Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[David in NJ]

@Wrangler
@ProDeo
@APAK
@David in NJ
@RedFan

See how Johann uses the word identification?

It's not Paul's "every respect" or is it in the likeness of sin's flesh BUT its a word which allows Johann's Christ to be distant enough from it sufficient for him to identify. Not fully man as Paul taught!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.

The enmity (Gen 3) between the mind of the flesh and the mind of the Spirit was removed in Christ's sacrifice - in the offering of his body on the tree.

Here is the challenge for Johann - as far as you go with forcing the god-man try reading up on what God achieved "through" Christ flesh.

I think you would remove the word "identification" and replace it with Paul's inspired example/words!

For our sake he (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinth 5:21

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:9

In other words Christ died to the flesh (sin) once but now lives unto (for) God

F2F

"Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light" = Gospel

 

[Johann]

I'm talking about your discussion with @face2face. Approach him on the subject of the Holy Trinity from the angle of his acknowledgment in Scripture of a plurality within unity.

Is there any particular reason you want to shift that responsibility onto me? Why don’t you handle it yourself? Show him your signature.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't think anyone here is denying the Man Christ Jesus-right? God manifest in the flesh-right?

J.

Some Trinitarians, perhaps inadvertently, deny the humanity of Jesus.

Philippians chapter 2 is a case in point. Trinitarians misconstrue Paul to say that Jesus existed as God at some point before history.

The correct interpretation understands Paul's statement within the entire passage where it appears. Paul encourages his readers to follow the example set by Christ. Just as Jesus, despite his high position, did not cling to it and chose to take on the role of a servant, his readers should also let go of their own status and embrace the attitude of a servant.

Since Paul expects his readers to follow Jesus' example, we should not misconstrue what Paul said about humility as if Paul expects his readers to abandon their deified nature. Rather, to follow Christ's example is to abandon our high status (if we have one) to serve others.

Paul is not talking about the so-called pre-incarnate Christ in this passage. He is talking about the man Jesus, who deserved his high status, but humbled himself to serve others. Rather, Paul is saying that Jesus, while he walked the earth, existed in the "form" of God, which is to say, he appeared as God. Paul calls him the "image" of God, and John calls him "the translation" of God. As the image of God, he was exalted higher than any other authority. He deserved our worship and our devotion. But, although he deserved our service, he served us instead.

 

[Johann]

See how Johann uses the word identification?

It's not Paul's "every respect" or is it in the likeness of sin's flesh BUT its a word which allows Johann's Christ to be distant enough from it sufficient for him to identify. Not fully man as Paul taught!

I can understand why @marks stopped engaging in conversation with you; you consistently twist and misrepresent what is shared with you.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7)

I find it revealing that trinitarian interpretation is AS IF there is not a “NOT” in that sentence. These 2 sentences cannot be interpreted the same.

• I seek equality with God.
• I DO NOT seek equality with God.

 

[Johann]

The correct interpretation understands Paul's statement within the entire passage where it appears. Paul encourages his readers to follow the example set by Christ. Just as Jesus, despite his high position, did not cling to it and chose to take on the role of a servant, his readers should also let go of their own status and embrace the attitude of a servant.

Correct. We are to deny self, take up our cross and keep on following our Master.

Since Paul expects his readers to follow Jesus' example, we should not misconstrue what Paul said about humility as if Paul expects his readers to abandon their deified nature. Rather, to follow Christ's example is to abandon our high status (if we have one) to serve others.

Correct-I don't hold to theosis.

(A) HUMILITY
(1) Promises Concerning
Pro_16:19; Pro_22:4; Pro_29:23; Isa_57:15; Mat_18:4; Luk_18:14

--SEE Contrition, PENITENCE
Promises to the Humble, PROMISES, DIVINE
Repentance (2), PENITENCE

(2) Enjoined
Mic_6:8; Luk_14:10; Luk_22:26; Rom_11:20; Rom_12:3; Php_2:5
Jas_4:10; 1Pe_5:5
--SEE Contrition, PENITENCE
Repentance, PENITENCE

