On the pre-existence of Jesus

[David in NJ]

I'm afraid we have Jewish monotheists who would disagree @David in NJ

J.

i loved what you said: "it is an IMPERATIVE"

An 'imperative' from the Lord is unavoidable except thru unbelief and it is impossible to be saved thru unbelief !!!

"Who then can be saved?"
"With man this is impossible but with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit all things are possible."

 

[David in NJ]

I'm afraid we have Jewish monotheists who would disagree @David in NJ

J.

Why don't you start a new Thread on this:
Who then can be saved?"
"With man this is impossible but with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit all things are possible."

Ask the Question: Is this adding to God's words and therefore sin???

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Based on what you have learned or been taught, how would you respond to this question: Did the disciples recognize that Jesus had lived in heaven before being born as a human?

Later I'll post about what I've learned in my Bible study on that matter.

PS: Whichever you answer, please prove it with biblical passages if possible. Than

Well we see this:

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

It is interesting the verbs are in the present and not future. this proves the preexistence of Jesus!

John 1 proves the pre-existence of Jesus.

Before He incarnted in human flesh- He was known as The Word.

 

[MatthewG]

You wrote ‘and only 12 chosen apostles that were with him until the death of Judas, which I believe Paul had replaced him, though many suggest the other guy replaced him when Peter had drew lots.’

I’ve never considered this. Thank you. That is something to think about. I wouldn’t make a doctrine out of it but you make a great point. What stands out to me is it’s not by casting lots but God who chooses. I’ve always wondered why they did that thing of chance. To me it promotes signs by Chance. Like who chooses the shortest straw. or like the game we played at Christmas where you had to roll doubles with the dice. I’ve never considered Paul as the other guy; not by casting lots but by Jesus Christ meeting Saul on the road…saying “I will send you…”

Peter had drew lots.Matthew 16:15-17 He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.

Hello Vij,

May Yahavah be praised.

 

[keithr]

First of all there is no evidence in scripture of a pre-existing Jesus Christ, none.

How about the following?

Philippians 2:5-11 (WEB):

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,​

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;​

(10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,​

(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

John 16:28 (WEB):

(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​

John 6:62 (WEB):

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

 

[APAK]

How about the following?

Philippians 2:5-11 (WEB):

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,​

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;​

(10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,​

(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

John 16:28 (WEB):

(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​

John 6:62 (WEB):

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

If this is it in scripture then that is quite poor for convincing anyone. And if there are a few more suspects lying about then they also add to naught as all of them as well as Phil 2:5-11 fortunately are not about Jesus pre-existing at all.

This Phil portion of scripture has been highly exaggerated to force a pre-existence of Jesus. A form of desperation appeal to something Jesus was not.

Paul spoke about him being made by God and living a humble state of mind and life, for good reason. And he never took advantage of his Father's name and power, as his Father's presence was evident in his life as he existed in a type of form or outward view in action words and mannerisms, as his Father. He never tried to capitalize on this power of God given from heaven, ever for any worldly gain publicity, to gain some vane human reputation. He had the mind of God because God possessed his spirit in full and influence his mind and actions, and later to perform miracles etc., as an empowered created son of man.

As the incarnate believer would plead- cannot you see, He emptied himself, oh wow....look what he did, he was divine and now volunteered to stop being god and become just a man. What a piece of fantasy and trash. Of course is a mantra and must be said over and over again to comply and obey and worship the triune god model they idolize.


and then in John 16:28....these are idioms, (Jesus literally did not actually come down for heaven) yes God his Father is from heaven and HE came down with his pure and holy spirit to create Jesus into this world, and then Jesus will ascend to his Father's domain in heaven, (for the first time).


John 6:62 has been poorly translated and then gives a wrong interpretation.

