Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

Which verse above states Jesus had divine nature J?

F2F

I see two or three verses that unequivocally show the Messiah had a divine nature, along with more verses in context, but you lack the insight to recognize them.

J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Your Jesus cannot be a High Priest Johann,

Not sure if you know this but you would still be in your sins if Christ wasn't born into Sin's Flesh.

You have no atonement with your god-man!

F2F

Messiah is my High Priest, Prophet and King and Jesus was NOT born IN sin's flesh.

Jesus as High Priest:
Hebrews 4:14-16: "Seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

Jesus serves as the perfect High Priest, having offered Himself as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 9:24-28). Unlike the Levitical priests, He is sinless and can sympathize with our weaknesses. He intercedes on our behalf before the Father.

Hebrews 7:24-25: "But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Jesus' priesthood is eternal, and He continues to intercede for believers.

2. Jesus as Prophet:
Luke 24:19: "And He said to them, 'What things?' So they said to Him, 'The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.'"

Jesus is recognized as a prophet by His followers, who acknowledge His mighty deeds and words.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (fulfilled in Jesus): "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear."

Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecy of a prophet like Moses, bringing God's revelation and guidance.

Matthew 13:57: "And they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.'"

Jesus affirms His role as a prophet, though His own people often rejected Him.

3. Jesus as King:
Matthew 28:18: "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'"

Jesus claims all authority in heaven and on earth, a clear indication of His kingship.

John 18:36-37: "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.' Pilate therefore said to Him, 'Are You a king then?' Jesus answered, 'You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.'"

Jesus acknowledges His kingship but clarifies that His kingdom is spiritual, not of this world.

Revelation 19:16: "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Jesus is identified as the supreme King over all earthly rulers.

Read your Bible.

J.

 

[face2face]

And I would say much more humble that J. and myself. He was and is a true servant of both man and his God, his Father.

It's a shame that these Bini and Trini -tarians ...miss out on knowing the true Jesus written in scripture and as the Spirit would want them to read and understand him. They are instead constantly wrestling with scripture and even the Spirit to find loop-holes and weaknesses in order to install their pagan hooks of their three not so co-operative and not-so-equal gods as called only one god, not found in scripture.

Now I believe I read that J. as he does change his definitions a lot, now views logos akin to 'world reason' and to the Hebrews use of it as wisdom that employs both a personage to it. What next I wonder is he going to come up with.....

Hmm, the green text is the most painful part of these discussions.

As @ProDeo pointed out, he doesn't seem to have a Christ he can truly relate to, or one who relates to him.

What this also means is that the "good fight" isn't fought with the understanding that Christ overcame every sin these individuals have committed—and even more than this, he received God's power without measure! Imagine that temptation? then the struggle is missing a crucial element.

Johann and Prodeo are unable to grasp the depth of this verse... consider how serious that is:

"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood." (Hebrews 12:4)

By elevating Christ solely to the status of God, they completely undermine the raw intensity of the writer's words, rendering them ineffective.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Messiah is my High Priest, Prophet and King and Jesus was NOT born IN sin's flesh.

Jesus as High Priest:
Hebrews 4:14-16: "Seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."J.

Hebrews 5:1-2 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

You failed to comprehend the word every in "every respect" DO you also fail to understand that EVERY High priest is taken from among men.

Talk to me about the Lords infirmity?

What is our shared weakness?

F2F

 

[face2face]

I see two or three verses that unequivocally show the Messiah had a divine nature, along with more verses in context, but you lack the insight to recognize them.

J.

Show me what verse states Jesus had divine nature!

Don't shrink back Johann!

What verse clearly speaks to Christ having Divine Nature before His Resurrection!

F2F

 

[Johann]

And I would say much more humble that J. and myself. He was and is a true servant of both man and his God, his Father.

It's a shame that these Bini and Trini -tarians ...miss out on knowing the true Jesus written in scripture and as the Spirit would want them to read and understand him. They are instead constantly wrestling with scripture and even the Spirit to find loop-holes and weaknesses in order to install their pagan hooks of their three not so co-operative and not-so-equal gods as called only one god, not found in scripture.

Now I believe I read that J. as he does change his definitions a lot, now views logos akin to 'world reason' and to the Hebrews use of it as wisdom that employs both a personage to it. What next I wonder is he going to come up with.....

The Logos is the Son of God, the Messiah-a Person and not a concept in the mind of God.

J.

 

[face2face]

The Logos is the Son of God, the Messiah-a Person and not a concept in the mind of God.

J.

Everything that exists begins as a concept in the Mind of God which includes the Word which became Flesh!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann #786 will be a hard one to prove, yes?

You know for every single verse you try to force Divinity I can provide you 10 verses that teach Christ had your exact nature.

The ground from underneath must feel like its giving way.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Hebrews 5:1-2 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

You failed to comprehend the word every in "every respect" DO you also fail to understand that EVERY High priest is taken from among men.

Talk to me about the Lords infirmity?

What is our shared weakness?

