Theosis vs Christlikeness

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Johann

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I will answer one thing, from the quote by Dave Reid, in the manner it was given, by quoting someone else and not engaging in discussion, which is often your habit Johann, and which others have rightly complained about previously:
Aren't you doing the same? Am I expected to have a conversation with Adam Clarke instead, @Hepzibah? Do you truly believe I’m incapable of engaging you-or anyone else, for that matter-in an honest discussion?

Honestly, I feel you're being unfair here, portraying me in a negative light. This seems to be a pattern with you, sister.

That said, I’ll respond to Adam Clarke: I respectfully disagree with him.


Not as though I had already attained - Ουχ ὁτι ηδη ελαβον· For I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted.

Either were already perfect - Η ηδη τετελειωμαι· Nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic games, and the word τετελειωμαι is the proof; for τελειωθηναι is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honored with the prize.



Thus it is used by Philo, Allegoriar. lib. iii. page 101, edit. Mangey: Ποτε ουν, ω ψυχη, μαλιστα νεκροφορειν (νικοφορειν) σεαυτην ὑποληψη· αραγε ουχ ὁταν τελειωθῃς και βραβειων και στεφανων αξιωθῃς “When is it, O soul, that thou shalt appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shalt be perfected, (have completed thy course by death), and be honored with prizes and crowns?”

That τελειωσις signified martyrdom, we learn most expressly from Clemens Alexand., Stromata, lib. iii. page 480, where he has these remarkable words: -
τελειωσιν μαρτυριον καλουμεν, ουχ ὁτι τελος του βιου ὁ ανθρωπος ελεβεν, ῳς οἱ λοιποι, αλλ’ ὁτι τελειον εργον αγαπης ενεδειξατο·

“We call martyrdom τελειωσις, or perfection, not because man receives it as the end, τελος, or completion of life; but because it is the consummation τελειος, of the work of charity.”
So Basil the great, Hom. in Psa_116:13:
Ποτηριον σωτηριου ληψομαι· τουτεστι, διψων επι την δια του μαρτυριου τελειωσιν ερχομαι·
“I will receive the cup of salvation; that is, thirsting and earnestly desiring to come, by martyrdom, to the consummation.”

Any other commentaries you want me to review?

J.
 
J

Johann

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Entire sanctification is scriptural and which means being in a condition of submission to Christ whereby He saves us from sin, which the Bible tells us He came to do.

I am not walking in entire sanctification before you ask.
I believe you are incorrect based on these verses-


Sanctification as Positional (Completed Event)
Hebrews 10:10
"By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Heb 10:10 In G1722 Prep en εν T1 Prep By Which G3739 pr Dat Sg n ho ω T2 RelPro-DNS that Will G2307 n_ Dat Sg n thelemati θεληματι T3 N-DNS will, having-been-hallowed G37 G5772 vp Perf Pas Nom Pl m hegiasmenoi ηγιασμενοι T4 V-RPM/P-NMP having been sanctified We-are G2070 G5748 vi Pres vxx 1 Pl esmen εσμεν T5 - - through G1223 Prep dia δια T6 Prep through The G3588 t_ Gen Sg f tes τησ T7 Art-GFS the offering G4376 n_ Gen Sg f prosphoras προσφορασ T8 N-GFS offering Of-the G3588 t_ Gen Sg n tou του T9 Art-GNS of the Body G4983 n_ Gen Sg n somatos σωματοσ T10 N-GNS body Of-the G3588 t_ Gen Sg m tou tou T11 - - Jesus G2424 n_ Gen Sg m iesou ιησου T12 N-GMS of Jesus Christ G5547 n_ Gen Sg m christou χριστου T13 N-GMS Christ once-for-all G2178 Adv ephapax εφαπαξ T14 Adv once for all.

We have been sanctified (hēgiasmenoi esmen). Periphrastic perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to sanctify. The divine will, unfulfilled in animal sacrifices, is realized in Christ’s offering of himself. “He came to be a great High Priest, and the body was prepared for him, that by the offering of it he might put sinful men for ever into the perfect religious relation to God” (Denney, The Death of Christ, p. 234).



Greek Grammar and Morphology:
ἡγιασμένοι ἐσμέν (hēgiasmenoi esmen):

ἡγιασμένοι: Perfect passive participle of ἁγιάζω (hagiazō, "to sanctify").

The perfect tense indicates a completed action with ongoing results.

The passive voice shows that the sanctification is done by God, not the believer.
ἐσμέν: Present indicative of εἰμί (eimi, "to be"), indicating the state of being sanctified.
This verse emphasizes positional sanctification as a finished work through Christ’s sacrifice, but it does not explicitly affirm or deny entire sanctification in practical terms.