The word 'ascend' should not be there even though the Greek word 'anabaino' does mean ascend. It needs to be qualified as to what type of rising up!! The context reveal it means a different kind of ascension, it's not Jesus' actual ascension to heaven for the first time. It's his earlier resurrection, by going up out of death to life and planting his feet back on the earth so to speak, as before, FROM WHERE HE WAS BEFORE!.

The context confirms that Jesus was speaking about being the bread from heaven and giving life via his resurrection. Read verses such as 39, 40 and 44 to confirm this as fact.

Jesus repeatedly said, “I will raise him(resurrect) [each believer] up at the last day.” Christ was amazed that even some of his disciples were offended at his teaching. He had been speaking of the resurrection, and they were offended, so he asked them if they would be offended if they saw him resurrected, which has been unfortunately translated as “ascend” in verse 62.'

----no pre-existing scripture...sorry-----------------

 

[Behold]

----no pre-existing scripture...sorry-----------------

1.) "Let us ........make man.........in OUR Image" (Likeness)

That is not Father God and The angels doing that.

2.) "and the Word ........was God".. = "Jesus is the WORD virgin born".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

----no pre-existing scripture...sorry-----------------

I don’t like topics like this because I was just reading proverbs while having my coffee and it speaks of causing contention in the body. This is one of those topics that surely causes contention, same as arguing of if there is a trinity or One God. I try not to assert Jesus is God for certain. Or say Jesus is the Son of God(which I assume no one argues). A few things that stand out to me though.

When you said with certainty there is no pre-existing scripture…did The Word pre-exist with God prior to the creation. I think so. Jesus said the volume of the book is about Him. Regardless of this argument over if Jesus is God manifest in the flesh or not….most would say (I assume) that Jesus Christ was within the Mind of God—-existing—-as a forethought(the Wisdom of God) even way back in Genesis when the first animal is slain to clothe man with, for they saw they were naked. Even in the first words of the Word of God “Let there be Light” God already had Jesus Christ with Him as the plan for redemption. Even in the Spirit of God moved upon the dark and created …speaks of that which already was in the Mind and Heart of God which is “This is My Son in whom I am well-pleased, hear Him.”

Was the Glory with God from the beginning? I think so. I don’t think God had no plan but always had the Glory with Him (a Lamb is Given) before God spoke anything into existence…
Romans 8:18-21 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

To me it’s a moot point of is Jesus God or is Jesus not God? Arguing The Word of God or the volume of the Word was not with God prior to creation to me is saying…God created without Jesus Christ in Mind, that God created without Jesus Christ in His Mind when God spoke “Let there be Light” …was the Son of God already with God in Spirit, being born out of the Mind of God as the Redemption of Mankind whereby being the Way, therefore Jesus Christ being the Glory of God. ‘An expressed image of God”? I think so. Should we throw away the Lambs pre-existence even way back in an animal slain to clothe them for the sake of trying to define whether Jesus is God or not? Does His preexisting in the forethought of God lie? When Adam and Eve sinned was that something God wasn’t prepared for …going through the pages of the Word of God where circumcision comes in, moving to “circumcision of the heart” and seriously Jesus Christ had no pre-existence of being the full expression of the Glory of God?< that is a question. I’m an author and in something I’m passionate about I can relate to God as THE Author of all things…before the Word there had to pre-exist the Volume of the Word whom was always the focus of the Word written on the hearts of many. (Imo) as God’s Glory foretold of which even the prophets spoke of.

 

[APAK]

I don’t like topics like this because I was just reading proverbs while having my coffee and it speaks of causing contention in the body. This is one of those topics that surely causes contention, same as arguing of if there is a trinity or One God. I try not to assert Jesus is God for certain. Or say Jesus is the Son of God(which I assume no one argues). A few things that stand out to me though.

