue image of Zeus in the temple?

 

[tailgator]

What kind of activities were the Jews conducting in the temple prior to Antiochus placing a statue image of Zeus in the temple?

Same activities as in Jesus time there.

They were probably devouring the houses of widows as Jesus taught

They wanted money.

 

[Douggg]

Same activities as in Jesus time there.

They were probably devouring the houses of widows as Jesus taught

They wanted money.

I think you are having a hard time acknowledging that the Jews were worshiping God in the temple.