Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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David in NJ

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No! This contradicts your previous statement of understanding legal contracts where explicit text supersedes ambiguous text.

There is ambiguous text, yes but there is also explicit text. It’s just that the explicit text proves God is one, not 3 in 1 and it not Jesus.
  1. Ex 3:15. God’s eternal name to be remembered for all generations is YHWH (not Jesus).
  2. Deut 6:4. God is YHWH, the one and only God.
  3. Joel 2:27. I am YHWH, your God, and there is no one else.
  4. John 17:1-3. Jesus said his father is the only true God (meaning Jesus nor the HS are true God’s).
  5. Every epistle states only ‘God the Father.’
  6. 1 COR 8:6. ‘There is one God, the Father.’
Why do you persist in speaking falsehood???

The Elohim of Genesis/Gospel/Revelation never taught this to you!!!

The only TRUE God and Jesus Christ who HE sent says THEY are THREE, and the THREE are ECHAD/ONE

Genesis 1:26 - And Elohim said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: = 3
 

A Freeman

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No! This contradicts your previous statement of understanding legal contracts where explicit text supersedes ambiguous text.

There is ambiguous text, yes but there is also explicit text. It’s just that the explicit text proves God is one, not 3 in 1 and it not Jesus.
  1. Ex 3:15. God’s eternal name to be remembered for all generations is YHWH (not Jesus).
  2. Deut 6:4. God is YHWH, the one and only God.
  3. Joel 2:27. I am YHWH, your God, and there is no one else.
  4. John 17:1-3. Jesus said his father is the only true God (meaning Jesus nor the HS are true God’s).
  5. Every epistle states only ‘God the Father.’
  6. 1 COR 8:6. ‘There is one God, the Father.’
And there is not a single reference in all of Scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

It seems interesting, at least to me, that "trinitarians" either don't know, or are being intentionally deceitful, about who and what they worship.

The "trinity" as it is defined, is three allegedly EQUAL persons, that allegedly make up one person, even though they're allegedly three persons.

If any should claim otherwise then, by default, they are admitting that there is no "trinity".

Straight out of the mouth of Jesus, Christ stated the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater than does NOT mean "equal to" in any context. And God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God, by definition.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.

It is disgusting beyond words that people today profess to "believe in Jesus" and yet have the audacity to call both God and The One Whom God Anointed and Sent (Christ) liars, by pretending there is a "trinity", when both God and Christ have unambiguously told us that is NOT true.
 

A Freeman

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Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in Our image, and teach him to be like Us: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is God speaking to in this verse? Himself or to the angels (Sons of God), ALL of whom, like God, are SPIRITUAL-BEINGS?

God doesn't talk to Himself, nor does He pretend to be His own Son, nor to be His own Father, nor does God pray to Himself, nor does God give Himself gifts, nor does God say He could do nothing of His own accord, nor does He keep things from Himself, nor does He say He doesn't know everything, nor can God become a man, nor can God become the Son of Man, nor can God EVER be subjected to human limitations, nor can our everlasting God die.

How Satan so easily dupes people into believing all of this total nonsense is a constant source of amazement.
 
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Wrangler

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The "trinity" as it is defined, is three allegedly EQUAL persons, that allegedly make up one person, even though they're allegedly three persons.
I don’t know if it was you or someone else in the other thread. A list of words that need to be redefined to make sense of Trinity: need to add being and Begotten.

Begotten means created. They come up with the nonsensical ‘eternally begotten.’ And if you look up Being, it is synonymous with person. Trinitarians assert the contradiction that God is a (meaning one) <3 person> person.
 
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Johann

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No! This contradicts your previous statement of understanding legal contracts where explicit text supersedes ambiguous text.

There is ambiguous text, yes but there is also explicit text. It’s just that the explicit text proves God is one, not 3 in 1 and it not Jesus.
  1. Ex 3:15. God’s eternal name to be remembered for all generations is YHWH (not Jesus).
  2. Deut 6:4. God is YHWH, the one and only God.
  3. Joel 2:27. I am YHWH, your God, and there is no one else.
  4. John 17:1-3. Jesus said his father is the only true God (meaning Jesus nor the HS are true God’s).
  5. Every epistle states only ‘God the Father.’
  6. 1 COR 8:6. ‘There is one God, the Father.’
Nice try @Wrangler

Romans 9:5
“Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”
Paul declares that Christ, according to the flesh, came from Israel, and He is "over all, God blessed forever." This is a direct statement of the divinity of Jesus.

2. Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Paul refers to Jesus as "the Lord," a title that in the New Testament is used for God. This connects the concept of salvation directly with Jesus' divine identity.

3. Romans 14:9-10
“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”
Paul presents Jesus as the Judge, a role traditionally ascribed to God in the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g., Psalm 9:7-8).

4. 1 Corinthians 8:6
“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Paul affirms both the Father and the Son as divine, with Jesus being the “one Lord” through whom all things were created. This reflects Jesus’ active role in creation, which is a divine attribute.

5. 1 Corinthians 12:3
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”
To declare Jesus as "Lord" is to affirm His divine status, a title that is explicitly applied to God.

6. 2 Corinthians 4:4
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
Paul identifies Christ as the “image of God,” a direct claim to His divine nature (cf. Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:3).

7. 2 Corinthians 5:19
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
This passage explicitly states that “God was in Christ,” showing the union of God and Jesus in the work of reconciliation.

8. Philippians 2:6-11
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Paul affirms that Jesus existed in the “form of God,” and despite His humility, He is exalted by God to a position where every knee will bow to Him, a clear allusion to His divine status.

9. Colossians 1:15-17
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Jesus is identified as the image of God, and He is the Creator of all things, which directly affirms His divine nature. His eternal preexistence and sustaining power are attributes of God alone.

10. Colossians 2:9
“For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
Paul makes an explicit statement that all the fullness of God resides in Christ, underscoring His complete divinity.

11. 1 Timothy 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
This is a clear reference to the divinity of Jesus, stating that "God was manifest in the flesh," which speaks directly to His incarnation.

12. Titus 2:13
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Paul refers to Jesus as "the great God and our Savior," directly affirming His divinity and messianic role.

13. Hebrews 1:8 (While not a Pauline epistle, it is often attributed to Paul in tradition)
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
This verse, quoting from Psalm 45, is a direct address to the Son as God, affirming the deity of Christ.

J.
 

Wrangler

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Straight out of the mouth of Jesus, Christ stated the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater than does NOT mean "equal to" in any context.
Proves the trinity is anti-Scriptural, heretical to what Scripture explicitly teaches.
 

Wrangler

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The One Whom God Anointed and Sent (Christ) liars, by pretending there is a "trinity", when both God and Christ have unambiguously told us that is NOT true.
Let’s explore the fallacy of equality.
  1. Fathers are not equal to their sons, which explains how Jesus was getting an inheritance AND was given all authority by God. The son comes from the father. Fathers do not come from the sons.
  2. Jesus has a human nature. Even within trinityland, this is unequal to the other 2 persons who do not have a dual nature.
  3. The HS does not have a name an NO AUTHORITY (all given to Jesus). Not much of a God.
 
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A Freeman

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I don’t know if it was you or someone else in the other thread. A list of words that need to be redefined to make sense of Trinity: need to add being and Begotten.

Begotten means created. They come up with the nonsensical ‘eternally begotten.’ And if you look up Being, it is synonymous with person. Trinitarians assert the contradiction that God is a (meaning one) <3 person> person.
It was me, in the other thread entitled "The trinity can now be discussed".

And agreed, "begotten" (created) should be among the list, although it did list "firstbegotten", i.e. the first-created.


What makes Christ unique among the angels is that Christ was created by God FIRST. After that, everyone and everything else was created by Father through Christ, as Father taught Christ everything.

It actually diminishes the Christ's Mission on Earth to claim that Jesus is/was God. The reason for doing that (and for the "trinity" in general) is to use that as an excuse for continued disobedience to God allegedly because "only God could do what Jesus did", which is an obvious lie.
 

Wrangler

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And there is not a single reference in all of Scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

It seems interesting, at least to me, that "trinitarians" either don't know, or are being intentionally deceitful, about who and what they worship.
Indeed. The absence of proof text does not shake the confidence in their IDOL. In 66 books the concept of the trinity is not mentioned once.

This explains why they shy away from my question about why it is important to believe from a Scriptural context.

It follows that since the trinity is absent, so to will a statement of believing it being important. Against this back drop, they hold it as THE CENTRAL MESSAGE of Scripture. A fascinating case study in IDOLATRY. Nothing else compares.
 
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Grailhunter

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And there is not a single reference in all of Scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

It seems interesting, at least to me, that "trinitarians" either don't know, or are being intentionally deceitful, about who and what they worship.

