And plenty here who are in denial re the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ-thanks for the link @RedFan.
J.
God begets God?
- Thread starter Matthias
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J.
Ok @RedFan and @Johann for being brave and courageous proponents of your different type Jesus Christ not found in scripture as my savior.
I expect you to both explain your view in some detail as to why 1 Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1b make your case. Good luck...you will need it and there is not enough of it I'm afraid.
So you now have succumbed to finding some uncertain peculiar crumbs of so-called proof for your theory of the deity in Christ in a loser like Wallace. When the preponderance of evidence, over 99% found in scripture clearly shows Christ as the Son of God and not a, or the God, the creator Father, although as a god.
For starters, Wallace’s argument is inconsistent. He excludes 2 Thessalonians 1:12 from Sharp’s Rule application because it contains the proper name “Jesus Christ” attached to the title “Lord,” yet he applies the rule to Titus 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:1, which have similar constructions with different titles (“Savior” and “God,” respectively). How hypocritical and dead wrong of him.
First as the shaky backdrop it is...
Scholars debate the exact translation of this verse, and the two sides of that debate are seen in the various translations.
Some scholars believe that “glory” is used in an adjectival sense, and that the verse should be translated as above in the NIV. Versions that follow suit are the KJV and the Amplified Version. Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible, NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The NASB is a typical example. It reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” The difference between the translations is immediately apparent.
And further, in Titus 2:13, the translation is more accurate to say 'our god and savior' both lower cased. Christ is a 'god' and also 'our savior' conditional however on his Father, who is the God the true Savior. And Wallace knows this and yet continues in the lie to deceive as he has done to you.
The NEV translation:
(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
(Tit 2:12) It trains us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and Godly lives in this present age,
(Tit 2:13) as we look for the blessed hope: The manifesting of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
(Tit 2:14) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:13-14 is clearly saying that the great God, who is our Father, who is the source, along with his Son Jesus Christ, who gave himself,....etc.
How can one mistake this thought is beyond me...this is the blessed hope.
The phrase “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” does not imply that Jesus is God, but rather that Jesus is a separate being, exalted by God and given authority over creation.
John 1:1-5, Hebrews 1:3 for example clearly distinguish between God the Father and Jesus Christ. Why ignore it here is beyond me! On eis the true one God and the other the Son a god and proxy of the Father.
And the phrase “glory of God” in Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus as the manifestation or representation of God’s glory, rather than as God Himself.
From a biblical Unitarian source...
"The Granville Sharp rule has been successfully challenged. The point is that when Scripture refers to “our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” it can mean two beings—both the “Great God,” and the “Savior,” Jesus Christ. The highly regarded Trinitarian Henry Alford gives a number of reasons as to why the grammar of the Greek does not force the interpretation of the passage to make Christ God..."
Now for 2 Peter 1:1b..
Some Trinitarians as you, also try to force this verse using the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek grammar. This is not a valid proof of the Trinity at all...desperate folks will still say otherwise...regrettable..
This verse is generally translated one of two ways: “Our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Revised Version, RSV, NIV, etc.) and “God and our Savior Jesus Christ (KJV). Although it is possible that the word “God” (Greek = theos) is here being used in its lesser sense, i.e., of a man with divine authority (see Hebrews 1:8), it is more likely that it is referring to the true God as distinct from Jesus Christ. This is certainly the way the context is leading, because the very next verse speaks of them separately....READ 1 Peter 1:2
(2Pe 1:1)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those that have obtained the same precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God, and the Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:2) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord. (NEV)
They are TWO separate personalities, one God the Father Almighty and the other his Son, consistent throughout scripture.
So, continue to follow this blind man as you wish and continue to go deeper into this deadly spiritual quicksand you are both are in. You have been warned.
---
Now I would like your both to respond by not just regurgitating or copying and pasting other people's work, but by explaining to me why you think this man Wallace is correct, that Jesus must be your Father and God, based on these two distant simple to understand, remote outlier verses in the NT ...with technical specifics if you dare...thx
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
The trinitarians are divided on the question. Some of them will tell you their deity is a single self, some of them will tell you that their deity is three selves, and some of them will tell you that they don’t know.