When you said with certainty there is no pre-existing scripture…did The Word pre-exist with God prior to the creation. I think so. Jesus said the volume of the book is about Him. Regardless of this argument over if Jesus is God manifest in the flesh or not….most would say (I assume) that Jesus Christ was within the Mind of God—-existing—-as a forethought(the Wisdom of God) even way back in Genesis when the first animal is slain to clothe man with, for they saw they were naked. Even in the first words of the Word of God “Let there be Light” God already had Jesus Christ with Him as the plan for redemption. Even in the Spirit of God moved upon the dark and created …speaks of that which already was in the Mind and Heart of God which is “This is My Son in whom I am well-pleased, hear Him.”

Was the Glory with God from the beginning? I think so. I don’t think God had no plan but always had the Glory with Him (a Lamb is Given) before God spoke anything into existence…
Romans 8:18-21 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

To me it’s a moot point of is Jesus God or is Jesus not God? Arguing The Word of God or the volume of the Word was not with God prior to creation to me is saying…God created without Jesus Christ in Mind, that God created without Jesus Christ in His Mind when God spoke “Let there be Light” …was the Son of God already with God in Spirit, being born out of the Mind of God as the Redemption of Mankind whereby being the Way, therefore Jesus Christ being the Glory of God. ‘An expressed image of God”? I think so. Should we throw away the Lambs pre-existence even way back in an animal slain to clothe them for the sake of trying to define whether Jesus is God or not? Does His preexisting in the forethought of God lie? When Adam and Eve sinned was that something God wasn’t prepared for …going through the pages of the Word of God where circumcision comes in, moving to “circumcision of the heart” and seriously Jesus Christ had no pre-existence of being the full expression of the Glory of God?< that is a question. I’m an author and in something I’m passionate about I can relate to God as THE Author of all things…before the Word there had to pre-exist the Volume of the Word whom was always the focus of the Word written on the hearts of many. (Imo) as God’s Glory foretold of which even the prophets spoke of.

Enjoy your day VIJ, as God has you in mind as he did his Son.....

 

[keithr]

If this is it in scripture then that is quite poor for convincing anyone. And if there are a few more suspects lying about then they also add to naught as all of them as well as Phil 2:5-11 fortunately are not about Jesus pre-existing at all.

I didn't claim I had done an exhaustive search for all verses that implied Jesus' pre-existence. I just quoted a few verses.

A more obvious verse is Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

Lots of earthly and heavenly things existed (like the planet earth!) many thousands of years before Jesus was sent by God to live (and die) as a man on the earth. If all those things were created by Jesus, then it is obvoius that Jesus must have existed before he was born in Bethlehem as a human baby, and he could not have existed as a man because a man could not create the universe, heaven and all living beings, both spirit beings and animal.

As the incarnate believer would plead- cannot you see, He emptied himself, oh wow....look what he did, he was divine and now volunteered to stop being god and become just a man. What a piece of fantasy and trash. Of course is a mantra and must be said over and over again to comply and obey and worship the triune god model they idolize.

It's fundamental to how God is saving mankind. In order to redeem Adam (buy back his right to life), and all Adam's posterity, somebody had to pay the penalty for Adam. The penalty was death. God is immortal so He could not volunteer to be the redeemer; all men were decendants of Adam from after the penalty had been applied (Adam's nature became corrupted and slowly started to decay into eventual death) and therefore had inherited his imperfect, corrupted human nature, so no man could provide an equal price - the death of a perfect man. So God chose that a spirit being (pre-existing) should undergo a change of nature to become human, which meant that the baby boy had to have been born from a virgin so that he did not inherit the corrupted human nature from Adam. God chose His Son Jesus for this role, not one of the angels, so that Jesus would have preeminence in everything over all God's creation (Colossians 1:18).

