Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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David in NJ
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Aunty
You are my favorite Aunt
JESUS says to you and me: "Unless we become as a trusting child we will not be able to enter the Kingdom of God"
At that time I was standing between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and would not go up the mountain. And He said: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1a commandment = no other gods = such as "the Word was a god"
1b commandment = If you love Me,
1c commandment = Love the Lord Jesus Christ and keep His commandments
Pray to the Lord Jesus Christ that you may SEE
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Still not understanding you. Are you saying that the Hebrew matters because it indicates "GODS" = Plural = Identity = Truth = Salvation?
David in NJ
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David in NJ
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David in NJ
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David in NJ
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David in NJ
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Concerning the beginning of nations = i do not think so!!!
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one mand He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Brother, you need to immerse yourself in Genesis
Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
5But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
God divides the nations according to their genealogy.
So, then they spread out like He had told them to do after the flood.
At Babel, God confused their language so they could not understand each other.
But by dividing them into nations, those who could understand another formed into tribal groups is what makes sense to me.
It does seem like Genesis 11 ought to occur within Genesis 10, but I was not there to know.
The story feels out of time sequence
Genesis 11 is likely going into more detail and is really part of Genesis 10. Someone else in the 1200's AD setup chapters and verses.
Gen 10
2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, [a]Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and [b]Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.
6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, [c]Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.
8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).
13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).
15 Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; 17 the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.
21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, [d]the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. 23 The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and [e]Mash. 24 [f]Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. 25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was [g]Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. 26 Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 [h]Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. 31 These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.
32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
Gen 11
Now the whole earth had one language and one [a]speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and [b]bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called [c]Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
So, then they spread out like He had told them to do after the flood.
At Babel, God confused their language so they could not understand each other.
But by dividing them into nations, those who could understand another formed into tribal groups is what makes sense to me.
It does seem like Genesis 11 ought to occur within Genesis 10, but I was not there to know.
The story feels out of time sequence
Genesis 11 is likely going into more detail and is really part of Genesis 10. Someone else in the 1200's AD setup chapters and verses.
Gen 10
Nations Descended from Noah
10 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, [a]Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and [b]Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.
6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, [c]Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.
8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).
13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).
15 Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; 17 the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.
21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, [d]the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. 23 The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and [e]Mash. 24 [f]Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. 25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was [g]Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. 26 Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 [h]Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. 31 These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.
32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
Gen 11
Now the whole earth had one language and one [a]speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and [b]bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called [c]Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
“Entering the kingdom” is reserved for the elect….the “saints” or “holy ones”…..not all Christians are chosen for a role in heaven…..Yahweh did not create humans for life in heaven, which is why these “chosen ones” must be “born again” as spirit beings in order to enter that realm. Being “born again” is not something one does in mortal flesh. It is a complete transformation.
Those who love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ have had their eyes opened to the real truth about life and death….about who goes to heaven and what they will do there, along with those who will be their earthly subjects when God has restored his original purpose for the human race. (Rev 21:2-3)
Can you tell me what that was? Why are we here? And until Christ came, what expectations did the Jews have regarding the role of the Messiah?
The LORD there is of course Yahweh…..not Jesus. Jesus was a worshipper of Yahweh long before human kind existed. Yahweh is still his God, in heaven…..so how does God have a God? (Rev 3:12)
Please explain….
Again, the only LORD referred to by Moses was Yahweh…..the Jews had never heard of a trinity. Which means that the first Christians hadn’t either, since they were all Jewish.…..including their Messiah.
Amazing how you can just read right over the clearest explanation possible….it’s a certain kind of blindness…(2 Cor 4:3-4) He was a “divine” personage as he stated…..he was not “ho theos” but his Father was. Being called “a god” in Greek is not the same as we would understand the term in English. Being a divine son of God carries the same meaning….
Strongs primary definition of “theos” is…
- a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.
It can also mean….
