On the pre-existence of Jesus

[MonoBiblical]

We got 2 references to the preexistence of the Christ
One regarding Abraham, and one from Christ declaring a truth here saying "I AM"

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

He is declaring He is equal to God, saying in essence, "I AM GOD"

Before Abraham became overjoyed, he was. Greek doesn't always to change the verb to past tense, to communicate past tense action.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Colossians 1 gives a good description of the most obvious pre-existance of Christ as the Creator of all things, so then He is before all things, and in Him all things exist. And as Creator, then Christ is God who also maintains all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Look up created in the BLB under its Strong's entry. You will find the definition to make inhabitable.

 

[Scott Downey]

Look up created in the BLB under its Strong's entry. You will find the definition to make inhabitable.

Tools

Rev 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Same Greek word. This depends on the context. Which is obviously the creation that was created.

G2936 - ktizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2936 - κτίζω ktízō, ktid'-zo; probably akin to (through the idea of proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally):—create, Creator, make.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Scott Downey]

"He made" means created, the context is the creation in Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1

Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

G4160 - poieō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4160 - ποιέω poiéō, poy-eh'-o; apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, agree, appoint, avenge, band together, be, bear, bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, content, continue, deal, without...

www.blueletterbible.org

The KJV translates Strong's G4160 in the following manner: do (357x), make (113x), bring forth (14x), commit (9x), cause (9x), work (8x), shew (5x), bear (4x), keep (4x), fulfil (3x), deal (2x), perform (2x), not translated (3x), miscellaneous (43x), variations of 'do' (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to make
   1. with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
   2. to be the authors of, the cause
   3. to make ready, to prepare
   4. to produce, bear, shoot forth
   5. to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
   6. to make a thing out of something
   7. to (make i.e.) render one anything
      1. to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
      2. to (make i.e.) declare one anything
   8. to put one forth, to lead him out
   9. to make one do something
      1. cause one to
   10. to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2. to do
   1. to act rightly, do well
      1. to carry out, to execute
   2. to do a thing unto one
      1. to do to one
   3. with designation of time: to pass, spend
   4. to celebrate, keep
      1. to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
   5. to perform: to a promise

 

[APAK]

"He made" means created, the context is the creation in Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1

Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

G4160 - poieō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4160 - ποιέω poiéō, poy-eh'-o; apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, agree, appoint, avenge, band together, be, bear, bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, content, continue, deal, without...

www.blueletterbible.org

The KJV translates Strong's G4160 in the following manner: do (357x), make (113x), bring forth (14x), commit (9x), cause (9x), work (8x), shew (5x), bear (4x), keep (4x), fulfil (3x), deal (2x), perform (2x), not translated (3x), miscellaneous (43x), variations of 'do' (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to make
   1. with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
   2. to be the authors of, the cause
   3. to make ready, to prepare
   4. to produce, bear, shoot forth
   5. to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
   6. to make a thing out of something
   7. to (make i.e.) render one anything
      1. to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
      2. to (make i.e.) declare one anything
   8. to put one forth, to lead him out
   9. to make one do something
      1. cause one to
   10. to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2. to do
   1. to act rightly, do well
      1. to carry out, to execute
   2. to do a thing unto one
      1. to do to one
   3. with designation of time: to pass, spend
   4. to celebrate, keep
      1. to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
   5. to perform: to a promise

Scott, need to really discern and scrutinize the translations of scripture at times. And this is one area.

Heb 1:2: Jesus is appointed the heir of all things on earth and in heaven in the present and future ages of not only time, created by his Father. God owns all things and does not need to inherit anything. Jesus had to inherit these things proving that Jesus cannot be eternal as his Father, or equal with him.

Trinitarians think that Jesus was the one who made the original heavens and earth, so they translate ‘ages’ or ‘eons’ as ‘world’ or even ‘universe’ in this verse.

The Greek word translated ‘universe’ or ‘world’ is the plural of the Greek word aion, and actually means ‘ages.’ There are other Greek words that mean ‘world,’ such as kosmos and oikoumene.

Trinitarians use this verse to try to prove that Jesus Christ created the world as we know it, but the context of the verse shows that this cannot be the correct interpretation.

 

[A Freeman]

The following is offered for consideration...

God -- The King Ruler of the Universe -- exists outside of time and space, both of which He created.