God didn't just create another perfect man, as you seem to believe. The first perfect man had no knowledge or experience, and he only lasted a very short time before he sinned. Another perfect man would likely also fail to live a perfect life. But Jesus, God's only begotten Son, had all knowledge of how to live a perfect life, and why. And he did live a perfect live, without any sins - Hebrews 4:15 (WEB):

(15) For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.​

Therefore God was justified in restoring Jesus to life again, because he had not sinned. And Jesus having paid the penalty for sin for Adam and his descendants means that God is also justified in resurrecting all humans to life again. Jesus prayed to God that He would restore him to how he was before God changed his nature from spirit being to human being - John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

but God rewarded Jesus with a greater glory, and gave him an immortal nature (previously he was mortal, which is why he was able to die in order to redeem mankind), and gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on the earth (although still subject to God, of course). This is why the "triune god model" cannot be correct. Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and therefore an heir of God, and Christians are also heirs of God:

Romans 8:16 (WEB):

(16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;​

(17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.​

Jesus is a son/child of God, and so are Christians. None of them are God, or part of God. The good news continues - Romans 8:18-32 (WEB):

(18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us.​

(19) For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.​

(20) For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope​

(21) that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.​

(22) For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.​

(23) Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.​

(24) For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees?​

(25) But if we hope for that which we don’t see, we wait for it with patience.​

(26) In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can’t be uttered.​

(27) He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit’s mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God.​

(28) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.​

(29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

(30) Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.​

(31) What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?​

(32) He who didn’t spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how would he not also with him freely give us all things?​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Enjoy your day VIJ, as God has you in mind as he did his Son.....

You enjoy your day as well. I’m not sure if I see it the same way. While God has me in mind as he did the Son…the volume of the book is not written of me. If God has me in mind, it’s that the Spirit of the Son crying Abba Father has been sent into my heart. But the focus is still on Christ. As Paul spoke unto the Corinthians of “as Christ is being formed in you”

I see this one man on YouTube who has dogs. his videos are centered around how well his dogs listen to him. His videos are of his setting a forbidden plate of steak in front of his dogs, telling them, “don’t touch”. Then he walks out and is gone for a while to see if his dogs obey him by not taking the steak. They shift nervously. Looking everywhere but at the steak. There’s questions of how or why or by whom was the tree man was not to allowed to eat of was placed in the garden. I don’t know those answers, but I don’t think God is evil but always had a plan unto Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness. I do think Jesus Christ (not me) existed from the beginning. Before that tree. Just my input. Even in God’s desire that as we have born the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. All through the Old Testament and New there is the pre- existent of one spoken of that shall come. (Imo)

 

[APAK]

You enjoy your day as well. I’m not sure if I see it the same way. While God has me in mind as he did the Son…the volume of the book is not written of me. If God has me in mind, it’s that the Spirit of the Son crying Abba Father has been sent into my heart. But the focus is still on Christ. As Paul spoke unto the Corinthians of “as Christ is being formed in you”

I see this one man on YouTube who has dogs. his videos are centered around how well his dogs listen to him. His videos are of his setting a forbidden plate of steak in front of his dogs, telling them, “don’t touch”. Then he walks out and is gone for a while to see if his dogs obey him by not taking the steak. They shift nervously. Looking everywhere but at the steak. There’s questions of how or why or by whom was the tree man was not to allowed to eat of was placed in the garden. I don’t know those answers, but I don’t think God is evil but always had a plan unto Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness. I do think Jesus Christ (not me) existed from the beginning. Before that tree. Just my input. Even in God’s desire that as we have born the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. All through the Old Testament and New there is the pre- existent of one spoken of that shall come. (Imo)

Yes, and Jesus did arrive on time, of the planned season, month, day and hour, indeed

 

[Davy]

The Bible used by Jesus and the Apostles was mostly the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.). From What Bible Did Jesus Use?:

Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was their promised Messiah, it follows that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time!​

​

Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek.​

As has been pointed out in another thread recently (Jesus' God) the Septuagint renders Isaiah 9:6 differently. From Brenton's English Septuagint:

Isaiah 9:6 (BES):

(6) For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

The "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come" was a later addition, so it should not be relied upon.