It’s an interesting exercise.
The Messiah’s God, on the other hand, is a single self.
No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of The Father, He has made Him known.
To me, The Son Jesus proceeded out of the bosom of The Father and was made flesh as Emanual (God with us).
To me, The Son Jesus proceeded out of the bosom of The Father and was made flesh as Emanual (God with us).
God is only one person, the Father. Moses saw God’s back, not his face.
I agree but what does being “in the bosom of the Father mean?
Was Jesus inside of his God and Father?
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I believe so, as his seed came out of his mouth and impregnated Mary egg.
That’s just my way of understanding.
Word as seed. That’s excellent.
The same seed that the one God used in the Genesis creation, he used in the new creation. The new creation begins in the womb of the virgin.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
No idea..who can understand the workings of God.
Jesus grew in Mary’s womb, he eventually became the Messiah, he was anointed to spread the good news of Gods Kingdom.
He received power and authority from his Spirit Father God..he was in perfect harmony with the Fathers will..he was an amazing man, there will never be another like him.
Chosen and predestined to become Gods Son.
Slaughtered at the hands of man,that’s how much God loves us that he gave up his only Son ,so that we could have eternal life in him.
We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.
- John 4:14: “But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life”.
- John 7:38: “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water”.
- Jeremiah 17:13: “O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the Lord”
- Zechariah 14:8-9: “And on that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem…”
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 6:50-71 - This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die
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In the parable of the sower, the sower sows the seed / the word.
Jesus said the words (the seed) that he spoke are spirit and life.
Being born again is tied to the seed / word / gospel that Jesus preached.
Words are closely connected with seed / life in scripture.
God spoke (uttered the words / the commands) and the Genesis creation came into existence. All that God created was inside him, in his mind, in his plan, in his purpose, in his foreknowledge before it literally existed. He did it alone, by himself.*
If we can firmly grasp that action in the Genesis creation, we should remember it when we come to the new creation in the womb of the virgin.
The Apostles’ Creed (see the link) is right when it opens with the assertion that God, the Father Almighty, is the creator of the heavens and the earth. One person, not three persons. The Father is the God of Abraham; the God and Father of the Messiah.
Apostles' Creed
The God who created the heavens and the earth (see the Apostles’ Creed, which Christianity Broad officially endorses), is the one true God. The creator of the heavens and the earth is a single self.
God (the God of Abraham / the God of Jesus) didn’t beget himself, nor did he beget another God.
God beget a human being; a human person -> Jesus, the Messiah.
Blessed be the creator, the God and Father of Jesus.
God (the God of Abraham / the God of Jesus) didn’t beget himself, nor did he beget another God.
God beget a human being; a human person -> Jesus, the Messiah.
Blessed be the creator, the God and Father of Jesus.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Nice try, but lacking in discernment, rich in deception though.Jesus holds all things together
But what about the fact that Jesus is said to hold all things together? Doesn’t this indicate he is deity?
Some believers reason that only God could hold the universe together, therefore, Jesus must be God. Bestselling Christian author, Max Lucado, who believes Jesus is God, wrote about how he imagined Jesus and the universe related to one another when Jesus was an infant:
Of course, this creates quite the conundrum. First, Jesus is never referred to as “the Almighty” in Scripture.[23] Second, if Jesus is said to be the one who holds the universe together, how did he manage to accomplish this when he was developmentally unable to do the simplest of tasks such as walking? How can you hold all things together if you need someone to change your diaper? Surely, there is a more reasonable explanation.
What are the “all things” that Jesus holds together?
Again, according to the context, all things refers to the governance of the coming kingdom, not the universe or Creation. Jesus holds the kingdom together because God has given him the power and the authority to do so. That is to say, the coming kingdom coalesces with the exalted Jesus as its head.
Not only is the governance of the kingdom under Jesus’ delegated authority, so is the Church:
By virtue of his death and resurrection, Jesus is not only pre-eminent in the coming kingdom, he is also the head of the Church and the first to be raised to immortality. Thus, he will come to have first place in everything both on earth and in heaven.