His very first creation, according to Scripture (e.g. Col. 1:12-15; Rev. 3:14), was Christ (which is a title that means "The Anointed One"), His Eldest (Firstborn/First-created) Son. The firstborn son of the King is the Great Prince and heir to the throne.

It was at that moment that God became known to His Creation as "Father". And from that moment onward, everything that Father (God) created was with and through Christ (Heb. 1:1-6), to teach Christ everything (John 5:19-20).

The above isn't shared to offend anyone; it's only meant to point out what the Scriptures actually say about Christ, Who is referred to in the Old Covenant/Testament as "the angel of The Lord" (e.g. Exod. 3:1-3; Exod. 23:20-23), and repeatedly throughout the New Covenant/Testament as "the Son OF God".

Jesus (which is also a title, that means "YHWH Saves" or, in English, "The 'I AM' Saves"), was the firstborn son of the virgin body of Mary, descended from king David (Matt. 1:1-17). Jesus is referred to repeatedly throughout the Gospel accounts as "the Son of Man", something God could never be (Num. 23:19; John 4:24).

When Christ (the immortal Son of God) incarnated the mortal human Jesus (John 1:14), the two became the human+Being we refer to as Jesus+Christ. It was the body of Jesus that Father raised from the dead three days and three nights after Jesus was crucified (Matt. 12:39-40; Acts 4:10-12).

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 1, and the Son of Man born of the seed of David according to the Flesh, by Mary, but born of the Holy Spirit on God the Father's side and declared to be the Son of God.

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who [a]was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

So yeah, HE can be both the Son of Man and the Son of God. IT was needful for Christ to be born a man to be our Savior for us, and we know only God is our Savior, so He is God.

Christ Born of Mary​

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ is the Savior, God is the Savior, Christ is the Savior of all men, only God is the Savior, therefore Christ is God.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, My stronghold and my refuge; My Savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,

Isaiah 19:20
And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.


Isaiah 45:15
Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!

 

[Wrangler]

People who dont think Christ is God keep using verses that point to Him being a man while ignoring all the verses that point to Him being God

There is no verse that teaches he is God. There are verses that teach he is a man. Nuff said.

Because of this basic fact, you have to retreat from what Scripture actually teaches to invest in reading into or "pointing' in another direction.

 

[Wrangler]

Colossians 1 gives a good description of the most obvious pre-existance of Christ as the Creator of all things, so then He is before all things, and in Him all things exist. And as Creator, then Christ is God who also maintains all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created

The "By" in v16 is a bad translation. "Through" is more precise and better translatations render it "through." And this fits in context, not only with the rest of the chapter and book of Colossians but the many 1,000's verses that identify Jesus' God in the singular and the fact that Jesus admits he has a God, who is the Father, the true God (Creator).

The fact that v15 defines Jesus as the firstborn over all Creation proves he is not the Creator but the 1st thing the Creator created, (perhaps not metaphysically but mentally, planned, thought, logos.) See Jeremiah 1:5. Perhaps more precisely, the first thing the Creator recreated along with the eventual New Earth and New Heaven.

 

[Wrangler]

Christ is the Savior, God is the Savior, Christ is the Savior of all men, only God is the Savior, therefore Christ is God.

Ignoring agency. Acts 3:13 calls Jesus a servant of God. Therefore, not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Heb 1:2: Jesus is appointed the heir of all things on earth and in heaven in the present and future ages of not only time, created by his Father. God owns all things and does not need to inherit anything. Jesus had to inherit these things proving that Jesus cannot be eternal as his Father, or equal with him.

I look forward to @Scott Downey's thouhtful response.

 

[MonoBiblical]

"He made" means created, the context is the creation in Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1

Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

G4160 - poieō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4160 - ποιέω poiéō, poy-eh'-o; apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, agree, appoint, avenge, band together, be, bear, bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, content, continue, deal, without...

www.blueletterbible.org

The KJV translates Strong's G4160 in the following manner: do (357x), make (113x), bring forth (14x), commit (9x), cause (9x), work (8x), shew (5x), bear (4x), keep (4x), fulfil (3x), deal (2x), perform (2x), not translated (3x), miscellaneous (43x), variations of 'do' (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to make
   1. with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
   2. to be the authors of, the cause
   3. to make ready, to prepare
   4. to produce, bear, shoot forth
   5. to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self
   6. to make a thing out of something
   7. to (make i.e.) render one anything
      1. to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
      2. to (make i.e.) declare one anything
   8. to put one forth, to lead him out
   9. to make one do something
      1. cause one to
   10. to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2. to do
   1. to act rightly, do well
      1. to carry out, to execute
   2. to do a thing unto one
      1. to do to one
   3. with designation of time: to pass, spend
   4. to celebrate, keep
      1. to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
   5. to perform: to a promise

This is not the verb used, and it means to perform or do an action. It doesn't make objects, but makes actions.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Tools

Rev 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Same Greek word. This depends on the context. Which is obviously the creation that was created.