You've got a long, long way to go to try and reverse Bible Scripture meaning where Jesus referred to Himself as GOD.

 

[Davy]

I should ignore this typical list of non-factual evidence especially when I read again, and again say for the explanation of John 8:58 - by mixing an erroneous Hebrew translated expression out of Exodus and apply it into the Greek language of a NT verse, and again without knowing or deliberately ignoring the context of each verse. When will this insanity and absurdity ever stop....

If you do ignore all those Bible Scriptures examples of Jesus Christ being referred to as God, then you place your belief about Jesus of Nazareth in the SAME boat as the unbelieving Jews, which leads me to ask, ...

Are you a Christian? Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh and died on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe, and that The Father raised Him from the dead? I know your avatar says you are a Christian, but how can you be a Christian if you do not believe Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh? The flesh cannot save us, and that is what the unbelieving Jews relegate Jesus to only by their not believing He is God come in the flesh to defeat death and the devil for us through the cross.

 

[keithr]

Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh and died on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe, and that The Father raised Him from the dead?

1 John 4:2 (WEB):

(2) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,​

Jesus did come in the flesh, but Jesus is not almighty God YHVH, our heavenly Father. As the Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state, Jesus is the Son of God, God's only begotten Son. Jesus came into existence by God, but all other sons of God - the angels and humans - came into existence by/through God's Son Jesus. Here are a few examples (from WEB):

Mark 1:1

(1) The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.​

Luke 22:70

(70) They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.”​

John 1:34

(34) I have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”​

John 9:35-37

(35) Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”​

(36) He answered, “Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him?”​

(37) Jesus said to him, “You have both seen him, and it is he who speaks with you.”​

John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

The Bible says that Jesus came in the flesh, not that almighty God YHVH came in the flesh. The/our Father, God, raised Jesus from the dead:

Acts 3:13-15

(13) The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.​

(14) But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,​

(15) and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, to which we are witnesses.​

If you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, then you are denying the "Holy and Righteous One", Jesus. You are denying the head of the Church - Colossians 1:18 (ISV):

(18) He [Jesus] is also the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself might have first place in everything.​

Colossians 1:3-4 (ISV):

(3) We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, praying always for you,​

(4) because we have heard about your faith in the Messiah Jesus and the love that you have for all the saints,​

To be a Christian you must have belief and faith in the Messiah, Jesus, and in Jesus' and our heavenly Father, almighty God YHVH.

 

[face2face]

If this is it in scripture then that is quite poor for convincing anyone. And if there are a few more suspects lying about then they also add to naught as all of them as well as Phil 2:5-11 fortunately are not about Jesus pre-existing at all.

This Phil portion of scripture has been highly exaggerated to force a pre-existence of Jesus. A form of desperation appeal to something Jesus was not.

Paul spoke about him being made by God and living a humble state of mind and life, for good reason. And he never took advantage of his Father's name and power, as his Father's presence was evident in his life as he existed in a type of form or outward view in action words and mannerisms, as his Father. He never tried to capitalize on this power of God given from heaven, ever for any worldly gain publicity, to gain some vane human reputation. He had the mind of God because God possessed his spirit in full and influence his mind and actions, and later to perform miracles etc., as an empowered created son of man.

As the incarnate believer would plead- cannot you see, He emptied himself, oh wow....look what he did, he was divine and now volunteered to stop being god and become just a man. What a piece of fantasy and trash. Of course is a mantra and must be said over and over again to comply and obey and worship the triune god model they idolize.


and then in John 16:28....these are idioms, (Jesus literally did not actually come down for heaven) yes God his Father is from heaven and HE came down with his pure and holy spirit to create Jesus into this world, and then Jesus will ascend to his Father's domain in heaven, (for the first time).


John 6:62 has been poorly translated and then gives a wrong interpretation.