(A) HUMILITY
(3) General Examples of
Jacob
Gen_32:10
King Saul
1Sa_9:21
King David
2Sa_7:18
King Solomon
1Ki_3:7; Psa_131:1
John the Baptist
Mat_3:14
The Centurion
Mat_8:8
The Syrophenician Woman
Mat_15:27; Jhn_1:27
Paul
1Ti_1:15
--SEE Confession of Sin (3), CONFESSION
Prayer (15), PRAYER
Repentance (3), PENITENCE
Self-abasement, SELF-ABASEMENT

(4) Examples of Men Humbling themselves before Men
Gen_41:16; 1Sa_18:18; 1Sa_24:14; 2Sa_9:8; Dan_2:30; Luk_1:43
--SEE Salutations, SOCIAL LIFE

(B) CHRIST’S HUMILITY
(1) General References to
Zec_9:9; Mat_11:29; Jhn_13:5; 2Co_8:9; Php_2:8
--SEE Christ as Servant, WORK AND WORKERS, RELIGIOUS
Incarnation, CHRIST’S
Christ’s Meekness, MEEKNESS
Humiliation of Christ, SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST

(2) He was Free from all Worldly Pride
Of Appearance -- He hath no form nor comeliness
Isa_53:2
Of Worldly success -- He is despised and rejected of men
Isa_53:3
Of Reputation -- He shall be called a Nazarene
Mat_2:23
Of Riches -- He hath not where to lay his head
Mat_8:20
Of Rank -- Is not this the carpenter’s son?
Mat_13:55
Of Kingship -- He washed the disciples’ feet
Jhn_13:5

(C) SINNERS HUMBLING THEMSELVES IN PENITENCE, examples of
--Ahab
1Ki_21:29
--Rehoboam and the Princes
2Ch_12:6
--Manasseh
2Ch_33:12
--Josiah
2Ch_34:27
--The Prodigal Son
Luk_15:18
--The Publican
Luk_18:13

--SEE Contrition, PENITENCE
Repentance, PENITENCE
Prayer (15), PRAYER
(D) PERSONS FOUND AT CHRIST’S FEET
Unfortunate Sufferers
Mat_15:30
An Afflicted Father
Mrk_5:22; Mrk_5:23
A Sorrowing Mother
Mrk_7:25
A Sinful Woman
Luk_7:37; Luk_7:38
A Healed Demoniac
Luk_8:35
A Seeker after Truth
Luk_10:39
A Bereaved Sister
Jhn_11:32
A Reverent Worshipper
Rev_1:17

(E) PRIDE
(1) Warnings Against
Psa_10:2; Psa_73:6; Psa_119:21; Pro_6:17; Pro_11:2; Pro_13:10; Pro_16:18; Pro_21:4
Pro_28:25; Hos_7:10; Hab_2:4; 1Jn_2:16

--SEE Self-exaltation, SELF-EXALTATION
Haughtiness, PRIDE
Conceit, PRIDE
(2) Examples of
Pharaoh
Exo_5:2
Naaman
2Ki5:11
Uzziah
2Ch_26:16
Hezekiah
2Ch_32:25
Haman
Est_3:5; Isa_10:13; Isa_14:13; Isa_47:10; Ezk_28:2; Ezk_31:10
Nebuchadnezzar
Dan_4:30
Belshazzar
Dan_5:23; Oba_1:3

--SEE Arrogance, PRIDE
Self-confidence, INSECURITY
& INSECURITY
Ambition, SELF-EXALTATION
(F) SPIRITUAL, examples of
Job_33:9; Luk_18:11; Jhn_9:41; 1Co_4:18; Rev_3:17

--SEE Self-righteousness, SELF-JUSTIFICATION
& SELF-JUSTIFICATION
Sanctimony, RELIGION
(G) JEWISH PRIDE, as the chosen nation
Luk_3:8; Jhn_8:33; Jhn_8:39; Jhn_9:28; Rom_2:19

--SEE Self-exaltation, SELF-EXALTATION
(H) THE PROUD
(1) General References to
Psa_40:4; Psa_119:78; Psa_119:85; Psa_123:4; Psa_138:6; Mal_3:15; Mal_4:1
1Ti_6:4; Jas_4:6
(2) Will be humbled
--SEE 1172