Conclusion
God created the structure of the kingdom, its governance and hierarchy, with the king in mind. Paul was not teaching the church in Colossae that Jesus is God or that he is the Creator or even the Co-Creator. Rather, Paul was emphasizing that Jesus is the one chosen by God to rule and reign in the coming/ongoing/maturing kingdom, having been exalted to God’s right hand, he now occupies first place in everything.
[1] God has given Jesus the kingdom, appointing him as ruler under His authority: Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 21:33-40; 28:18; 1 Corinthians 15:23-28; Ephesians 1:19-23; Philippians 2:9-11.
[2] NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary
[3] John 7:16-17; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10, 24.
[4] Acts 2:22; 10:38; John 3:2; 5:19; 14:10; 17:4, etc.
[5] Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 3:21, etc.
[6] Justin Martyr is technically considered one of the Apostolic Fathers, a term that refers to someone who lived in the late first or second centuries and who is thought to have known one of the twelve apostles or was strongly influenced by them. They do not carry the same weight or authority as the twelve apostles.
[7] The term “asleep” is used in Scripture as a euphemism for death.
[8] Berean Study Bible, Berean Literal Bible, ASV, Douay-Rheims, ERV, Weymouth, Wycliffe, etc.
[9] The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Vol. 3, W. Robertson Nicoll, ed., (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1903), p. 504.
[10] A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Syntax, Vol. 3, Nigel Turner, (T & T Clark, 1963), p. 253.
[11] Sir Anthony Buzzard, The One God, the Father, One Man Messiah Translation, (McDonough, GA: Restoration Fellowship, 2014), p. 497.
[12] James D.G. Dunn, Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1989) p. 190.
[13] Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, #1223 dia
[14] Isaiah 44:24.
[15] BiblicalUnitarian.com, Colossians 1:15-20, accessed 10-20-19. https://www.biblicalunitarian.com
[16] E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, (1898), p. 245.
[17] Colossians 1:13ff.
[18] Earthly: Luke 12:11, 20:20; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Titus 3:1. Heavenly: Romans 8:38; 1 Peter 3:22; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12.
[19] 1 Corinthians 15:23-28.
[20] Philippians 2:5-11.
[21] Hebrews 2:9; Acts 2:26; Colossians 2:15; Philippians 2:5-11.
[22] Max Lucado, Just a Moment, accessed 10-18-19,
"Just a Moment" - Max Lucado
It all happened in a moment, a most remarkable moment. As moments go, that one appeared no different than any other. If you could somehow pick it up offmaxlucado.com
[23] “Almighty” appears 58 times in the Bible as a reference to God. Revelation 21:22 distinguishes between God, who is the Almighty and Jesus, who is the Lamb. Despite some translations’ use of “red letters,” Revelation 1:8 is not a reference to Jesus because only God is called “the Lord God” or “the Lord God Almighty” in each of the 134 times it appears in Scripture.
Let me ask you a question. If Jesus is God, wouldn't Satan try to deceive people to think He wasn't and for what reason? Yes, He would. Why? In order that He is dishonored, degraded to someone of lesser status than God and to deprive Him of worship, since only God should be worshipped. But every knee will bow to Jesus, as many of us do now worship Him.
APAK, I like many of your posts - just have to take sides on this one.
The scripture is very simple and straight forward, no in depth dissertation or even exegesis is needed - it already has been done. Pick any of the 60 English translations. But of course you can't take it for it's basic face value communication, the Non-Trinitarian must tear it apart and redefine it, create diversions and arrive at a different conclusion. It really is comical how these blind theologians do this and then lead 2-3% of the Christian body astray.
Non-Trinis must always work hard towards these conclusions.
"For by him all things were created",
Wait for it ... here it it:
"in heaven and on earth",
Gee, that covers a lot. Specifically what things? People, animals, plants, the earth and let's not forget angels ( since heaven is mentioned as well and we know who created the angels), planets and the entire universe!