G2936 - ktizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2936 - κτίζω ktízō, ktid'-zo; probably akin to (through the idea of proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally):—create, Creator, make.

www.blueletterbible.org

And instead of using the better lexical definition, you go with Strongs. But it is nice to double check things.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2936:
κτίζω: 1 aorist ἔκτισα; perfect passive ἐκτισμαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκτίσθην; the Sept. chiefly for בָּרָא; properly, to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Diodorus, others); hence to found, a city, colony, state, etc. (Pindar and following; 1 Esdr. 4:53). In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc., Mark 13:19; 1 Corinthians 11:9; Colossians 1:16 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 272 (255)); Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:3; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 10:6 (Deuteronomy 4:32; Ecclesiastes 12:1; often in O. T. Apocrypha, as Judith 13:18; Wis. 2:23 Wis. 11:18 (Wisdom 11:17); 3Macc. 2:9; (Josephus, Antiquities 1, 1, 1; Philo de decal. § 20)); absolutely, ὁ κτίσας, the creator, Romans 1:25; (Matthew 19:4 Tr WH); equivalent to to form, shape, i. e. (for substance) completely to change, to transform (of the moral or new creation of the soul, as it is called), κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπί ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς, in intimate fellowship with Christ constituted to do good works (see ἐπί, B. 2 a. ζ.), Ephesians 2:10; τούς δύο εἰς ἕνα καινόν ἐνθρωπον, ibid. 15; τόν κτισθέντα κατά Θεόν, formed after God's likeness (see κατά, II. 3 c. δ.), Ephesians 4:24 (καρδίαν καθαράν κτίσον ἐν ἐμοί, Psalm 50:12 (Ps. 51:12))

Colossians 1:16

But there is also this. At him or in him rather by him should be the beginning of the verse. This is one of the few times I agree with the NIV.

[Col 1:18 KJV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Christ is the Savior, God is the Savior, Christ is the Savior of all men, only God is the Savior, therefore Christ is God.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, My stronghold and my refuge; My Savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,

Isaiah 19:20
And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.


Isaiah 45:15
Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!

This content is irrelevant. It doesn't say there are no other saviors. It says for those moments there are not any such saviors. Savior is also a loaded term in modern English. Humans in Greek can be saviors, but not so much so English. The English term implies preserved, as if someone can already be preserved from death in a catholic church. The Greek counterpart means rather to rescue, and firefighters, policemen, physicians are in that category.

 

[David in NJ]

Based on what you have learned or been taught, how would you respond to this question: Did the disciples recognize that Jesus had lived in heaven before being born as a human?

Later I'll post about what I've learned in my Bible study on that matter.

PS: Whichever you answer, please prove it with biblical passages if possible. Thank you.

YES, the Apostles knew the TRUTH of Who JESUS was BEFORE He came to earth

Gospel of John - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[David in NJ]

This content is irrelevant. It doesn't say there are no other saviors. It says for those moments there are not any such saviors. Savior is also a loaded term in modern English. Humans in Greek can be saviors, but not so much so English. The English term implies preserved, as if someone can already be preserved from death in a catholic church. The Greek counterpart means rather to rescue, and firefighters, policemen, physicians are in that category.

Unbelief will leave you blind

 

[David in NJ]

I understand you're seeking a rationale for believing that Jesus had no beginning. This belief is part of the teachings you've received, rooted in religions that adopted the doctrine of the Trinity from the fourth-century apostate church. Since that time, the concept of a triune God and a Christ equal to His Father was introduced to the world.

The TRUTH of the Plurality of God is in the first two words of the Holy Scriptures - Genesis 1:1

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)

 

[MonoBiblical]

The TRUTH of the Plurality of God is in the first two words of the Holy Scriptures - Genesis 1:1

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)

The falsehood of plurality is summed up in this Talmud reference about the LXX: Megillah 9a.12 and 9a.14.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Unbelief will leave you blind

Distrust not unbelief. What you believe means nothing to Jews?