When the saints are overcome

[Dan Clarkston]

SEE Post 179

There are two distinct realms in which we can be overcome.

This scripture you posted proves this.
John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Jesus... was never overcome at all.

We too... can be like Jesus and disallow the devil to over come us.

Romans 8:37
in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus... was never overcome at all.

We too... can be like Jesus and disallow the devil to over come us.

Romans 8:37
in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Separate physical from spiritual

JESUS was NEVER overcome by Satan/Sin/Temptation

JESUS offered His Body as a living sacrafice to be overcome by Satan and SIN


Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?a
2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no stately form or majesty to attract us,
no beauty that we should desire Him.
3He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief.
Like one from whom men hide their faces,
He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
4Surely He took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.
6We all like sheep have gone astray,
each one has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid upon Him
the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was cut-off, = overcome
and who can recount His descendants?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was stricken for the transgression of My people.

 

[grafted branch]

Death is a curse and a judgment from God
JESUS allowed His Body to be overcome by the Sanhedrin and Rome = "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

You still haven’t supplied a verse that states He was overcome. It appears to me that you are trying to claim Jesus’s body was overcome from the Sanhedrin and Rome perspective but from a Christian perspective that’s not true. The only victory was for the Christians, the Sanhedrin and Rome didn’t receive a victory, they lost.

The grandson who won at checkers would say he overcame his grandfather but that really wasn’t the case. Are you proposing that we need to read and interpret the Bible from a Christian perspective, from a Sanhedrin perspective, from a Rome perspective, and maybe even from an unbelievers perspective, and then choose one of those perspectives as the correct one?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

JESUS offered His Body as a living sacrafice to be overcome by Satan and SIN

This is the part you are not understanding.... Jesus was never overcome.

He chose to lay His life down unto death as this was His mission to fulfill.

He surrendered His life.... and was NOT over come because He laid His life down

Big difference between being overcome and surrendering which you aren't getting

 

[David in NJ]

You still haven’t supplied a verse that states He was overcome. It appears to me that you are trying to claim Jesus’s body was overcome from the Sanhedrin and Rome perspective but from a Christian perspective that’s not true. The only victory was for the Christians, the Sanhedrin and Rome didn’t receive a victory, they lost.

The grandson who won at checkers would say he overcame his grandfather but that really wasn’t the case. Are you proposing that we need to read and interpret the Bible from a Christian perspective, from a Sanhedrin perspective, from a Rome perspective, and maybe even from an unbelievers perspective, and then choose one of those perspectives as the correct one?

Satan and religion are the TEMPORARY Victors on this earth when they crucified the Lord, the Apostles and Stephen

There are TWO separate modes of being overcome.

JESUS gave His physical Body to be overcome by:
a.) false witnesses
b.) illegal court proceedings with the Jews
c.) illegal verdict of death by Rome

JESUS never gave Himself to SIN, and thru His PERFECT/SINLESS Obedience to the FATHER HE overcame the World and Satan

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You still haven’t supplied a verse that states He was overcome

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He was not overcome... but He did lay His life down and became obedient unto death which is separation from God.

 

[David in NJ]

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He was not overcome... but He did lay His life down and became obedient unto death which is separation from God.

Physical death overcame His physical Body = DEATH ruled over JESUS Body = TEMPORARILY

After 3 Days HE ROSE from the Grave/Death because HE committed no sin!!!

There are TWO separate deaths by which we can be OVERCOME by.

JESUS chose for His Body to be overcome by physical death so that HE could Overcome Death - Get it?

 

[grafted branch]

Satan and religion are the TEMPORARY Victors on this earth when they crucified the Lord, the Apostles and Stephen

There are TWO separate modes of being overcome.

JESUS gave His physical Body to be overcome by:
a.) false witnesses
b.) illegal court proceedings with the Jews
c.) illegal verdict of death by Rome

JESUS never gave Himself to SIN, and thru His PERFECT/SINLESS Obedience to the FATHER HE overcame the World and Satan

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Well that would only be from Satans perspective tho. The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7 and the Bible is always interpreted from a believers perspective.

Now, if you have the believers capable of losing salvation then that can work concerning this verse but I’m not of the opinion that salvation can be lost.

The solution that fits for a OSAS position is that the saints in Revelation 13:7 are OT saints. In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses calls all the children of Israel collectively saints. That included both those of faith and those who didn’t have faith. It was the OT saints that were overcome and killed their Messiah.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He was not overcome... but He did lay His life down and became obedient unto death which is separation from God.