The "trinity" as it is defined, is three allegedly EQUAL persons, that allegedly make up one person, even though they're allegedly three persons.

If any should claim otherwise then, by default, they are admitting that there is no "trinity".

Straight out of the mouth of Jesus, Christ stated the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater than does NOT mean "equal to" in any context. And God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God, by definition.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.

It is disgusting beyond words that people today profess to "believe in Jesus" and yet have the audacity to call both God and The One Whom God Anointed and Sent (Christ) liars, by pretending there is a "trinity", when both God and Christ have unambiguously told us that is NOT true.

Spot on!
There are things people just want to believe regardless of all reality. And there is the mystical aspect that interests them. Three Gods in one just sound mystical and mysterious.

The there are people that don’t think that we should understand what God is saying. So if it absolutely makes no sense….that is the qualifying factor that makes it true and of God.

It does not matter what the scriptures say….I have gave this site over a hundred scriptures to prove the one God formula is wrong.

Even Christ explains the oneness concept and it is not three Gods in one….And even Christ cannot get through to them….hilarious!!! Christ is talking to God the Father about this and they still do not get it.
 

David in NJ

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And there is not a single reference in all of Scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

It seems interesting, at least to me, that "trinitarians" either don't know, or are being intentionally deceitful, about who and what they worship.

The "trinity" as it is defined, is three allegedly EQUAL persons, that allegedly make up one person, even though they're allegedly three persons.

If any should claim otherwise then, by default, they are admitting that there is no "trinity".

Straight out of the mouth of Jesus, Christ stated the following:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater than does NOT mean "equal to" in any context. And God cannot have a God, or He wouldn't be God, by definition.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.

It is disgusting beyond words that people today profess to "believe in Jesus" and yet have the audacity to call both God and The One Whom God Anointed and Sent (Christ) liars, by pretending there is a "trinity", when both God and Christ have unambiguously told us that is NOT true.
And there is not a single reference in all of Scripture that says "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".
YES there is and you will find it in Genesis.
 

David in NJ

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Spot on!
There are things people just want to believe regardless of all reality. And there is the mystical aspect that interests them. Three Gods in one just sound mystical and mysterious.

The there are people that don’t think that we should understand what God is saying. So if it absolutely makes no sense….that is the qualifying factor that makes it true and of God.

It does not matter what the scriptures say….I have gave this site over a hundred scriptures to prove the one God formula is wrong.

Even Christ explains the oneness concept and it is not three Gods in one….And even Christ cannot get through to them….hilarious!!! Christ is talking to God the Father about this and they still do not get it.
Three Gods in one
Genesis chapter 1 states this as does the allegorical Truth given to us further on in Genesis as also does the Gospel

SHALOM
 

Ronald Nolette

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We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?
Well I am joining this debate very late, but there is no logical inconsistency.

One has to remember that the term "god" not only refers to a person or deity, but also refers to a class of being.


even the Hebrew language recognized this. Terms such as Elohim is the plural for Elowah
Adonai is the plural for Adon
And the Shma is a unique statement

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Adonai(plural) our Elohim(plural) is one (compound) Adonai(plural).

In the imperfect way a finite mind can try define infinte, it means that there is one God (class of being as opposed to many gods (as differing beings) and this one essence or class of being is expressed in three persons, Father, Son and Spirit.
 
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David in NJ

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Well I am joining this debate very late, but there is no logical inconsistency.

One has to remember that the term "god" not only refers to a person or deity, but also refers to a class of being.


even the Hebrew language recognized this. Terms such as Elohim is the plural for Elowah
Adonai is the plural for Adon
And the Shma is a unique statement

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Adonai(plural) our Elohim(plural) is one (compound) Adonai(plural).

In the imperfect way a finite mind can try define infinte, it means that there is one God (class of being as opposed to many gods (as differing beings) and this one essence or class of being is expressed in three persons, Father, Son and Spirit.
Beautiful ARTWORK there my Brother
 
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David in NJ

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It was me, in the other thread entitled "The trinity can now be discussed".

And agreed, "begotten" (created) should be among the list, although it did list "firstbegotten", i.e. the first-created.


What makes Christ unique among the angels is that Christ was created by God FIRST. After that, everyone and everything else was created by Father through Christ, as Father taught Christ everything.