- “spoken of the only and true God
- refers to the things of God
- his counsels, interests, things due to him
- whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
- God's representative or viceregent
- of magistrates and judges”
- God's representative or viceregent
If we adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ then putting him on equal footing with his God and Father would be considered blasphemy……”the Father is greater than I am” wasn’t just an admission that he was inferior to his God only in the flesh….he worships his Father even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)
My prayer is for your eyes to be opened to see what you are doing…..you have not one, but three “gods” in place of the Father….
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Your prayer was answered 40 years ago by the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ who washed me from my sins.
My prayer for you is the SAME as the Lord Jesus Christ = that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.
In Deut 5:6-10 there are 3 Commandments that are ECHAD Commandment for ECHAD Elohim
Brother, you need to immerse yourself in the study of Linguistics. What you are citing is a cute myth. In reality, that is not how languages emerged.
Verse six is particularly cute: "And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them." Do you honestly believe that if all of mankind had a single common language, mankind could do ANYTHING? Do you honestly believe that GOD thought so?
I should mention that Genesis 10:5 states that the descendants of Noah dispersed through the region "with their own tongues." Thus, there were multiple languages prior to the tower, EVEN ACCORDING TO GENESIS! So much for Genesis 11:1's declaration that the whole earth had one language!
Get with the program, my friend. Not everything in Genesis is to be taken literally.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not an answer to my prayer….
Here is Deut 5:6-10 from the Jewish Tanakh….
| 6 "I am the Lord your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. | ואָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֲשֶׁ֧ר הֽוֹצֵאתִ֛יךָ מֵאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרַ֖יִם מִבֵּ֥ית עֲבָדִֽים: | |
| 7 You shall not have the gods of others in My presence. | זלֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֥ה לְךָ֛ אֱלֹהִ֥ים אֲחֵרִ֖ים עַל־פָּנָֽי: | |
| 8 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. | חלֹא־תַֽעֲשֶׂ֨ה לְךָ֥ פֶ֨סֶל֙ כָּל־תְּמוּנָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֤ר בַּשָּׁמַ֨יִם֙ מִמַּ֔עַל וַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר בָּאָ֖רֶץ מִתָּ֑חַת וַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר בַּמַּ֖יִם מִתַּ֥חַת לָאָֽרֶץ: | |
| 9 You shall not prostrate yourself before them, nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me. | טלֹֽא־תִשְׁתַּֽחֲוֶ֥ה לָהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֥א תָֽעָבְדֵ֑ם כִּ֣י אָֽנֹכִ֞י יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙ אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵ֠ד עֲוֹ֨ן אָב֧וֹת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים וְעַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֽׂנְאָֽי: | |
| 10 And perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations] of those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments. |
The LORD God is YHWH….. יְהֹוָ֣ה
Yahweh is “the only true God“ and Jesus is the one he “sent”. (John 17:3)
ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼeloʹah, sometimes in the numerical sense (Gen. 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it signifies the plural of majesty, dignity or excellence, ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural) and to men.—Gen. 1:1; Ps. 8:5 Judg. 16:23; Ex. 20:23; Ps. 82:6.
Jesus knew this, but satan invented a false god to substitute for the true God……just as he substituted himself for the true God right at the very beginning. Humans chose him by their actions, just as they choose him to this day.
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I believe this site is from Sefaria-correct @Aunty Jane?
"And showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
This is often found in the context of Exodus 20:6 or Deuteronomy 5:10, highlighting God's covenantal faithfulness and mercy toward those who remain loyal to Him by loving Him and obeying His commandments. The phrase "showing mercy" (עֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד) emphasizes God’s steadfast love or covenantal kindness (חֶסֶד) extended to generations.
J.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The LORD God is YHWH….. יְהֹוָ֣ה
the FATHER “the only true God“ and Jesus Christ is the one he “sent”. (John 17:3) = 3 are in this verse
Fixed it for ya
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all Comfort,
i SEE 3
Pray for the Lord Jesus Christ to SAVE you from every false doctrine of man such as "the Word was a god"
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