ECF writings shed light on how the earliest Christians understood their faith. Why wouldn't we want to explore that? Particularly when we consider how close some of their writings came to being included in the canon.
Why trust the "Early Fathers?"
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I don’t know. Let me ask you this question.
If it gets people away from actually reading the Bible and only reading their work though wouldn’t that be a problematic? In my opinion people don’t really read the Bible that much. It seems to be a real rarity.
When I think about it, wasn’t the earliest followers of Jesus the ones in the Bible, who seen him when he resurrected?
There has to be something to that, wouldn’t there be?
Anyway yall have a good night.
There has to be something to that, wouldn’t there be?
Anyway yall have a good night.
The ECF writings are no substitute for reading the Bible. But let's be candid, the Bible doesn't have an answer to every theological question. Searching for those answers can be informed by ECF writings.
Take baptism of infants, for example. The Bible neither commands nor forbids it. Wouldn't it be useful to know how the early Christians resolved this? Chapter 21 of The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus gives a clue:
¹At cockcrow prayer shall be made over the water. ²The stream shall flow through the baptismal tank or pour into it from above when there is no scarcity of water; but if there is a scarcity, whether constant or sudden, then use whatever water you can find.
³They shall remove their clothing. ⁴And first baptize the little ones; if they can speak for themselves, they shall do so; if not, their parents or other relatives shall speak for them.
Cool @RedFan, I must just differ.
It must be due to years of having read the Bible and plus being taught it verse by verse and just readily reminded of what has been known to me.
While little infants can’t do much. And if one died at the early stages of life I assume the infant would go on to be with the Lord. The baptism of the Lord Jesus is what people who are grown should seek for today.
Many people just seek for Jesus to come back, or seek for material wealth, or seek out whatever they may want to. In the end what truly matters is the question. I don’t see it wrong to see out information but in the end the most insights and wisdom is ever gonna find is from the contents of the Bible itself.
While it’s cool if people want to go under the water, it doesn’t mean a heart change.
I believe that a heart change comes from truly believing in Jesus, from within the heart (including his resurrection) and therefore Yeshua baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. While the Holy Spirit goes where it wants, as the wind blows.
We can still know if we have the spirit or not.
We see the God gives us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.
The Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness, and the Holy Spirit desires for us to do Gods will.
And what is the fruit of the spirit?
If this spirit produces this type of fruit, Jesus states, we can ask God to help us by the Holy Spirit.
It must be due to years of having read the Bible and plus being taught it verse by verse and just readily reminded of what has been known to me.
While little infants can’t do much. And if one died at the early stages of life I assume the infant would go on to be with the Lord. The baptism of the Lord Jesus is what people who are grown should seek for today.
Many people just seek for Jesus to come back, or seek for material wealth, or seek out whatever they may want to. In the end what truly matters is the question. I don’t see it wrong to see out information but in the end the most insights and wisdom is ever gonna find is from the contents of the Bible itself.
While it’s cool if people want to go under the water, it doesn’t mean a heart change.
I believe that a heart change comes from truly believing in Jesus, from within the heart (including his resurrection) and therefore Yeshua baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. While the Holy Spirit goes where it wants, as the wind blows.
We can still know if we have the spirit or not.
We see the God gives us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.
The Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness, and the Holy Spirit desires for us to do Gods will.
And what is the fruit of the spirit?
If this spirit produces this type of fruit, Jesus states, we can ask God to help us by the Holy Spirit.
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Where does it say that in Scripture?
What does Scripture say is the "pillar and foundation of truth?" (Hint: It's not the Bible.)
I was baptized three times as a growing teenager. It was all to save myself from hell. I didn’t really know Jesus… or God, and I grew afterward to hate them. In the end at the age of 26 I decided there was a huge hole in my own heart and I started seeking out to learn who Jesus was. I was a person who looked down on others at first, but now today I’m more reasonable to some degree because all credit where it is due God and Jesus, having helped me over the years, especially chastisement. I’m thankful to have gone through so many struggles and I continue to go through struggles every day. That’s just a short testimony; however even with my struggles I find joy in trusting God, and I’m thankful for the strength of the Holy Spirit to help all people out in this life and bring joy to them in looking and worshiping God in spirit and in truth, which the Father seeks for all to do, in faith which brings joy.
Marymog
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Hey Ronald,
Just some clarification here with biblical accuracy: The Bereans, who were Jews, were told by Paul and Silas that Jesus was the promised Messiah. That occurred about 30 years after the death of Christ. The Bereans then checked the OT scripture against what Paul and Silas had told them about Jesus meeting all the criteria for being The Messiah. Once they confirmed what Paul and Silas had told them, that Jesus met the criteria (checked all the boxes) of being the Messiah, they became Christians. The Bereans then faithfully followed and adhered to the teachings of The Church. They didn't double check everything The Church taught and then decide if The Church got it right.
THAT is what Protestant Christians are doing today when they shop around for a 'church' to attend. They determine if the teaching of the 'church' they are thinking about attending is "correct according to Scripture' and then if they like the teaching of that 'church', they join. If they don't like (agree with) the teaching of that 'church' according to their personal interpretation of Scripture, they call it heretical. That is NOT how the Bereans operated......FYI
Marymog
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Peter's and Paul's foretold warnings came true on a grand scale. It's called the Protestant Reformation. That is what I have "factored in". Does that answer your question, Scott?
Christ started The Church. That Church has taught the Truth of 2,000 years. I have found that Church. Have you?
Marymog
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Soooo you, MatthewG, read the bible and interpret various passages from the bible to teach XYZ.
Do you accept what you taught yourself as the truth?
Or do you reference anyone else's teachings from the last 2,000 years on those passages to further your knowledge and maybe get you to think that your XYZ interpretation of those passages might be wrong?
