Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[David in NJ]

The latter, IMO

"I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I distressed (agony) until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50).

Why would HE not have agony???

 

[APAK]

Maybe he is referring to the type of philosophy that seeks to 'think' deeply without the knowledge of the Truth

not quite. this is a question that does not need the Spirit to answer it as I just framed it...maybe if I get a bite then it might get very spiritual indeed

 

[APAK]

"I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I distressed (agony) until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50).

Why would HE not have agony???

hmmm, you will have to elaborate on what you are speaking about David, to be fair....explain yourself more clearly so I can form an opinion at least. I must have completely missed the point of what F2F was asking then

 

[David in NJ]

not quite. this is a question that does not need the Spirit to answer it as I just framed it...maybe if I get a bite then it might get very spiritual indeed

i enjoy all the sciences but i do not give myself to worshipping at their altars


Let's think:
Science, critical thinking, deduction, anthropology, etc etc = gifts to man to keep him preoccupied with so less people are killing each other
especially Sports
But then it can works in reverse as well..............

 

[face2face]

dammit, you're right

But you are so wrong!

 

[David in NJ]

hmmm, you will have to elaborate on what you are speaking about David, to be fair....explain yourself more clearly so I can form an opinion at least. I must have completely missed the point of what F2F was asking then

From what f2f has given, it seems that he and @Wrangler desperately desire to find JESUS in sin as all of humanity.

Because the Word became flesh HE experienced PAIN and HE knew what HE had to endure = just the thought is AGONY

 

[David in NJ]

But you are so wrong!

dammit, you're write

 

[face2face]

"I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I distressed (agony) until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50).

Why would HE not have agony???

Don't worry David, for you he didn't - life and temptation was a breeze!

 

[face2face]

The latter, IMO

The state of being blind while confessing a confidence in Christ looks terrible from where I'm sitting. Its a debarcle for those holding tightly to the dogma.

F2F

 

[face2face]

From what f2f has given, it seems that he and @Wrangler desperately desire to find JESUS in sin as all of humanity.

Jesus represented us in everyway - if he is God he could not be a High Priest taken from among men! How could God condemn sin in the nature of Christ if it was not there to condemn?

So the question you cannot answer is this:

How was sin represented in the Lord Jesus Christ if as you say he had Divine nature?

Because the Word became flesh HE experienced PAIN and HE knew what HE had to endure = just the thought is AGONY

Only the possibility of sin and shame creates the daily agony.

But the Lord GOD helps me; therefore I have not been disgraced; therefore I have set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. Isaiah 50:7

You view makes a mockery of every verse in the Bible which speaks to a suffering servant who resited sin and shame. You also make a mockery of the trust Christ placed in his Heavenly Father

F2F

 

[face2face]

He genuinely understands our pain and sympathises with our temptations because he was truly human, and experienced the very sufferings we endure—and more! If he was never truly one of us, he cannot understand us in the way Scripture describes and could not have died for our sins. To believe in Jesus and his atoning work we must accept he is not God.
F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Don't worry David, for you he didn't - life and temptation was a breeze!

PAIN is not equated to temptation.

PAIN can be an avenue for temptation = as we shall SEE here

Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him. 40When He came to the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

41And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

45When He rose up from prayer, and had come to His disciples, He found them sleeping from sorrow. 46Then He said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, lest you enter into temptation.”

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus represented us in everyway - if he is God he could not be a High Priest taken from among men! How could God condemn sin in the nature of Christ if it was not there to condemn?

So the question you cannot answer is this:

How was sin represented in the Lord Jesus Christ if as you say he had Divine nature?


Only the possibility of sin and shame creates the daily agony.

But the Lord GOD helps me; therefore I have not been disgraced; therefore I have set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. Isaiah 50:7

You view makes a mockery of every verse in the Bible which speaks to a suffering servant who resited sin and shame. You also make a mockery of the trust Christ placed in his Heavenly Father

F2F

Only the possibility of sin and shame creates the daily agony.