F2F

You doge and deflect and everytime I show your error-more questions but you don't answer mine-I suggest concede, repent and believe the gospel of Messiah.

J.

 

[face2face]

You doge and deflect and everytime I show your error-more questions but you don't answer mine-I suggest concede, repent and believe the gospel of Messiah.

J.

You repeatedly misquote Scripture, and when it’s shown to you clearly that Christ was taken from among men, you deny that truth. Why? To uphold the ideas of men from 1700 years ago?

Your buckshot approach is obvious to all, Johann!

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Hebrews 5:1-2 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

You missed verse 3: "And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins." Every high priest is to offer sacrifices for his own sins! Aren't you committing yourself to Jesus being a sinner here?

 

[face2face]

@Johann #786 will be a hard one to prove, yes?

You know for every single verse you try to force Divinity I can provide you 10 verses that teach Christ had your exact nature.

The ground from underneath must feel like its giving way.

F2F

@Johann

I'm still waiting for you to present a verse that teaches Christ had a Divine nature while being tempted in the flesh.

You will either ignore this or eventually admit you cannot provide one!

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann #786 will be a hard one to prove, yes?

I don't have to prove nothing to you.

In the Old Testament, the Levitical priests had to be sympathetic toward the people because they were themselves human, frail, and subject to the same weaknesses. The Hebrew word for "infirmity" in the context of priests and sacrifice is חָלָשׁ (chalah) and עֶצֶב (etseb), which convey the ideas of illness or weakness.

חָלָשׁ (chalah): This Hebrew term refers to physical illness, weakness, or vulnerability. It can also refer to a state of being morally or spiritually "weakened" or "sick." The priests, in their role, had to be aware of the frailty of human beings due to the effects of sin on the body and soul.

This idea of human frailty is crucial to understanding Jesus' identification with humanity.

עֶצֶב (etseb): Meaning "sorrow" or "suffering," this word is associated with emotional and physical distress. It highlights the idea of anguish and the burdens of life, which is integral to Jesus' identification with human suffering in His role as High Priest.

Understanding Jesus' Role through Greek and Hebrew Terms:
Sympathy and Compassion:

Hebrews 5:2 implies that the high priest must be compassionate because he is "compassed with infirmity" (ἀσθένεια). Jesus, as the High Priest, fulfills this role perfectly because He took on human nature, experiencing the full range of human weakness, including suffering, temptation, and death. This enables Him to empathize with human struggles.

The verb συμπαθέω (sympatheō) in Hebrews 2:17-18 means that Jesus has deep empathy for humanity. He "suffers with" His people, not only because He experienced suffering but also because His divine nature enables Him to perfectly understand and minister to those who are afflicted.

Temptation and Testing:

Hebrews 4:15 emphasizes that Jesus was πειρασμός (peirasmos) tested and tempted, yet without sin.

The testing Jesus endured was not just a passive experience of human weakness; it was a real trial in which He could have fallen to temptation but chose to remain sinless.

This is critical to His priestly role because only someone who is sinless can offer the perfect sacrifice for sins.

In the Old Testament, the priests' role was to offer sacrifices for their own sins and the sins of the people (Leviticus 16:6).

Jesus, however, had no need for such sacrifices, as He Himself was without sin, yet He still underwent the human experience of temptation to fully identify with humanity.

Jesus' Human Limitations and Divine Sympathy:

The ἀσθένεια (astheneia) of Jesus shows His participation in the full range of human frailty. He was fully human, with physical needs and weaknesses, but His divine nature enabled Him to remain sinless. This divine sympathy makes Him the perfect mediator between God and man.

The Old Testament priests' weaknesses were reminders of their need for atonement; in contrast, Jesus’ sympathy is rooted in His sinlessness and His voluntary identification with human weakness for the sake of redemption.

In examining the original Greek and Hebrew terms used in Hebrews 5:2, Hebrews 4:15, and Hebrews 2:17-18, we see that the "infirmity" Jesus shared with humanity is not merely physical frailty but the entire spectrum of human suffering, weakness, and temptation. His participation in this condition is essential for His role as the perfect High Priest who can empathize with us and intercede on our behalf.

The words ἀσθένεια (astheneia) and συμπαθέω (sympatheō) highlight that Jesus’ empathy is rooted in His own experience of human limitations, though without sin. Thus, Jesus as the High Priest is uniquely qualified to make atonement for humanity because He shares in our suffering but is perfectly sinless and capable of bringing us into reconciliation with God.

We could delve deeper into the grammar, but that's not really your strength.

J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

I'm still waiting for you to present a verse that teaches Christ had a Divine nature while being tempted in the flesh.

You will either ignore this or eventually admit you cannot provide one!

F2F

Already did-you don't have eyes to see.

J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann, the following post by @face2face shows that he's already on the right track:

I appreciate the response @LuxMundi but he is very far from the truth.

J.

 

[face2face]

You missed verse 3: "And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins." Every high priest is to offer sacrifices for his own sins! Aren't you committing yourself to Jesus being a sinner here?

Nice Red! and well done for providing a verse in context.