How do you do bible study Matthew?
Curious Mary
Behold
Well-Known Member
Include any theology as potentially "deceptive" that was created after the NT was completed.
Including Calvinism, Preterism, Gnosticism, Mormonism, JW... and so many more.
And regarding the "cult of Mary"........ this man made system that created the "dark ages"... is built on theology that was created, most of it, not by the NT, but by those who created the "cult of mary".
Even today they are still "making up new stuff" and its rarely found in the NT< and if you ask this CULT .. "why do you not use the NT and NT Verses, when you create your next man made theological fantasy".. they will tell you... "we use the scripture to build upon them.. as they are not complete in themselves, so our ever continuing next theology, is completing the Scriptures".
= Deception.
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If they can't be trusted the bible can't be trusted they put it together it didn't just drop from the sky also how can any of it be believed if they can't be trusted.You adopted the faith you did not create it or come up with it yourself.This faith is passed on generation to generation but in this new world of self importance it can all be tossed in the trash for each persons personal version of Christianity whether it aligns or not.Don't tell me what to do or believe we know better is this generation's attitude.Its going to be a threat to Christianity with people only believing the parts they want to and rejecting the rest.
Hello MaryMog,
I’m different than most people because I believe that the revelation has happened and we live in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
So while I believe some passages are applicable, some passages are most in fact are written to certain people in that day and age.
I study the Bible with a Thompson Chain reference Bible, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, and typically going verse by verse. That is how I study the Bible. People can use people’s point of view and references if they want to? But in the end it’s up the person to subject themselves to learn and grow in knowledge but not only this; the most important is growing in the spirit, which overrides our fleshly manner.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Authoritative reference. Apostolic writing is earlier and explains perfectly well how the earliest Christians understood their faith.
In law, wouldn’t you rely on actual eye witnesses to an event over generations of the information being shared verbally?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes this is all true.
But as believers today we must take writings of all "church leaders" past and present and compare it to Scripture to insure their teaching is accurate. The church is not infallible, only the Scripture is.
Yes it becomes a mess because people tend to privately intepret Scripture and there is so much false teaching out there.
However, God will lead and guide His people if their hearts are seeking Him. The church is the body of Christ (not a denomination but the saved) and it is still a mess as it was in teh first century. We are sinners saved by Grace.
There are many people flaunt the Bible as around as though it is authority, the truth is and still remains it is simply the Bible.
Many people believe that they can flaunt the scripture around as though it’s some type of authority. The thing is, is God whom is the ultimate authority, just like at a job you have a boss you have to listen and supervisors you should listen to. Or you call the police, and or we submit to our governing authorities. Many people do not see it this way, and that is okay.
Traditions and man-made doctrines that aren’t from the spirit, are not authority at all. It’s God whom writes his laws on the hearts and minds of people whom are his, leading the by the spirit to ultimately love God and love others.
I find it weird how also people believe we must subject ourselves to church as though it’s the authority it simply is not true. While I don’t mind whatever people want to do, there is no such thing as us having any right to Bible bash people to believe us. Which is where you have one person just saying “the Bible says this or the Bible says that, and you must obey it all.”
I just don’t find those notions to be true. Like I shared people can go and check out what people have shared, maybe glean something off of them. As long as it’s spirit lead is what I find to be the most important.
And I’m a person who is thankful for the gift of the Bible even though it was not written to us directly, it is however written for us and our benefit of learning and growing in the spiritual means.
Many people believe that they can flaunt the scripture around as though it’s some type of authority. The thing is, is God whom is the ultimate authority, just like at a job you have a boss you have to listen and supervisors you should listen to. Or you call the police, and or we submit to our governing authorities. Many people do not see it this way, and that is okay.
Traditions and man-made doctrines that aren’t from the spirit, are not authority at all. It’s God whom writes his laws on the hearts and minds of people whom are his, leading the by the spirit to ultimately love God and love others.
I find it weird how also people believe we must subject ourselves to church as though it’s the authority it simply is not true. While I don’t mind whatever people want to do, there is no such thing as us having any right to Bible bash people to believe us. Which is where you have one person just saying “the Bible says this or the Bible says that, and you must obey it all.”
I just don’t find those notions to be true. Like I shared people can go and check out what people have shared, maybe glean something off of them. As long as it’s spirit lead is what I find to be the most important.
And I’m a person who is thankful for the gift of the Bible even though it was not written to us directly, it is however written for us and our benefit of learning and growing in the spiritual means.
It's inferred by warnings to the contrary in both the OT and NT.
Deuteronemy 4:2, 12:32, Revelation 22:19, Galatians 1:6-9, Proverbs 30:5-6
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
If the Truth of God's Word... cannot be found in God's written Word... where do YOU obtain what you think the truth from?
This ought to be interesting....
Like I stated many flaunt the Bible around as though it’s some type of authority. I think that is a problem when people do that to others having no mercy or consideration.
I was reading earlier it was Jesus who taught with authority, so it’s best to listen to him, however even so, not everything within the living breathing generation of that time pertains to us. Though there is spiritual guidance founded in it for our spiritual growth.
“Jesus and his companions went to the town of Capernaum. When the Sabbath day came, he went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, for he taught with real authority—quite unlike the teachers of religious law.”
Mark 1:21-22 NLT
I was reading earlier it was Jesus who taught with authority, so it’s best to listen to him, however even so, not everything within the living breathing generation of that time pertains to us. Though there is spiritual guidance founded in it for our spiritual growth.
“Jesus and his companions went to the town of Capernaum. When the Sabbath day came, he went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, for he taught with real authority—quite unlike the teachers of religious law.”
Mark 1:21-22 NLT
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