Well David is must be obvious that to be the 2nd Adam, Jesus had to be created like the 1st Adam by the Spirit of God, although this time via a female human vessel. And what do you get when this female vessel conceives, it called conception or creation of baby and then its birth. Elementary I would say, unlike you want to say that Jesus was unmade or uncreated....and that would be really funny
On the pre-existence of Jesus
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, i AGREE with Hebrews 10:5-7 that ONLY a body was prepared inside Mary's womb.
The PERSON of the WORD was never created either by Elohim or by Mary's womb.
Which takes us back to the Gospel
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have a 'HE' in Hebrews 10:5 that corresponds to and is the same 'HE' in John chapter 1.
Therefore, based on grade school/high school grammar, we know that the HE that was the Word was never created.
I would not be so confused David. The abuse and misuse and confusion on/of who is the Christ the Son God have/had some/many folks eventually planting their flags in the beginning verses of John 1 out of desperation in an effort to find a foothold in their religious paganism. It's the touchstone for heathen Greek philosophers, and some so-called church fathers, and some false Jewish mystics and alike. It is a bold faced lie. The logos can never be a person let along become a male human being called Jesus. It is an artificial implant with its artificially labelled Capitalized 'Word'. I would stay away form it if I were you.
The word of God came into Jesus, indeed, although the word itself is the divine quality of God the Father himself, period. It is his core attribute...
..its a big subject indeed and false Christianity hangs its hat, or depended on this fantasy the the word is the Son of God, as their truth for the nature of God..
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Many 'christians' do not understand or know what the exact meaning of "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."
This is a JEWISH TORAH PROCLAMATION from the Five Books of Moses and the Prophets
the OT Jew, Apostle John, new this as well and thus his gospel and his letters that really explain this
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.
By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
What are people 'acknowledging' about Jesus??? -
JESUS says "out of the heart a man speaks"
the Apostle John was a true Jew of faith who walked with the Lord Jesus Christ and knew the Torah and the Commandments
As a Jew and especially as a Apostle, John would NEVER of wrote - "the Word was God" if it were not TRUTH from the TORAH
This is why and what John knew and BELIEVED = Torah = the Five Books of Moses, where the Lord Jesus Christ can be SEEN
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before Me. - Deuteronomy 5:7
When John speaks of "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh", he is declaring that Jesus Christ is 'the LORD' of Torah who spoke to Moses
Something else that John wrote that not many 'christians' know = "no lie is of the Truth"
Every time the inspired Scriptures speak of the pre-human life of Jesus, they declare that he was "at God's side" not inside his mind. In fact, Jesus prayed to his Father saying:
John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
The original wording is:
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, __ So now glorify me, you, Father,
παρὰ σεαυτῷ __ at your side
τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον __ with the glory that I had
πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι __ before the world was
παρὰ σοί. __ alongside you.
Jesus clearly and very well remembers the glory he had when he was at the Father's side and that's why he asks to be granted again.
About John 8:56-58:
John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
The original Greek wording is:
πρὶν __ Before
Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι __ Abraham came to exist
ἐγὼ εἰμί. __ I am
An easy to understand translation of that would be: I DO EXIST SINCE BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN.
Here I quote 4 passages showing Jesus coming from heaven, changing form to flesh:
John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.
Phil. 2:7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.
1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’
Heb. 2:14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The imaginings are actually yours in the above, because in several New Testament Scriptures Jesus of Nazareth emphatically declared that He is GOD. That John 8 Chapter was one such example...
John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV
The "I AM" is one of The Father's sacred names. Jesus saying that about Himself was His declaring that He is God come in the flesh.
Jesus' Name in Isaiah of "Immanuel" also is proof that He is God come in the flesh, as the meaning of that Name Immanuel is 'God with us' (Matthew 1:23).
In Revelation 1:8 Jesus declares Himself as "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending", also one of The Father's Names in The Old Testament (Isaiah 41:4).
The unbelieving Jews sought to stone Jesus, not just for political reasons, but because Jesus claimed to be GOD...
John 10:32-33
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God."
KJV
So there it is, and only just a few New Testament examples of Jesus claiming to be GOD. And the unbelieving Jews understood His claiming that too, and wanted to stone Him for it!
So those who keeping dilly-dallying around the bush trying to go against the actual Bible Scripture of Jesus shown as GOD having come in the flesh are only serving the unbelief of the Jews who wanted Jesus killed for His claiming to be GOD.
And what is truly AMAZING... is that still today in The Old Testament Book of Isaiah 9, which today's orthodox unbelieving Jews have in their possession, the following is written and has been written since old covenant times...
Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
That above is a DIRECT REFERENCE to Jesus of Nazareth as... GOD come in the flesh. So even the unbelieving Jews who reject that above Old Testament Scripture are CONVICTED of heresy against Jesus Christ, Immanuel.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Use of men's philosophy of Humanism does not work regarding what God's Word reveals.
Per John 4:24 "God is a Spirit", which means Jesus before He was born in the flesh was a Spirit also WITH The Father, and was NEVER created, but was ETERNAL with The Father. This revelation from God's Word is a long... ways from men's philosophy of Humanism.
The Human state refers to the FLESH, not one's spirit.
The reason why Jesus' Name "Immanuel" means 'God with us' is because Jesus' ETERNAL Spirit was born in the flesh through woman like us. His Spirit was NOT born, only His flesh body was!
And while He was in the flesh, He chose to go through all the sufferings of the flesh that those born in the flesh do, except He had no sin. This did NOT make Jesus' Spirit into a 'human', Jesus simply took on the imperfections of the flesh which is what being a human is about.