In what way did Christ offer for himself?

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hebrews 5:7

CMP

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

While Christ was sinless he lived a life under the dominion of death which is sins power! Christ offered a perfect sinless life as seen in his blood by which he attained eternal redemption and now has the keys of death and the grave (power to unlock).

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

So you are right Red that Jesus who was taken from among men while having no personal sin to atone for still required to offer for himself because he suffer in his body the affects of sin.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Christ being born into the fallen line of Adam and being the second Adam he suffered all the affects of sin in his aging body, but not once committed sin himself.

The Divine Decree was Deaths Sting however death was removed in Christ who offered a single sacrifice for sin in himself.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:13-14

So here is the issue Red,

If you don't believe Christ benefited from his own death by the offering himself for the removal of sins power. Then you must also believe the curtain of his flesh was not rent and deaths dominion not removed!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, Hebrews 10:20

At every point in this reply, Christ cannot be God! God cannot be His own sacrifice; God cannot be held under the power of death; God cannot be taken from among men to offer sacrifices; and most certainly, God cannot die to sin once, as we are commanded!

No doubt this will prompt more questions but thanks for asking that one!

Hope that helps

 

[face2face]

This idea of human frailty is crucial to understanding Jesus' identification with humanity.

@Wrangler
@ProDeo
@APAK
@David in NJ
@RedFan

See how Johann uses the word identification?

It's not Paul's "every respect" or is it in the likeness of sin's flesh BUT its a word which allows Johann's Christ to be distant enough from it sufficient for him to identify. Not fully man as Paul taught!

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.

The enmity (Gen 3) between the mind of the flesh and the mind of the Spirit was removed in Christ's sacrifice - in the offering of his body on the tree.

Here is the challenge for Johann - as far as you go with forcing the god-man try reading up on what God achieved "through" Christ flesh.

I think you would remove the word "identification" and replace it with Paul's inspired example/words!

For our sake he (God) made him (Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinth 5:21

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:9

In other words Christ died to the flesh (sin) once but now lives unto (for) God

F2F

 

[Pierac]

Amazing!


Greek Text:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν.
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν.

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἦν (was) – Imperfect indicative active of εἰμί, showing the eternal preexistence of the Logos ("was" continuous action in the past).
ἐγένετο (were made) – Aorist indicative middle of γίνομαι, meaning "came into being" or "were created." The aorist tense marks this as a completed action.
δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) – The preposition διά with the genitive indicates agency, affirming that Jesus (the Logos) was the active agent in creation.

Colossians 1:16-17
Greek Text:
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·
καὶ αὐτὸς ἐστὶν πρὸ πάντων, καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἐκτίσθη (were created) – Aorist indicative passive of κτίζω, indicating that all things were created "in" or "by" Him (ἐν αὐτῷ).

The passive voice shows the creative action originating from the Father but executed through the Son.

δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) – The preposition διά with the genitive again highlights Christ as the means or agent of creation.

ἔκτισται (have been created) – Perfect indicative passive of κτίζω, signifying a completed action with continuing results; all creation remains dependent on Him.

συνέστηκεν (consist) – Perfect indicative active of συνίστημι, meaning "hold together" or "stand together," showing Christ’s sustaining power over all creation.

Hebrews 1:2
Greek Text:
ἐπ’ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν Υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας·

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἐποίησεν (He made) – Aorist indicative active of ποιέω, directly attributing the act of making (creating) the worlds (τοὺς αἰῶνας) to God through the Son.

δι’ οὗ (through whom) – As in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, the preposition διά with the genitive reinforces the Son’s active role as the agent of creation....



Lord (Kurie). In the lxx, not in the Hebrew. Quotation (the sixth) from Psa_102:26-28 through Heb_1:10-12. Note emphatic position of su here at the beginning as in Heb_1:11-12 (su de). This Messianic Psalm pictures the Son in his Creative work and in his final triumph.
Hast laid the foundation (ethemeliōsas). First aorist active of themelioō, old verb from themelios (foundation) for which see Col_1:23.

Oh my God!!! Did you really post this ?

The answer is in the word “by ” better known in the Greek as “Dia”
G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek
1537
ἐκ, ἐξ ek ex ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

AGAIN... like I said... Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.


Now read Hebrews chapter 1 but this time don't leave out verse 1!!!
Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

How did God Speak before He Created/Begotten a Son....

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Now in these last days.... GOD the God of Jesus.... Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son

Your Welcome

 

[Pierac]

Scriptures Affirming Christ as the Creator: AND as God!

Philippians 2:6
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
Christ's equality with God is affirmed here. The Messiah is called "The mighty God."

J.

Slow down Girl.... We only get 10,000 words to respond.... one verse at a time.... Grab your theological ankles... It's going to hurt!

Emptied Himself

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them.... including yours!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

Told you it was going to hurt!

 

[Pierac]

Angel worship much? View attachment 55321

You mock God! Not me.... I quoted scripture actually teaching what you mock.... You may very well hear these words...

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'