The word 'ascend' should not be there even though the Greek word 'anabaino' does mean ascend. It needs to be qualified as to what type of rising up!! The context reveal it means a different kind of ascension, it's not Jesus' actual ascension to heaven for the first time. It's his earlier resurrection, by going up out of death to life and planting his feet back on the earth so to speak, as before, FROM WHERE HE WAS BEFORE!.

The context confirms that Jesus was speaking about being the bread from heaven and giving life via his resurrection. Read verses such as 39, 40 and 44 to confirm this as fact.

Jesus repeatedly said, “I will raise him(resurrect) [each believer] up at the last day.” Christ was amazed that even some of his disciples were offended at his teaching. He had been speaking of the resurrection, and they were offended, so he asked them if they would be offended if they saw him resurrected, which has been unfortunately translated as “ascend” in verse 62.'

----no pre-existing scripture...sorry-----------------

You, Wrangler, and Pierac (of late) have an understanding that is far from mainstream. It gives me great strength and encouragement to know that there are believers in the world who have been revealed these truths and are able to correct those who harm themselves with deception.

My study of Philippians 2 cannot be fully understood without grasping the Servant Prophecies in Isaiah 42 - end . These chapters are crucial to understanding the need for a "former" of the servant—One who would shape and mold His only Son to be obedient, even teaching Him through the suffering He experienced every day.

Every Trinitarian should study the Servant Songs, as they form the foundation for much of Paul's writings.

Thanks for a good post.

F2F

 

[Davy]

1 John 4:2 (WEB):

(2) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,​

Jesus did come in the flesh, but Jesus is not almighty God YHVH, our heavenly Father. As the Scriptures clearly and repeatedly state, Jesus is the Son of God, God's only begotten Son. Jesus came into existence by God, but all other sons of God - the angels and humans - came into existence by/through God's Son Jesus. Here are a few examples (from WEB):

But what about all those Bible Scriptures that DO DECLARE JESUS AS CO-EQUAL WITH THE FATHER? Why did you leave all those out?

John 10:32-33
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me?"

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God."
KJV

So the blind Pharisees were stupid in accusing Jesus of His claim to be GOD?


Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

So your belief means to claim that Apostle Matthew was telling a LIE in his above reference to the Isaiah prophecy about Jesus Christ being "Emmanuel", "God with us"?


The below references by Jesus involve powers of The Father, which is a direct pointer by Jesus of His Co-Equal relationship with The Father in The Godhead...

John 5:17-21
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
KJV


John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The "I AM" is one of The Father's sacred Names per Old Testament Scripture. When Jesus said that about Himself, He was claiming His Co-Equal status with The Father.


Phil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV


Even the blind Jews admitted that Jesus was claiming to be GOD when He told the one below that his sins were forgiven. The Jews well knew that only GOD can forgive sins.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
KJV

The Book of Hebrews has many more examples proving that Jesus of Nazareth is GOD come in the flesh.

To be a Christian you must have belief and faith in the Messiah, Jesus, and in Jesus' and our heavenly Father, almighty God YHVH.

Nope, that is not enough.

One MUST also believe that Jesus of Nazareth is "God with us" like the Matthew 1:23 Scripture says, born in the flesh for the purpose of offering remission of sins through His death and resurrection, an act which ONLY Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel, GOD WITH US, could accomplish.

Even common sense reveals that the flesh of man cannot save us, especially not offer forgiveness of sins, even as the blinded Jews admitted in Mark 2:7. Otherwise, it would mean we could save ourselves!

And THAT idea, is from the devil as the author, wanting flesh man to think he can save himself and become his own god.

 

[APAK]

You, Wrangler, and Pierac (of late) have an understanding that is far from mainstream. It gives me great strength and encouragement to know that there are believers in the world who have been revealed these truths and are able to correct those who harm themselves with deception.

My study of Philippians 2 cannot be fully understood without grasping the Servant Prophecies in Isaiah 42 - end . These chapters are crucial to understanding the need for a "former" of the servant—One who would shape and mold His only Son to be obedient, even teaching Him through the suffering He experienced every day.