(I) ARROGANCE, general references to
1Sa_2:3; Psa_12:4; Pro_8:13; Isa_13:11
(J) CONCEIT, warnings against
Pro_3:7; Pro_26:5; Pro_26:12; Isa_5:21; Rom_12:16; 1Co_8:2; Gal_6:3
(K) HAUGHTINESS, condemned
2Sa_22:28; Isa_3:16; Isa_16:6; Isa_24:4; Jer_48:29; Zep_3:11
(L) BOASTING, the folly of
Psa_10:3; Psa_49:6; Psa_49:7; Psa_52:1; Pro_20:14; Pro_25:14; Pro_27:1; Jas_3:5; Jas_4:16
(M) BOASTERS, examples of
1Sa_17:44; 1Ki_20:10; 2Ki_18:34; Dan_3:15; Act_8:9; Rom_1:30
2Pe_2:18
--SEE Self-confidence, INSECURITY
& INSECURITY

Paul is not talking about the so-called pre-incarnate Christ in this passage. He is talking about the man Jesus, who deserved his high status, but humbled himself to serve others. Rather, Paul is saying that Jesus, while he walked the earth, existed in the "form" of God, which is to say, he appeared as God. Paul calls him the "image" of God, and John calls him "the translation" of God. As the image of God, he was exalted higher than any other authority. He deserved our worship and our devotion. But, although he deserved our service, he served us instead.

Have you studied this thoroughly, examining the Greek construction, grammar, and syntax? Are you aware that the deity of the Messiah is under attack?

J.

 

[Wrangler]

if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him

Juxtaposition. The strongest argument against the trinity is the fact that “God” is in sentences as the subject, acting in “Jesus” who is the object of the sentence passively being acted upon. This formula is ubiquitous throughout Scripture. And one should read into Scripture, “in his Unitarian nature” whenever “God” is juxtaposed with Jesus for emphasis.

It is not the trinitarian preferred ‘Father’ but God - in his Unitarian nature - who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, etc. Profound.

In v9, God - in his Unitarian nature - highly exalted “him” not to mean exalted himself but “him” referring to Jesus.

 

[marks]

I can understand why @marks stopped engaging in conversation with you; you consistently twist and misrepresent what is shared with you.

J.

No honesty, no depth. Only schoolyard antics. There's so much of that on this forum these days!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

No honest, no depth. Only schoolyard antics. There's so much of that on this forum these days!

Much love!

You are correct, brother-this feels more like an intellectual contest, if it can even be called that, with pride ever lurking, even within me, and little to no edification.

Keep the faith Marks-I am tired.

Johann.

 

[APAK]

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh (the Lord)

1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated “for” (gar), which links these verses closely together. The “Lord” of 10:13 (where kurios, “Lord,” translates the HebrewYahweh) must be the “Lord” of 10:9, 12.

Shall we go through each one to demonstrate one of the many ways you poison the well?

Romans 10:9-13

The poison: as you said 'where kurios, “Lord,” translates the HebrewYahweh.'

And you deliberately imply that Jesus the Christ = YHWH; without having the courage to say it explicitly.

Unfortunately because of the Greek language and careless translations, the translated 'Lord' is used at times for either Jesus or YHWH. In fact many translators should have used 'lord' for Jesus as he is the master or owner of believers, with no other meaning in mind. His lordship is not a name or title as God or YHWH! Yet you have elevated this 'lord' as for Christ, as used throughout history for other men as well, to mean LORD or even YHWH. You have confused the special name of the LORD God YHWH from the OT into the same Lord for Jesus with this intent of sliding it in as a fraudulent title and name for Jesus that is not his to possess.

Romans 10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This verse refers to Jesus Christ as Lord (lord) under the authority of God our Father.
Context: “the Lord Jesus” in verse 9. Most major Greek texts read “the Lord Jesus.” Some texts read “the Lord Jesus Christ.” A few texts read “that Jesus is Lord,” a few texts read “that Jesus Christ is Lord,” and one text reads “the word in your mouth that Jesus is Lord.”
This title of Lord for Christ IS NOT YHWH!

Romans 10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. This verse refers to Jesus Christ as Lord under the authority of God our Father.
Context: “the Lord Jesus” in verse 9 and the quotation from Joel 2:32 in verse 13. Same as Acts 2:21.
This title of Lord for Christ IS NOT YHWH!

Romans 10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This verse refers to Jesus Christ as Lord under the authority of God our Father. This refers to the prophecy in Joel 2:32. Same as Acts 2:21. Context: “the Lord Jesus” in verse 9.