The PAIN, in and by itself is the AGONY

The SHAME of bearing our sins on the Cross is an INTERNAL AGONY

There is no sin in agonizing over PAIN and ABUSE and being HATED in the way which the LORD endured for us.

 

[face2face]

@APAK @Wrangler

Another issue theologians come across when debating the Trinity is they argue that the Trinity is 'implicit' in the New Testament and was 'implicitly understood' in the 1st century AD.

Any and all attempts to prove this have failed everytime!

They mention that evidence for an 'implicit Trinity' in the NT includes various 'triadic statements' such as Matt 28:19. However not one debater has ever claimed that these verses prove or explain the Trinity, but simply that they support an 'implicit Trinitarianism.

This begs the question of why the Trinity is merely ‘implicit’ in a book inspired by divine revelation, spanning almost 4,000 years of history, throughout which God claimed to be providing humanity with a complete picture of His identity and purpose.

Trinitarian debaters again have no answer for this, nor can they explain why the Trinity was not revealed in the Old Testament.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The PAIN, in and by itself is the AGONY

The SHAME of bearing our sins on the Cross is an INTERNAL AGONY

There is no sin in agonizing over PAIN and ABUSE and being HATED in the way which the LORD endured for us.

The verse speaks to the agonizing pain of resisting temptation daily, not to any physical harm done to Him. As you should know, He was protected until the time came when He was no longer protected.

He rejected the shame due to him not having any personal sin of his own, although he felt the shame of sin on the cross! Heb 12:2

It's clear you do not understand "Baptism" and how its the putting to death the flesh daily as he did.

Let me show you Paul's teaching on this:

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

Why are we baptized "into" his death?
What happened in his death which freed us from death?
What was achieved by God "through" that death which means we are no longer condemned?

Can you use Paul's teacing elsewhere to show an understanidng?

F2F

 

[face2face]

My saying that Peter's words show that it isn't impossible for us to resist the temptation of evil doesn't negate the Holy Trinity.

It demonstrates your belief that Christ shared our nature in every respect; otherwise, God would be showing that sin is impossible to overcome, which would leave you with a false example in Christ.

Further to this...you can't have God who finds sin repugnant, dwelling in sins flesh.

You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he? Hab 1:13

The "work around" is to invent duality - no other way!

No doubt you have seen me ask Johann to provide evidence of this duality of natures which he has failed to provide.

However, what you do know and believe from the Apostles is Christ was raised up out of sin's flesh to represent us perfectly in that nature.

Do you find it ironic T believers do not undestand the very first first of Matthews Gospel?

This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham: Matt 1:1

Such is the deception of those who have a god-man

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

The verse speaks to the agonizing pain of resisting temptation daily, not to any physical harm done to Him. As you should know, He was protected until the time came when He was no longer protected.

He rejected the shame due to him not having any personal sin of his own, although he felt the shame of sin on the cross! Heb 12:2

It's clear you do not understand "Baptism" and how its the putting to death the flesh daily as he did.

Let me show you Paul's teaching on this:

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

Why are we baptized "into" his death?
What happened in his death which freed us from death?
What was achieved by God "through" that death which means we are no longer condemned?

Can you use Paul's teacing elsewhere to show an understanidng?

F2F

my name is Sergeant Shultz and "I know nuthing"

Good Night

 

[face2face]

my name is Sergeant Shultz and "I know nuthing"

Good Night

True that!
gnight

 

[Magdala]

No human can conquer temptation/sin - PERIOD

"God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). In other words, no temptation will be greater than one's ability to resist it, because God is faithful and will provide a way out. As I said, it's through our willpower and God's assistance that we can resist the temptation of evil, and God, as a human, is proof of this.

 

[David in NJ]

"God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). In other words, no temptation will be greater than one's ability to resist it, because God is faithful and will provide a way out. As I said, through our willpower and God's assistance we can resist the temptation of evil, and God, as a human, is proof of that.

Who is faithful to overcome sin = man or God???

DILEMMA = No human can conquer temptation/sin - PERIOD - "with man it is IMPOSSIBLE"

SALVATION = "God is faithful...." = "With God all things are POSSIBLE"