"visible and invisible",
Physical or spiritual. Everything that you can see in the physical realm and we must include unseen forces: nuclear, electromagnetic, atomic, gravitational, etc., and everything in the unseen spiritual realm as well.
"whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities"
Is this a category of previous things mentioned? No, it is an additional part of the list, just an inclusive either/or statement.
God is sovereign over everything! He didn't just create everything in it and just let it go for man to control under his own dominion and authority. So it is a necessary part of creation to include, those put in charge of it.
—ALL THINGS were created through him and for him"
How can a person who is not God possess all authority (power) in heaven and on earth? Omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence ( qualities only God possesses, not angels) is required for that job!
Everyone who is begotten has a beginning in time, an origin, a genesis, in the womb of his or her mother.
God himself (there is no such being as God “themselves” or “himselves” in scripture) wasn’t begotten. There was no one to beget him. He has always existed.
God himself (there is no such being as God “themselves” or “himselves” in scripture) wasn’t begotten. There was no one to beget him. He has always existed.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
We have been Born Of God His seed remains in us, it remains in our spirit ,as that is where we are Born Again, the seed that came forth out of Gods mouth when he decided to birth us in the Spirit..penetrated our heart /spirit as it’s a Living seed, the Holy Spirit is Gods Living seed, he is also Gods Living witness.
Only he can testify to our heart/ spirit who God is, that he exists and is an almighty God...he is the Living witness to the Lord Jesus, testifies to my spirit that he died an agonising death, was the Son Of God, hung on a cross died then was resurrected.
My testimony.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
God. The one God. There is only God himself. The only other alternative in scripture is idols - and idols aren’t ever a good alternative.
Speaking of the lack of discernment Ronald, why introduce a strawman and then attempt to support it as a real fact?
You introduced your idea that is not plausible anyway...it is wishful thinking.
You said: "If Jesus is God, wouldn't Satan try to deceive people to think He wasn't and for what reason? Yes, He would. Why? In order that He is dishonored, degraded to someone of lesser status than God and to deprive Him of worship, since only God should be worshipped. But every knee will bow to Jesus, as many of us do now worship Him."
So that is what I think of this ploy/twist and then the rest of your response. It is a quick knee-jerk response to a 'heavy' deeper subject.
There's no tear apart or heavy lifting on my part in knowing that the Son of God does not hold 'all' things together as in ALL - The full/entire PAS.
I think you then need to read critical parts in Colossians first/or again, before you dive into quick conclusions, besides your lack of context accent in you words of Paul's words to his audience.
In fact, if you actually read all the posts I provided of Colossians 1, you have to see a clearer and simpler view that what you are trying to show, and without understanding. These are not just mere words of scripture to move around and fit/force into one's doctrine, right. Some actual thought process must be installed first...start with the context of the writings, the audience, the reason why Jesus is now pre-eminent, why he holds the church together, why he has organized things, powers and thrones in both heaven and on earth, and why his Father is still in charge...of it ALL
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
@Matthias You made the point, that God had no beginning, Gid does not beget God. What you can't still grasp is the concept of God becoming a human as in "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". The second person of the Triune God, emptied Himself into a fetus, whom was begotten and thus became the Son of God also called the Son of Man. His spirit always existed. This is why Jesus is called the God/man, fully God and fully man, having two natures, one physical, one divine.
Let me ask you this: Before God created anything, even angels, do you think He was all alone? He said when He created Adam, it was not good for him to be alone. Family has always been important in our human existence and then friends, significant others living working together. To be alone is not good - for anyone. Relationships are essential and fundamental. We have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So with that, wouldn't it make sense that God is three persons and not just One? God would be quite lonely before creation ... and for how long?
Let me ask you this: Before God created anything, even angels, do you think He was all alone? He said when He created Adam, it was not good for him to be alone. Family has always been important in our human existence and then friends, significant others living working together. To be alone is not good - for anyone. Relationships are essential and fundamental. We have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So with that, wouldn't it make sense that God is three persons and not just One? God would be quite lonely before creation ... and for how long?
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