--------------------ready for the next line of poison you have added J.?------------------

 

[Johann]

The reasons @face2face gave for not responding were baseless assertions about me,

If you had followed our conversation, you would have noticed the same baseless assertions directed at me. I am not willing to share God’s Word in a discussion that devolves into endless circular reasoning-it is not edifying.

Shalom.

J.

 

[APAK]

@Johann next poisoned scripture of yours..

(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again you have caused much confusion by equating in verse 11 the the 'Lord' for Christ inferring it as the same for YHWH (or Jehovah as you now decided to call him) who is God and as verse 9 says EXHALTED Christ to be the lord/Lord of all believers.....

YHWH made his Son the lord! They are not the same at all.
And of course in verse 11 we see that Christ is lord exalted and given his own glory to the glory of the one God, the Father.

As a side note and for another sidebar discussion, do you believe that the words "...every knee should bow." and "every tongue should confess.." is a literal or figurative reality of action?

-------------next one, or do you confess you have been deliberately shady with the truth in scripture--------------

 

[Johann]

Since you believe that God is one essence (one being) in three persons, then how do you say that the Word became flesh? If God is one being in three persons, then what happens to one of the persons happens to them all. Otherwise, they aren't one being.

Not entirely true-


Trinitarian theology maintains a crucial distinction: while the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same divine essence (ousia), they are distinct in personhood (hypostases). The Incarnation pertains to the person of the Son, not the essence shared by all three persons. This means that the Word (the Son) could take on human nature without this action being attributed to the Father or the Holy Spirit. This distinction avoids the confusion of conflating essence with personhood.

Scriptural Affirmation of Distinctions:
Scripture clearly demonstrates the distinct roles and actions of the three persons. For example, at Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:16-17), the Father speaks from heaven, the Spirit descends like a dove, and the Son is baptized-three distinct persons acting in harmony. Similarly, John 1:14 specifies that "the Word became flesh," referring explicitly to the Son. The Father and the Holy Spirit remain unincarnate.

The Kenosis and the Son’s Humility:
Philippians 2:6-8 explains that the Son, "being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant." This passage highlights that the Incarnation was a voluntary act of the Son, who added a human nature to His divine nature. The essence of God remains unchanged, as the Son's action does not alter or involve the Father or Spirit in becoming flesh.

Divine Actions and Persons:
What happens to one person of the Trinity in their specific role does not necessarily affect the others in the same way. For instance, the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:17), but He Himself did not become incarnate. Similarly, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (John 15:26) but does not assume a human nature. These actions are carried out by distinct persons without dividing the one divine essence.

Orthodox Theological Terminology:
The hypostatic union explains that the Son took on human nature, uniting it with His divine nature in one person. This does not mean the divine essence itself was altered or that all persons of the Trinity participated in the Incarnation. The Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) affirmed that Christ is fully God and fully man, with two natures united in one person.

In conclusion, the Incarnation uniquely applies to the person of the Son without compromising the unity of the Godhead. The distinctions among the persons of the Trinity allow the Son to act in a manner consistent with His role, while the shared essence ensures the unity and indivisibility of God. This preserves both the coherence of Trinitarian theology and the biblical witness of Christ’s divinity and humanity.

If you are interested, visit Sam Shamouns blog, or Apologetics.com Bowman The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity, Part IV: The Son, Jesus Christ, Is God

--or ancient rabbinical sources. The ECF's also good.

I say again, the Deity of the Lord Christ Jesus is under attack like never before.

Johann.

 

[Johann]

Essence
The being of God, or what God is. The word "essence" comes from the Latin "esse", meaning "to be", so "one essence" means "one being".

Person
The mode of existence of God, or who God is. The term "person" comes from the Latin "persona", which has multiple meanings, including mask, role of an actor, and self-existence.

"[...] God is love" (1 Jn. 4:8)
The term "Godhead" refers to the Essence (love) of God existing in Three Persons, or forms: the Father (First Person), the Word (Second Person), and the Holy Spirit (Third Person). To help you better understand, water, for example, exists in three forms: solid, liquid, and gas, each quite distinct, and not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and one is not the other, but is still considered one substance. The Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, each working differently and yet not working in a contrary fashion, united as one because They are the same Essence: love, and equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, Who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit.