It actually diminishes the Christ's Mission on Earth to claim that Jesus is/was God. The reason for doing that (and for the "trinity" in general) is to use that as an excuse for continued disobedience to God allegedly because "only God could do what Jesus did", which is an obvious lie.
It actually diminishes the Christ's Mission on Earth to claim that Jesus is/was God. The reason for doing that (and for the "trinity" in general) is to use that as an excuse for continued disobedience to God allegedly because "only God could do what Jesus did", which is an obvious lie.
JESUS declared Himself equal with His FATHER in SPIRIT and for HIM to deny this, it would make HIM a liar just like those monotheists who had HIM crucified.

The WORD that was Elohim emptied Himself of the GLORY HE had with the FATHER before the world ever was created and HE became flesh
 

A Freeman

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And it diminishes by half is sacrifice, making it not cover the wages of sin.
It's even worse than that.

It not only makes a mockery of Christ's sacrifice, it also paints a blasphemous picture of Father as a tyrant God Who allegedly gave us a set of rules that supposedly no one could keep, so that He could routinely punish us before sending Himself to role play as His own Son, and show us how He could do what we allegedly could not.

Christ took on the flesh of Jesus (became a human+Being, like the rest of us), to show us that each of us could do what He did, WITH enough Faith (Matt. 19:26; Matt. 21:21). And of course, it was a REAL sacrifice, made for everyone's benefit. And at the same time, serving as our example, to physically show us that there is life after the death of the human body.
 

Grailhunter

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Genesis chapter 1 states this as does the allegorical Truth given to us further on in Genesis as also does the Gospel

SHALOM

No it does not. Us does not = Yeshua and Holy Spirit.
Yeshua by name is not defined in the Old Testament.
Yeshua by name is not descibed as doing anything.
Yeshua and Yahweh do not speak to each other in the Old Testament.
So Yahweh does not tell Yeshua to do anything in Old Testament.
The Old Testament talks about Yahweh's holy spirit but that is not "The Holy Spirit"
The confusion with the Holy Spirit is caused by the fact that they never reveiled the name of the Holy Spirit.....But in most theologies the Holy Spirit is not just a Spirit but the third person in the Trinity.
And again I believe in the Trinity......Just three in unity....Tri-unity.....not triune.
 

David in NJ

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No it does not. Us does not = Yeshua and Holy Spirit.
Yeshua by name is not defined in the Old Testament.
Yeshua by name is not descibed as doing anything.
Yeshua and Yahweh do not speak to each other in the Old Testament.
So Yahweh does not tell Yeshua to do anything in Old Testament.
The Old Testament talks about Yahweh's holy spirit but that is not "The Holy Spirit"
The confusion with the Holy Spirit is caused by the fact that they never reveiled the name of the Holy Spirit.....But in most theologies the Holy Spirit is not just a Spirit but the third person in the Trinity.
And again I believe in the Trinity......Just three in unity....Tri-unity.....not triune.
the name 'Yeshua/Salvation is in the OT scriptures, in many places as it takes on different spellings with the SAME meaning.

As a matter of fact here is the proclamation in Exodus 15:2

The LORD is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation.
He is my God, and I will praise Him, my father’s God, and I will exalt Him.

My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, And My arms will judge the peoples;
The coastlands will wait upon Me, And on My arm they will trust. - Isaiah 51:5

Salvation is far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes. - Psalm 119:155

The Lord is my light and my salvation; - Psalm 27:1

I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ - Isaiah 49:6

Pay special ATTENTION to the Truth of Salvation for it is a PERSON

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
 

Magdala

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I said the trinity is not in the Bible.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]" (Gen. 1:26)

The Holy Trinity, or, in other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is in Scripture: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19)

"You believe that God is one. You do well." (Jas. 2:19)

Everything is threefold in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Forms, effects, and powers. Their Trinity: their threefold and single nature [N:43]. One Triune God.

The Immense One loves Himself, not with a selfish love, but with an active, most powerful-indeed, infinite-love, and by this act alone, which is most perfect, He begets His Word, in all respects equal to Him, the Father, except in the difference of His Person. For if God is Triune—that is, an admirable unity, so to speak—with three faces, in order to make the explanation clear to the uninstructed, it is also a truth of faith that the individual faces are quite different—that is, in theological terms there is one single God and there are Three Persons, equal in all respects as regards Divinity, Eternity, Immensity, and Omnipotence, but not confused in relation to one another, but, rather, quite distinct, and One is not the Other, and yet there are not three gods, but a single God, who in and of Himself has given being to the individual Divine Persons in generating the Son and, by that very act, originating the procession of the Holy Spirit. [N:45-50]
 
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