2. Sanctification as Progressive
1 Thessalonians 4:3-4
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor."

Greek Grammar and Morphology:
ἁγιασμός (hagiasmos, "sanctification"):

A noun derived from ἁγιάζω, it denotes the process of becoming holy.

ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν (hagiasmos hymōn, "your sanctification"):
The possessive pronoun ὑμῶν makes sanctification a personal and individual responsibility.

The verb ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai, "to abstain") is in the present infinitive, indicating an ongoing action.

This passage clearly describes sanctification as a process that involves continual effort, suggesting that sanctification is not fully completed in this life.

3. The Goal of Holiness
2 Corinthians 7:1
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."

Greek Grammar and Morphology:
ἐπιτελοῦντες ἁγιωσύνην (epitelountes hagiōsynēn, "bringing holiness to completion"):

ἐπιτελοῦντες: Present active participle of ἐπιτελέω (epiteleō, "to complete" or "perfect"), indicating an ongoing action.

ἁγιωσύνην: A noun meaning "holiness" or "sanctity," derived from ἅγιος (hagios, "holy").

The present participle emphasizes an active, progressive effort toward holiness.

This verse suggests that holiness is a goal being progressively pursued, rather than something already fully achieved.

4. Entire Sanctification or Future Perfection?
Philippians 3:12-14
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own."

I reject Adam Clarke's commentary on this verse

we are sanctified. or, we have been sanctified. A completed act (Lange, p. 170). Perfect participle, thus the effect of the action ever continues. or, we are having been sanctified; that is, in a sanctified state, as having become partakers of the spirit of Christ. This is the work of the eternal spirit [Heb_9:14], whose will is the very will of God. It draws men into its own sphere, and makes them partakers of its holiness (Heb_12:10) [Vincent]. Heb_10:14; Heb_10:29, +Heb_2:11; Heb_6:10; *Heb_13:12; *Heb_13:24, Exo_40:13, Zec_13:1, *Jhn_17:19; Jhn_19:34, Act_20:32; +*Act_26:18, *Rom_8:29; Rom_15:16, +*1Co_1:2; +*1Co_1:30; *1Co_6:11; 1Co_7:14, Eph_5:26, 1Jn_5:6, Jud_1:1.

You think the above is correct and fits your dogma @Hepzibah?


Greek Grammar and Morphology:
τετελείωμαι (teteleōmai, "perfect"):
Perfect passive indicative of τελειόω (teleioō, "to complete" or "perfect").

The perfect tense indicates a state not yet reached in Paul's life.

διώκω (diōkō, "I press on"):
Present active indicative, showing continual striving.

Paul explicitly denies having attained perfection, which counters the idea of entire sanctification in this life.

5. Future Perfection in Glorification
1 John 3:2-3
"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

Greek Grammar and Morphology:
ὅμοιοι αὐτῷ ἐσόμεθα (homoioi autō esometha, "we shall be like him"):

ἐσόμεθα: Future middle indicative of εἰμί (eimi, "to be"), indicating a future transformation.

ἁγνίζει (hagnizei, "purifies"):

Present active indicative, indicating an ongoing process of purification.
This passage links ultimate sanctification to the eschatological event of seeing Christ, affirming that perfection occurs only in the future.


Scripture presents sanctification as both positional (completed at salvation) and progressive (an ongoing process throughout the believer’s life).

Greek grammar and morphology consistently emphasize the progressive aspect of sanctification in this life, while ultimate perfection is reserved for glorification.

The concept of "entire sanctification" as a state of complete holiness in this life lacks strong scriptural support when analyzed in light of Greek grammar.

Instead, the biblical model aligns with sanctification as a journey culminating in future glorification.

You see, @Hepzibah, I’m now having a conversation directly with YOU. Even the Early Church Fathers, to whom you appeal, end up reinforcing my argument-supporting the biblical case rather than that of Adam Clarke.


The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).

But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both

a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ
a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification (i.e., Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]).
SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE (biblical paradoxes)


And WHEN He shall appear we shall be like HIM!

You have a blessed day.

J.
 
J

Johann

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No, so far not so good brother....peace pipe on a mountaintop...?....walking in the Spirit is not like that at all. You need to see some lovely-in-the-Lord genuine examples, not the typical church conference hype. No earthly good..? I'm thinking a deeper consecration would help us to serve the Lord much better, not worse. For me I don't know that I have a handle on it all yet, doing my best to grasp these things, but don't feel I'm understanding or expressing it quite right yet.
Read Matthew 25 and James @Lizbeth.