"God is spirit [...]" (Jn. 4:24)
Matthew wrote, "an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, [...] Behold, the virgin shall conceive and give birth to a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel ( Ἐμμανουήλ)", which translated means “God is with us" (Matt. 1:23). John wrote, "The Word (Second Person) became flesh (man) and lived among us [...]" (Jn. 1:14). God, Who, as Man, was and is a visible King and, as God, is an invisible King because He is a most pure Spirit, to whom faith is tributed out of pure faith because human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became incarnate and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them.

Jesus (the Word, the Son), when he was baptized, went up directly from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened to him. He saw the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) descending as a dove, and coming on Him. Behold, a Voice out of the heavens (the Father) said, “This is My beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:16-17)

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19)

Is that understandable?

Thanks for watching my back-keep up the good work @LuxMundi.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

Not Himself--His Son.

J.

Language Usage. The word “God” only refers to himself as all nouns do … Jack and Jill went up the hill. Jack packed himself a lunch. This is not to be construed that he packed a lunch for a different person.

 

[Wrangler]

Romans 10:9-13

The poison: as you said 'where kurios, “Lord,” translates the HebrewYahweh.'

And you deliberately imply that Jesus the Christ = YHWH;

The fact that trinitarians deliberately stoop to such obvious deceptions is amazing. There are dozens of lords in Scripture, which Jesus is one.

There is only one capital LORD and refers exclusively to Jesus’ God. Simple.

 

[Wrangler]

f that were the case any human could have been sacrificed to save mankind....there would have been no need for a heavenly man.

It had to be any human per Deut 18:15-18. What makes Jesus special is that God Anointed him for the task of being the sacrifice.

 

[Wrangler]

The Law required a perfect, spotless, pure, entirely unblemished Lamb, aka heavenly/divine, because the blood of animals or any fallen mortal flesh could not take away sins.

What verse says this?

 

[Johann]

The fact that trinitarians deliberately stoop to such obvious deceptions is amazing. There are dozens of lords in Scripture, which Jesus is one.

There is only one capital LORD and refers exclusively to Jesus’ God. Simple.

The New Testament authors frequently applied κύριος to Jesus in contexts that directly connect Him to Old Testament passages where κύριος referred to YHWH. This implies that they identified Jesus with the Lord of the Hebrew Scriptures. For example:

Psalm 110:1 (LXX: Psalm 109:1)

LXX: "Εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου, Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου..."
("The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand...'")
In the New Testament (e.g., Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:34-35), this is interpreted as referring to Jesus, applying κύριος to Him.

Isaiah 45:23

LXX: "ὅτι ἐμοὶ κλίσεται πᾶν γόνυ, καὶ ἐξομολογήσεται πᾶσα γλῶσσα τῷ θεῷ."
("To Me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to God.")
Paul applies this to Jesus in Philippians 2:10-11: "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (κύριος)."

Joel 2:32 (LXX: Joel 3:5)

LXX: "πᾶς, ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου, σωθήσεται."
("Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.")
Peter (Acts 2:21) and Paul (Romans 10:13) explicitly apply this to Jesus, identifying Him as κύριος.

Thus, while the LXX does not directly name Jesus, the use of κύριος in the New Testament to describe Jesus reflects an intentional theological connection to the LXX's use of κύριος for YHWH.

This shows the New Testament authors' understanding of Jesus as divine.

J.

 

[Johann]

What verse says this?

The Requirement for an Unblemished Lamb in the Law:

Exodus 12:5: "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats."

Leviticus 22:20-21: "Whatever has a defect, you shall not offer, for it shall not be acceptable for you. And whoever offers a sacrifice of peace offering to the Lord... it must be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no defect in it."

Animal Sacrifices Could Not Take Away Sin:

Hebrews 10:4: "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

Hebrews 10:11: "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins."

Christ as the Perfect, Divine Lamb:

John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

1 Peter 1:18-19: "Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things... but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

Hebrews 9:13-14: "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer... sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

The Need for a Heavenly, Divine Sacrifice:

Hebrews 7:26-27: "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."

Hebrews 10:12-14: "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God... For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

These passages collectively establish that the Old Testament sacrificial system symbolized the need for a perfect, sinless offering, ultimately fulfilled in Christ. The inability of animal sacrifices to permanently address sin shows the necessity of Christ's divine and perfect sacrifice.

@Lizbeth is correct.

J.