Every Trinitarian should study the Servant Songs, as they form the foundation for much of Paul's writings.

Thanks for a good post.

F2F

I appreciate the comments F2F. You are on top of scripture. I too feel the same as you with common support from yourself and some others.

Jesus was certainly a very humble man who loved his Father so much that he usually included his love for us to his Father, in many ways and words...

 

[Davy]

I appreciate the comments F2F. You are on top of scripture. I too feel the same as you with common support from yourself and some others.

Jesus was certainly a very humble man who loved his Father so much that he usually included his love for us to his Father, in many ways and words...

Jesus of Nazareth is... Immanuel, GOD with us. (Matthew 1:23)

 

[Davy]

If this is it in scripture then that is quite poor for convincing anyone. And if there are a few more suspects lying about then they also add to naught as all of them as well as Phil 2:5-11 fortunately are not about Jesus pre-existing at all.

This Phil portion of scripture has been highly exaggerated to force a pre-existence of Jesus. A form of desperation appeal to something Jesus was not.

Paul spoke about him being made by God and living a humble state of mind and life, for good reason. And he never took advantage of his Father's name and power, as his Father's presence was evident in his life as he existed in a type of form or outward view in action words and mannerisms, as his Father. He never tried to capitalize on this power of God given from heaven, ever for any worldly gain publicity, to gain some vane human reputation. He had the mind of God because God possessed his spirit in full and influence his mind and actions, and later to perform miracles etc., as an empowered created son of man.

As the incarnate believer would plead- cannot you see, He emptied himself, oh wow....look what he did, he was divine and now volunteered to stop being god and become just a man. What a piece of fantasy and trash. Of course is a mantra and must be said over and over again to comply and obey and worship the triune god model they idolize.


and then in John 16:28....these are idioms, (Jesus literally did not actually come down for heaven) yes God his Father is from heaven and HE came down with his pure and holy spirit to create Jesus into this world, and then Jesus will ascend to his Father's domain in heaven, (for the first time).


John 6:62 has been poorly translated and then gives a wrong interpretation.

The word 'ascend' should not be there even though the Greek word 'anabaino' does mean ascend. It needs to be qualified as to what type of rising up!! The context reveal it means a different kind of ascension, it's not Jesus' actual ascension to heaven for the first time. It's his earlier resurrection, by going up out of death to life and planting his feet back on the earth so to speak, as before, FROM WHERE HE WAS BEFORE!.

The context confirms that Jesus was speaking about being the bread from heaven and giving life via his resurrection. Read verses such as 39, 40 and 44 to confirm this as fact.

Jesus repeatedly said, “I will raise him(resurrect) [each believer] up at the last day.” Christ was amazed that even some of his disciples were offended at his teaching. He had been speaking of the resurrection, and they were offended, so he asked them if they would be offended if they saw him resurrected, which has been unfortunately translated as “ascend” in verse 62.'

----no pre-existing scripture...sorry-----------------

That faulty reasoning is simply vanity by those who reject Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel, GOD with us. Apostle Paul meant what he said in Phil.2 that Jesus is Co-Equal with The Father, and in the Form of GOD...

Phil 2:6-11
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV

Someone rejecting the clarity of what Apostle Paul said above about Jesus of Nazareth reveal they have rejected His Salvation, because ONLY GOD can forgive sins, and The Father was not born in the flesh to die on the cross to accomplish that, but His Son as Immanuel, GOD with us did come in the flesh and accomplished that. Jesus' time in the flesh never prevented His Godship as part of The Godhead and being Co-Equal with The Father, like Apostle Paul said.

So I highly recommend my Christian brethren be careful with listening to these orthodox Jews that come here who reject Jesus of Nazareth as Co-Equal with God like Paul said, and which Hebrews 1 also reveals.