St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Where does the Bible tell you to pray to the Holy Spirit?
Or even to pray to Jesus?
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Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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Or even to pray to Jesus?
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask anything in My name, I will do it
If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
"praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,"
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?
Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God.”
I worship the True and Living Elohim = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
With difficulty.
There isn't really any place in ancient history where we can point out a polytheistic society that just up and abandons polytheism in favor of monotheism. Instead, what tends to happen is that one God sort of absorbs the others until there's just One left. Often, the cults of the absorbed gods survive, and even keep their rituals, but they are just re-directed at the Head Honcho.
So, as an ancient Israelite perhaps you went from worshiping Baal-master-of-the-earth and Asherah-tree-goddess-of-love to worshiping just YHVH. But you probably worshiped YHVH in the same ways you worshiped before... by making offerings of crops or attending fertility festivals in the Spring.
And, well... the more you look at both the Bible, and the archaeology... the more it looks like that's exactly what happened. The Israelites didn't exactly STOP polytheism all at once. They built an idol at the base of Mt. Sinai, built a tabernacle that looks suspiciously like the one from the Midianites cult, and seemingly kept family idols well past the point that they actually entered the Promised Land.
Like... you worship a goddess of Love? But really that's just God's love, and you've personified it. You follow a god of War? But God is a man of war! You're merely venerating all that is glorious about the one God's wrath! You are a seeker after Wisdom? But here is true Wisdom that springs from the Godhead...
Well that's a conversation. The short answer is... the commandment doesn't say 'there aren't other gods.' It says 'don't worship them ahead of Me.'
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Where does the Bible tell you to pray to the Holy Spirit?
Or even to pray to Jesus?
Unless I missed something.
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Where does the Bible tell you to pray to the Holy Spirit?
Or even to pray to Jesus?
Sorry, none of that tells us to pray to the Holy Spirit, or to pray to Jesus?
Unless I missed something.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YEP - you missed more then something Brother
Be careful for the pharisees always wanted JESUS to answer their questions = THEIR way on THEIR terms!
Have you not noticed this on this Thread???
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Right.
It actually confirms there are other gods by commanding Israel not to worship them.
Is the Bible polytheistic? - Are there many gods, or only one?
We are all familiar with the first Commandment of the Ten given to Israel alone through Moses. “You shall have no other gods before [besides] me. - Exodus 20:3 NIV If there were other gods to have, that means there were other gods. Right? Therefore the Bible is making a polytheistic claim...
www.christianityboard.com
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Show me.
Not the whole thing again, but scriptures that tell us to pray TO the Holy Spirit and to pray TO Jesus.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Be careful for the pharisees always wanted JESUS to answer their questions = THEIR way on THEIR terms!
JESUS purposely allowed for a subsurface mystery to continue on certain things and one of those is 'God/Elohim'
It is only when we submit to every word spoken and allow the Holy Spirit to open the scriptures for us.
The scriptures NEVER change as TRUTH never changes - "Thy word is Truth"
Why did JESUS say this about the Holy Spirit: "whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit shall NEVER be forgiven"
If we are not to pray to JESUS then why did HE say "ask(prayer) in My name"?
Why does the FATHER say no one comes to HIM except thru JESUS?
Why not just go straight to the FATHER???
Why does JESUS intercede on our behalf to the FATHER if we are only to pray to the FATHER???
I'm not aware of this, David. I am aware of the converse -- i.e., JESUS saying "no one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). What do you mean here?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
It is another way, of many, whereby JESUS is equating Himself as the SAME Elohim from Genesis - "I and My Father are ONE"
As you may know, I am a fellow Trinitarian. But the Torah's use of "Elohim" never impressed me as support for Christ's divinity -- mainly because the ancient Israelites thought there were multiple gods. (I started a thread on this a few months ago.)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i AGREE with you on the Bible denoting their other gods/elohim.
Here is the CLINCHER for us who want to know Truth:
a.) The Scriptures NEVER shy away from using a Plural word for God = Elohim
b.) The TRUTH Begins with PLURALITY for Elohim = Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness
c.) This TRUTH continues to be expanded upon by the use of a Allegory = Abraham Isaac Jacob
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You failed again.
And what is this accusatory garbage quoted above?
One more abusive post and it will be IGNORE for you.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Saying be careful by pointing out the error that is rampant here is NOT accusatory.
CHILL Brother
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Is this what set you off???
Why did JESUS say this about the Holy Spirit: "whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit shall NEVER be forgiven"?
i said this NOT against you or even toward you but was demonstrating how the HOLY SPIRIT is as much God as the FATHER and the SON,
per the Topic/Thread
NEVER accusatory = you read it wrong
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The ones the Israelites were worshiping before Moses (but also after) - Hathor, Molech, Dagon, Baal, Asherah, etc.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
This is important = the other elohim had names!!!
The True Living Elohim has a very specific Name that no other elohim has!!!
And Elohim(Plural) said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Yahweh Elohe(Plural) of your fathers,
Elohe of Abraham,
Elohe of Isaac,
Elohe of Jacob,
has sent me to you.
This is My Name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
SEE
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Christ explained the oneness concept but I guess a lot of Christens just think He was kidding….
The True concept of “oneness” is really not a matter of arithmetic. In modern times we are all about numbers, but a modern grade schooler would know more about numbers than most of the people of antiquity. The concept of one could have a symbology in this time period, not just the literal one, but also the concept of “unity.” The word “one” in regard to relationships can also mean solidarity. Again, in relation to the Trinity it is the unity and the solidarity, in mind, in heart, and in spirit between Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father gives us in Genesis 2:24 an idea of how the concept of two people being one can be applied; “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” Yeshua reiterates this concept in Mathew 19:5 & 6 and Mark 10:8, specifically saying, “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” Certainly everyone understands that husbands and wives do not merge to be one physical human, nor do they lose their character. They certainly join physically but they are not absorbed into one person, even though the condition of solidarity may exist between them. So in that case the word one is not denoting “the number one” or the singularity of the two persons in the marriage.
Beyond what is listed in the examples above, in the New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of this concept of one. Speaking to God the Father (He was not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one... John 17:19-24 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I think we might be talking past each other. Like, this seems generically true. No disagreement.
But what does it have to do with Israel's transition from polytheism to monotheism, or the quoted bit of Deuteronomy that I was talking about?
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