We are not sinless-we are to sin less and if you don't know WHAT I'm talking about I can give you links to the ECF's, just remember, they are secondary sources.

@Episkopos is way off the beaten path.

J.
 

MatthewG

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Hello @ProDeo

Here is the definition.

Screenshot 2024-12-28 155624.png

There is only one way of being of use, and that is abiding in Christ.
unnamed.jpg

1 Corinthians 1:30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin.

Romans 8:9But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

Galatians 5:17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.

It's all because of him, and that is being set apart, from our fleshly ways opposed to the spiritual ways in and through Christ Yeshua.

Because we live in this flesh, we will still fail, but it's only by abiding in and through Yeshua, that he performs things which are heavenly.
 
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face2face

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This verse comes to mind:

Eph 4:13

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Yes, the perfection was not in nature but in Character...an important distiction otherwise God would not have made such an open show of a crucified body.

Once all know and understand that even in Christ "dwells no good thing!" - evil was always but a moment away and he was in agony everyday till the nature was put to death.

F2F
 

David in NJ

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Yes, the perfection was not in nature but in Character...an important distiction otherwise God would not have made such an open show of a crucified body.

Once all know and understand that even in Christ "dwells no good thing!" - evil was always but a moment away and he was in agony everyday till the nature was put to death.

F2F
Once all know and understand that even in Christ "dwells no good thing!"
Serpent speak from your heart and out your mouth.
 
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face2face

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Serpent speak from your heart and out your mouth.
@amigo de christo

It's a difficult truth to accept, I get it but in time you will come to understand.

John 2:25 states, He did not need anyone to testify about man, for he knew what was in man"

Had not John not already seen Jesus as the Brazen Serpent? John 3:14?

What are you both missing?

F2F
 
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face2face

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Its total blasphemy . Heed not a word outta his lips .
This is the type of response one would expect from those who know not the true Gospel. It must be this way amigo - those who cannot express Jesus Christ as coming in Sin's Flesh cannot have the Spirit of God in them. 1 John 4:3

F2F
 

face2face

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@David in NJ & @amigo de christo

How do we know this to be true - lets test this offensive knowledge?

And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal 5:24

Did Christ do this?

If not, why not?

If so, why so?

If not, how can you both belong to Christ if you can't say "in Christ dwelt the potential to sin?"

6:6 We know that our old man was crucified with him (Jesus) so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Ro 6:6.

How many times did Jesus die to sin David & Amigo?

What do you say?

F2F
 
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ProDeo

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Once all know and understand that even in Christ "dwells no good thing!" - evil was always but a moment away and he was in agony everyday till the nature was put to death.

F2F
What?!

Is that in line with the church you belong to?
 
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face2face

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Absurd.

That you don't understand the Gospel ?
What's absurd is you don't understand the Victory God achieved in His Son.

You are not unlike the Master in Israel (Nicodemus) who missed the point of the “Serpent in the wilderness” ...the law could do nothing for the sting of death! 1 Cor 15:55-57

What had to be lifted up Pro?

And why?

Let me help you.

The putting to death of the flesh required a public exhibition.

But why?

Note! “If I be lifted up”. Jh 12:32 is in the context of “all men” also v20, 26, 32

“This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself Jn 12:30–32.

How did God remove the ruler of this world (its power!) by the lifting up of Christ?

Looks like you are learning the Gospel!

You will need Hebrews 2 to answer this....

F2F
 
J

Johann

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"Verse 12. Not as though I had already attained. For I have not yet received the prize; for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17
Here’s what I have gathered and gleaned from studying this passage, @Hepzibah and brother @marks. Apologies for tagging you, but I’d love to know if you’re in agreement with this exegesis of the verse.

Paul's words in Philippians 3:12 and the surrounding verses use vivid language and grammatical constructions that draw upon the metaphor of athletic competition, particularly from the context of the Olympic Games.

Philippians 3:12 (Textus Receptus):
"Οὐχ ὅτι ἤδη ἔλαβον ἢ ἤδη τετελείωμαι, διώκω δὲ εἰ καὶ καταλάβω, ἐφ' ᾧ καὶ κατελήφθην ὑπὸ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ."
("Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.")
Php 3:4 though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
Php 3:5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
Php 3:6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
Php 3:7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
Php 3:8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
Php 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ—the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
Php 3:10 to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death,
Php 3:11 if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead.