Absolutely agree with you on this.

 

[David in NJ]

Well that would only be from Satans perspective tho. The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7 and the Bible is always interpreted from a believers perspective.

Now, if you have the believers capable of losing salvation then that can work concerning this verse but I’m not of the opinion that salvation can be lost.

The solution that fits for a OSAS position is that the saints in Revelation 13:7 are OT saints. In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses calls all the children of Israel collectively saints. That included both those of faith and those who didn’t have faith. It was the OT saints that were overcome and killed their Messiah.


Absolutely agree with you on this.

Satans' perspective is = The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7

God's perspective is the saints become overcomers SAME as the Lord Jesus Christ = Rev 12:11

And they overcame him/satan by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



they overcame = by the blood of the Lamb = they loved not their lives unto the death

 

[grafted branch]

Satans' perspective is = The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7

God's perspective is the saints become overcomers SAME as the Lord Jesus Christ = Rev 12:11

And they overcame him/satan by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



they overcame = by the blood of the Lamb = they loved not their lives unto the death

Claiming we need to interpret some verses from Satan’s perspective is a major point in the method of how the Bible should be interpreted. Interpreting this way can completely change the meaning of verses into the opposite of what is actually meant.

In Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins. Let’s say I interpret this from the Satan’s perspective and call the wise virgins wise in the ways of the world and the foolish virgins as being foolish because they believe in Jesus.

I can then come to the conclusion that wise virgins went with the first bridegroom which was really the Antichrist while the foolish virgins went back and read the Bible to get more oil.

Would that be a valid interpretation of the parable of the ten virgins?

 

[grafted branch]

they overcame = by the blood of the Lamb = they loved not their lives unto the death

Do you have the saints overcoming the beast while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints? I guess that makes everyone a winner and everyone a loser at the same time.

 

[David in NJ]

Claiming we need to interpret some verses from Satan’s perspective is a major point in the method of how the Bible should be interpreted. Interpreting this way can completely change the meaning of verses into the opposite of what is actually meant.

In Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins. Let’s say I interpret this from the Satan’s perspective and call the wise virgins wise in the ways of the world and the foolish virgins as being foolish because they believe in Jesus.

I can then come to the conclusion that wise virgins went with the first bridegroom which was really the Antichrist while the foolish virgins went back and read the Bible to get more oil.

Would that be a valid interpretation of the parable of the ten virgins?

Claiming we need to interpret some verses from Satan’s perspective

#1 - No one is advocating we interpret some verses
#2 - No one is advocating interpreting scripture from Satan's perspective

TRUTH - GOD is interpreting scripture for us from HIS Perspective = Revelation 12:11


Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to overcome them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.a

9He who has an ear, let him hear:

10“If anyone is destined for captivity,

into captivity he will go;

if anyone is to dieb by the sword,

by the sword he must be killed.”c

Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

 

[David in NJ]

Do you have the saints overcoming the beast while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints? I guess that makes everyone a winner and everyone a loser at the same time.

The GOSPEL offers this to "whoever hears and comes to JESUS":

Choose to be TEMPORARILY overcome in this life so that a man/woman can be VICTORIOUS in ETERNAL LIFE = FOREVER

 

[grafted branch]

The GOSPEL offers this to "whoever hears and comes to JESUS":

Choose to be TEMPORARILY overcome in this life so that a man/woman can be VICTORIOUS in ETERNAL LIFE = FOREVER

You have yet to supply a verse that says believers can be overcome in this world. I can show you multiple verses that state believers are victorious and overcome this world but you haven’t given me any verses that say otherwise.

I personally need to believe the Bible not the opinion of others, and until you can provide the verses that agree with your view I have to look at it as pure unsupported speculation.

 

[grafted branch]

#1 - No one is advocating we interpret some verses
#2 - No one is advocating interpreting scripture from Satan's perspective

Satans' perspective is = The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7

Ok, fair enough, I thought you were advocating for interpreting scripture from Satan’s perspective when you said “Satans' perspective is = The Saints are overcome in Revelation 13:7”.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, “overcome” can mean either physically or spiritually but as I have been repeating, a Christian can’t be overcome either way, physical or spiritual. You have not yet given any verses that support your view on this.


You have yet to show a verse that states a saint can be overcome by being physically killed. To me it looks like you are claiming something that isn’t taught in the Bible.

Can you show me the verses that say physical death overcomes a believer?


