CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In my view, they are not actually "fathers", they are people like us, attempting to make sense of Jesus and the apostolic witness. But I agree, they are not authoritative.
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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The pattern of the Three in heaven bears witness to that triune nature of God.
There is always someone who is the disputer of these things. But I listen to the scriptures.
1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
The Certainty of God’s Witness
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.7 For there are three that bear witness [b]in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of [c]God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has [d]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [e]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Father Son, Holy Spirit in heaven are one.
7 For there are three that bear witness [b]in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
On earth the Holy Spirit bore witness to Christ, by spiritual gifts given to believers and by the fruits of the Holy Spirit in believers lives, by the Father in heaven and other ways too.
The water and the blood signifies the death of the Christ, because Christ died for us we can have eternal life with God in heaven and not perish. These are the things that are seen in the world, changed lives. He died, went to hell (sheol) and was resurrected from the dead.
A false teaching went around and still does, that Christ did not die on the cross. Christ's death is central to the gospel message of eternal life for believers in Him. IT was for that reason He came.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
John 19
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
7 For there are three that bear witness [b]in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
On earth the Holy Spirit bore witness to Christ, by spiritual gifts given to believers and by the fruits of the Holy Spirit in believers lives, by the Father in heaven and other ways too.
The water and the blood signifies the death of the Christ, because Christ died for us we can have eternal life with God in heaven and not perish. These are the things that are seen in the world, changed lives. He died, went to hell (sheol) and was resurrected from the dead.
A false teaching went around and still does, that Christ did not die on the cross. Christ's death is central to the gospel message of eternal life for believers in Him. IT was for that reason He came.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
John 19
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I'm with you on this. I was just responding to the notion that "Elohim," being plural, supports the Trinity. It doesn't.
Behold
Well-Known Member
"Let.......>US...........make man........in OUR image".
A.) "us and our" = 2
That is the Father and the "Word who was God"...John 1
Add the Holy Spirit to those 2.
3<> ONE
= Triune God.
I think 1 John 5 supports Trinity much more definitively, as all Three are Named in heaven.
Why is "OUR" limited to two? Why not three, or five, or twelve, or more?
Yes. More than one GOD. That is the meaning of Elohim. And the Torah is chock full of such references, because at the time that is what the ancient Israelites thought.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Because the Host of Heaven, did not participate in the original act of Creation.
That is why its "US"....
"US" Is.......God the Father, and the Jesus incarnate as the Word.
Here is another way you can see it... READER.
God created Adam out of Dirt.
Now, open your bible to the Miracle that Jesus performed by spitting on a ball of dirt and CREATING EYES in sockets that had none.
See that?
Only GOD can do that with Adam and only the GOD MAN can do that for someone using DIRT and SPIT..... regarding somone who has no eyes and needs GOD to make him a set.
See.. the NT continually proves that Jesus is the "God man".. but Trinity Haters, are blind to this truth, because they choose to be so.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Yes, all three are named in heaven. And all three are one. And all three testify.
By the word of three witnesses any matter is established.
[
Ecclesiastes 4 more than one together is best, a little abstract, but I like the idea.
The Value of a Friend
9 Two are better than one,Because they have a good reward for their labor.
10 For if they fall, one will lift up his companion.
But woe to him who is alone when he falls,
For he has no one to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm;
But how can one be warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him.
And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 19:15 NIV
... A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[
John the apostle would have known and was a good witness, who taught the Triune nature of God.
And all scripture is God breathed
2 Timothy 3
The Man of God and the Word of God
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The rationalization to read into Scripture while simultaneously ignoring what Scripture explicitly teaches is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G. Jesus taught us how to worship God, to pray only to him, our Father, period.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I thought you were going to expand on the part in red.
Hmmm. There still seems to be a disconnect. Perhaps your thesis statement needs to be flushed out. From what I gather, it's a bit of a stream of consciousness.
What are you trying to say? From my understanding of the Old Covenant, justification via sacrifice was on a per incident basis. Paul explains the New Covenant is better with Jesus being the justification for all time and all incidents, shifting the focus from our acts - our sacrifices - to his.
Perhaps Paul is NOT invoking the last verse you would (Lev 18:5) for the purposes you think he is invoking it. I truly do want to understand what you are saying here. The dots just don't seem to be quite connected.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Good Morning,
God is SMART and HE knows we are DUMB(our minds are darkened) so HE made it EASY = just count to 3
ELOHIM is PLURAL because HE is PLURAL = smart intelligent minds will never be able to fully understand this
BEGINNING of TRUTH - Count to 3 = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"
UPdate - Elohim created NUMBERS and HE uses NUMBERS to communicate to us what we cannot see = strictly for Children
Truth/Gospel is ONE - 1
Marriage is TWO - 2
Elohim is THREE / FATHER WORD SPIRIT - 3
Complete Earth is FOUR - 4
Ministry/Grace is FIVE - 5
Man is SIX - 6
Salvation is SEVEN - 7
New Beginnings is EIGHT - 8
Judgment is NINE - 9
Completion/Law/Tribulation is TEN - 10
Disorder/Tower of Babel is ELEVEN - 11
TEMPLE/Apostles/Body of Christ is TWELVE - 12
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Us - Our - Our = 3 Times spoken = this is how Elohim established TRUTH
Why is it limited to 3???
Because Elohim CLEARLY stated it in Genesis which is the Foundation for ALL Truth to Follow
Elohim Built upon this Truth in Genesis and Exodus , OT Prophets and Irrevocably Confirmed this in the Gospel, the Apostles and Revelation
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,
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