Php 3:12 Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus;

I have already obtained (ēdē elabon). Rather, “I did already obtain,” constative second aorist active indicative of lambanō, summing up all his previous experiences as a single event.

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end).

Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience.

Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

But I press on (diōkō de). He is not discouraged, but encouraged. He keeps up the chase (real idea in diōkō, as in 1Co_14:1; Rom_9:30; 1Ti_6:11).

If so be that (ei kai). “I follow after.” The condition (third class, ei̇̇katalabō, second aorist active subjunctive of katalambanō) is really a sort of purpose clause or aim. There are plenty of examples in the Koiné[28928]š of the use of ei and the subjunctive as here (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1017), “if I also may lay hold of that for which (Ephesians' hōi, purpose expressed by epi) I was laid hold of (katelēmphthēn, first aorist passive of the same verb katalambanō) by Christ Jesus.”
His conversion was the beginning, not the end of the chase.
VWP.

However-putting Vincent to the test--

ἔλαβον is indeed the second aorist active indicative of λαμβάνω (lambanō, "to take/receive"), and it refers to a completed action.

However, translating it as "I did already obtain" is somewhat awkward in English.

The aorist here negates any claim of completed attainment ("Not as though I have already attained"). While the aorist can summarize an action as a single whole, it does not require a "constative" function in this context.

The idea is that Paul is explicitly denying that he has already achieved the goal of full spiritual attainment or final salvation.
Be cautious when describing the aorist tense as "constative" in this context. While it can summarize an action as a whole, the primary point here is negation rather than summation of prior events.

The connection between Paul's denial of perfection and his continual striving could be expanded with more emphasis on the broader theological implications of sanctification as a process rather than a completed state in this life.

Php 3:13 brethren, I do not reckon myself to have laid hold; and one thing—the things behind indeed forgetting, and to the things before stretching forth—
Php 3:14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 As many, therefore, as are perfect—let us think this, and if in anything ye think otherwise, this also shall God reveal to you,

As many as be perfect (hosoi teleioi). Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection so pointedly denied in Php_3:12. Paul here includes himself in the group of spiritual adults (see Heb_5:13).

Php 3:16 but to what we have come—by the same rule walk, the same thing think;
Php 3:17 become followers together of me, brethren, and observe those thus walking, according as ye have us—a pattern;
Php 3:18 for many walk of whom many times I told you—and now also weeping tell—the enemies of the cross of the Christ!
Php 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who the things on earth are minding.
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ—
Php 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.


1. Key Grammatical and Syntactical Features
οὐχ ὅτι (not that):

This phrase introduces a clarification or disclaimer, negating any false assumption that Paul has already achieved his ultimate goal.

ἤδη ἔλαβον (already attained):
The verb ἔλαβον is in the aorist tense, emphasizing a completed action in the past. Paul denies having fully "attained" his goal, signaling that his ultimate salvation and perfection are yet to be realized.

ἢ ἤδη τετελείωμαι (or were already perfect):
The verb τετελείωμαι is in the perfect tense and passive voice, suggesting a state of completion that results from prior action. Paul is clarifying that he has not yet reached the state of perfection (spiritual maturity or ultimate sanctification).

διώκω (I follow after):
This verb is in the present tense, indicating continuous, active pursuit. Paul portrays himself as persistently striving toward a goal, much like an athlete pursuing victory in a race.

εἰ καὶ καταλάβω (if I may apprehend):
The verb καταλάβω is in the aorist subjunctive, expressing the possibility or goal of "apprehending" or "grasping" something fully. This shows Paul's hope and effort toward achieving what he has not yet obtained.

ἐφ' ᾧ καὶ κατελήφθην (for which I am apprehended):
The verb κατελήφθην is in the aorist passive, pointing to Christ's decisive act of "apprehending" Paul. This refers to Paul's conversion and calling, where Christ took hold of him for a purpose.

2. Interpretation of the Athletic Imagery
Paul employs the metaphor of an athletic contest, particularly a race, to describe his spiritual journey:

"Not that I have already attained":
Paul acknowledges that the prize (final salvation or resurrection) is not yet in his possession. In the context of the Olympics, this corresponds to not having crossed the finish line or received the victor’s crown.

"I follow after":
This reflects the strenuous effort of a runner pressing toward the goal. The present tense conveys the ongoing nature of this pursuit, emphasizing perseverance and dedication.

"If I may apprehend":
The subjunctive mood implies an uncertainty or contingency,showing that the race is not yet complete and the outcome is not guaranteed. The goal is to grasp fully the purpose for which Christ "apprehended" him, i.e., to be conformed to Christ's image.