So when one actually begins to understand this, that The Spirit of GOD Himself came in the flesh to suffer human frailty, it means Jesus did much more than just die on the cross. He temporarily suspended His Godship in order to suffer for us in many ways that most of us will never suffer. And Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:8, the main purpose for Jesus Christ being born in the flesh to die on the cross was in order to defeat death and the devil for us, His being the one Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Yes. Nowhere in scripture does begotten denote create, (in the normally accepted sense as 'out of nothing'.) Personally, I would accept made, (but prefer the word John used constantly... begotten... but from material that came forth from the Father Himself, making the Son equally God in every sense of the word, except of course in the normal relational sense of rank... just as human children submit to the authority and seniority of their parents. And of course all before anything was created.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Your logic influenced by Humanism does not work.
Isaiah 9:6 declaring The Son as "The mighty God, The everlasting Father" denies any ideas of separation between The Father and The Son prior to Christ being born in the flesh. So also does Matthew 1:23 deny any separation between The Spirit of The Father and The Son when defining Christ's Name "Emmanuel" from Isaiah, which means "God with us". And even in Revelation 1:8 when Jesus claimed to be The Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. And at the end of John 8 Jesus said He was The "I AM", one of The Father's sacred names. And in John 14:9 when Jesus told Philip that those who had seen Jesus had seen The Father.
John 4:24 says God is a Spirit. Same with Lord Jesus prior to His being born through woman's womb. Jews appear to have the biggest problem understanding this, and I think it is because their thinking dwells too much on a 'flesh' existence, even the false idea that Genesis 2:7 means one's soul is part of the flesh body, when it is not, but is of spirit, and is attached to one's spirit body, and leaves with one's spirit at death of the flesh body.
The Bible used by Jesus and the Apostles was mostly the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.). From What Bible Did Jesus Use?:
Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was their promised Messiah, it follows that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time!
Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek.
As has been pointed out in another thread recently (Jesus' God) the Septuagint renders Isaiah 9:6 differently. From Brenton's English Septuagint:
Isaiah 9:6 (BES):
(6) For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
The "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come" was a later addition, so it should not be relied upon.
First of all there is no evidence in scripture of a pre-existing Jesus Christ, none. Therefore you have build up a false argument already as many others do, in different ways, to desire it to be so for your man-made doctrine of the false nature of God and his Son.
Second in John 17:5 and John 8:38 and other places that speak to God being with, in or near, or next to, in sight of God, (alongside would be a bit much in translation of the preposition 'para' here) it does not MEAN the pre-existence of the Son. Where do you get this from? No, it means that God is with, in proximity, or in Jesus, period. They in intimacy, a close spiritual condition of two different spirits. (John 17:21-23) As God is in, in proximity of the Son and the Son in him they are one in purpose etc. As a genuine believer, both the spirit of God and the Son are in me. We are of different individual spirits locked in, in view of each other. It does not indicate my pre-existence as well. That would be silly.
You see God had the the Son and me and other believers in/by his mind, slated for GLORIFICATION/IMMORTALITY, before the foundation of the world. I never pre-existed, as you can read further down in Joh 17 about believers being in God's mind, Jesus spoke about all believers before they were born.
And you completely ignored the context in John 8 and in 17. Why? Don't you think you would get the clearer understanding of these verses if you read the local and wider context of each. You know they mean different things and they are not the same subject at all. Your mission though is not to understand scripture in context, it's to pullout a few words in each, and you have translated them poorly, and say they mean the pre-existence of Jesus.
You are running blind here without your lights off, and have found what you think is a code or secret hook to say there is proof Jesus pre-existed just by looking at some common Greek phrase or expression of Jesus in some scripture.....quite ridiculous I might say.
And then in John 8:58, I will not cover because I really do not understand what you are attempting to say or show. Maybe you found a novel hidden hook in this verse.
And the rest of the typical dribble list that trails does not impress at all.
Context is King mate.....you might want to heed these words next time
I should ignore this typical list of non-factual evidence especially when I read again, and again say for the explanation of John 8:58 - by mixing an erroneous Hebrew translated expression out of Exodus and apply it into the Greek language of a NT verse, and again without knowing or deliberately ignoring the context of each verse. When will this insanity and absurdity ever stop....
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Dear Elie,
There does not exist in all of Scripture a single verse that says: "pre-human life" of Jesus,
I will buy you dinner if you can find one!!!
VictoryinJesus
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You wrote ‘and only 12 chosen apostles that were with him until the death of Judas, which I believe Paul had replaced him, though many suggest the other guy replaced him when Peter had drew lots.’
I’ve never considered this. Thank you. That is something to think about. I wouldn’t make a doctrine out of it but you make a great point. What stands out to me is it’s not by casting lots but God who chooses. I’ve always wondered why they did that thing of chance. To me it promotes signs by Chance. Like who chooses the shortest straw. or like the game we played at Christmas where you had to roll doubles with the dice. I’ve never considered Paul as the other guy; not by casting lots but by Jesus Christ meeting Saul on the road…saying “I will send you…”
Peter had drew lots.Matthew 16:15-17 He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Of course, y'all do realise what we are discussing here right, the nature of God and His Son? And we are treating it like it's a science project over the composition of a common fruit. The truth9999[ is, we all need to be alot less adamant about what we think, and a lot more humble, after all, the far more likely scenario is that every one of us is wrong.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The TRUTH is not wrong = Elohi,/Plural = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"
Elohim wrote a Children's Book so that man can be SAVED.
HE wrote a 'connect the dots' Book = my favorite
HE wrote a 'coloring Book' = also my favorite
HE wrote a 'simple numbers Book' that also is part of the 'connect the dots' = 3 favorites of mine
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.
Are we walking in obedience to His Command or is this just a suggestion???
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
the FATHER sent His SON
who is the Holy One from Above
YES, His Spirit the Dove, RESTED upon His LOVE
by this we know ALL THREE are ONE from Above
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