Agreed, but again it’s not referring to new covenant believers. It’s referring to old covenant believers.


You are right, we are very far apart. All you have to do is give some verses that say physical death overcomes believers and I can start to see your position but until then it looks like you have no support for claiming it’s NT saints that are overcome.

I can give you a list of verses that show NT saints are not overcome by death if you want.

First, you acknowledge that the word "overcome" can mean physically or spiritually and then you proceed to say it can't mean physically in relation to Christians. That seems contradictory, so you need to explain what you're talking about. In what sense do you think someone can be overcome physically and why can't a Christian be overcome in that sense?

You have yet to show a verse that states a saint can be overcome by being physically killed. To me it looks like you are claiming something that isn’t taught in the Bible.

Can you show me the verses that say physical death overcomes a believer?

That word isn't even used much in scripture, so this isn't the way to determine the truth of this matter. You acknowledge that the word can be used in a physical sense, so why can't it be used to reference the physical death of a believer?

Agreed, but again it’s not referring to new covenant believers. It’s referring to old covenant believers.

Where are you getting this idea from?

You are right, we are very far apart. All you have to do is give some verses that say physical death overcomes believers and I can start to see your position but until then it looks like you have no support for claiming it’s NT saints that are overcome.

I can give you a list of verses that show NT saints are not overcome by death if you want.

Of course they are not overcome spiritually by death and you know that I'm not saying otherwise. It seems that despite saying "“overcome” can mean either physically or spiritually" you don't actually believe that and think it can only be used in a spiritual sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, I agree that persecution has happened to most all Christians in some way or another and there certainly has been quite a few Christians that have died for their faith. None of this is called being “overcome”. The word “overcome” means to lose, be subdued or defeated in some way.

A Christian be subdued and defeated physically, but what matters is that a Christian is not subdued or defeated spiritually as a result. That's why the verse which talks about them being able to kill our body, but not our soul, is brought up. You are not differentiating between the physical and the spiritual for some reason.

How can physical death be looked at as being overcome when absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

It's not a case of being overcome spiritually, it's only a case of being overcome physically. Why can't you see that the word can be used to describe being physically overcome and not just used to described being spiritually overcome?

 

[ewq1938]

I agree, Satan made war and overcame the saints. That is clearly stated but the verses that are being looked at in the symbolic book of Revelation should be interpreted in the light of the epistles and gospels. All the verses in the epistles and gospels that talk about physical persecution and death always refer to it in a positive victorious manner for the NT Christian.

So? Being overcome by the enemy is positive. The saints will be overcome by the enemy during the trib. You deny this despite it being in your bible.

 

[grafted branch]

First, you acknowledge that the word "overcome" can mean physically or spiritually and then you proceed to say it can't mean physically in relation to Christians. That seems contradictory, so you need to explain what you're talking about. In what sense do you think someone can be overcome physically and why can't a Christian be overcome in that sense?

The word “overcome” simply means to get a victory over someone or something. If two people are in a fight to the death, the person that died was overcome. If two people are playing chess, the person who is in check mate is overcome. A person can be overcome with anger because it’s something they can’t control. To be overcome is always negative or undesirable and for one to overcome something it’s always positive or something to be desired.

Christians are often said to have given their life to Jesus when they become saved, this includes our physical bodies that are given to Christ. This is a positive thing, it’s desirable.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The physical body of a Christian that they presented as a living sacrifice is no longer theirs after that act. When a Christian physically dies for their faith they haven’t lost anything, that physical body was already sacrificed and presented to God.

Physical death for a Christian is a net positive, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and besides this absent from our bodies is only a temporary situation as the dead in Christ will rise first.

All these things are known to a Christian and they fully expect Gods will to be done in their lives and if it’s Gods will to remove them from the physical body that they already sacrificed to God then they are not overcome by any means, it’s all positive and desirable.

It's not a case of being overcome spiritually, it's only a case of being overcome physically. Why can't you see that the word can be used to describe being physically overcome and not just used to described being spiritually overcome?

The reason is that there are no verses in the epistles that say a Christian can be overcome by physical death. Physical death is always a net positive for a believer who has died for their faith.

 

[grafted branch]

So? Being overcome by the enemy is positive.

A believer who dies for their faith is absolutely a positive thing, it’s an honor and a privilege to give one’s life for their Lord.

The saints will be overcome by the enemy during the trib. You deny this despite it being in your bible.

No, I haven’t denied that. The saints that are overcome are OT saints because NT saints can’t be overcome.