"For which I am apprehended by Christ Jesus":
Paul grounds his striving in the prior work of Christ, who initiated the relationship by seizing him. This divine action serves as both the foundation and motivation for Paul's effort.

3. Broader Context (Philippians 3:11–17)
In verse 13, Paul continues: "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before." Here, the verbs forgetting and reaching forth reflect the focused determination of an athlete disregarding distractions and stretching toward the finish line.

In verse 14, Paul writes: "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." The word press (διώκω) reiterates the effort and urgency of the race, and the "prize" (βραβεῖον) is the ultimate reward, akin to the wreath given to victors.





J.
 

Hepzibah

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Aren't you doing the same? Am I expected to have a conversation with Adam Clarke instead, @Hepzibah? Do you truly believe I’m incapable of engaging you-or anyone else, for that matter-in an honest discussion?

Honestly, I feel you're being unfair here, portraying me in a negative light. This seems to be a pattern with you, sister.

That said, I’ll respond to Adam Clarke: I respectfully disagree with him.


Not as though I had already attained - Ουχ ὁτι ηδη ελαβον· For I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted.

Either were already perfect - Η ηδη τετελειωμαι· Nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic games, and the word τετελειωμαι is the proof; for τελειωθηναι is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honored with the prize.



Thus it is used by Philo, Allegoriar. lib. iii. page 101, edit. Mangey: Ποτε ουν, ω ψυχη, μαλιστα νεκροφορειν (νικοφορειν) σεαυτην ὑποληψη· αραγε ουχ ὁταν τελειωθῃς και βραβειων και στεφανων αξιωθῃς “When is it, O soul, that thou shalt appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shalt be perfected, (have completed thy course by death), and be honored with prizes and crowns?”

That τελειωσις signified martyrdom, we learn most expressly from Clemens Alexand., Stromata, lib. iii. page 480, where he has these remarkable words: -
τελειωσιν μαρτυριον καλουμεν, ουχ ὁτι τελος του βιου ὁ ανθρωπος ελεβεν, ῳς οἱ λοιποι, αλλ’ ὁτι τελειον εργον αγαπης ενεδειξατο·

“We call martyrdom τελειωσις, or perfection, not because man receives it as the end, τελος, or completion of life; but because it is the consummation τελειος, of the work of charity.”
So Basil the great, Hom. in Psa_116:13:
Ποτηριον σωτηριου ληψομαι· τουτεστι, διψων επι την δια του μαρτυριου τελειωσιν ερχομαι·
“I will receive the cup of salvation; that is, thirsting and earnestly desiring to come, by martyrdom, to the consummation.”

Any other commentaries you want me to review?

J.
"Aren't you doing the same? Am I expected to have a conversation with Adam Clarke instead, @Hepzibah? Do you truly believe I’m incapable of engaging you-or anyone else, for that matter-in an honest discussion?"


Yes Johann, I did the same to prove my point, and you even confirmed my suspicions that you would dislike the thing that you have been doing, often, including #21 on this thread, in which I critiqued the author of the commentary you provided in response to my words without complaining.

You have also had objections from others about the way you behave in discussions, in flooding the discussions with long posts and cutting and pasting so much. This should have been of benefit as useful feedback. But I do not wish to offend you brother as I have appreciated your knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and grown in respect for you otherwise.

It is not to portray you in a negative light, it is just a fact, to help the flow of the discussions. If someone sees a problem, should one not say something without being too rude or confrontational, which takes place too much on this board?

The problem is that we are dealing with two completely different religions, Protestantism v Orthodoxy, synergism v monergism, and I am not experienced enough to act as an Orthodox apologist to counter your misread understandings of the early fathers.

One cannot just dive into their writings without guidance and the problem is that anyone can cherry pick to have them agree with anything one believes. The Orthodox have always taken a consensus, and not looking to a few (or even just one), as you have done regarding Theosis ie event v gradual sanctification. It is an entirely different culture and one must understand the mindset, as you must know, having so many languages, you told me, at your disposal.

I very much recommend Orthodox-Reformed Bridge – A Meeting Place for Evangelicals, Reformed, and Orthodox Christians which is a meeting place for Protestants, and Orthodox, authored by the very knowledgeable Orthodox, ex-Protestant Robert Arakaki for anyone attempting to read the ECF's, to give one a much better basis for debate. I do appreciate that you have made an effort there, but it is not enough.
 

face2face

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You said - Once all know and understand that even in Christ "dwells no good thing!"

Does this mean Jesus was a sinner?
Answer the question.

How many times did Jesus die to sin?

F2F
 
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