THE Trinity can Now be discussed.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Paul's teaching on the return of Christ, says
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
God the Father does not appear, but God the Son does as He is the image of the invisible God.
Meaning when Christ appears your seeing God, but you are not seeing God the Father.
Here's an extract from 'The Doctrine of the TRINITY... Mystery or Confusion?'.
Whence, Then, The Trinity?
Where did this doctrine come from? When did it come? For what Reason? How did it take hold? Probably it developed as an overzealous response to the vital gnostic heresies which began to surface even in John's day, and afflicted the church for about two centuries. Gnostics proposed that Jesus was not actually the Messiah -- some say he was an apparition, or a materialization, others a simple man possessed for a time by the Christ -- but all agreed that the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, did not suffer and die on the cross.
This fundamentally undercuts the Truth of Christianity, and against such views were John's strong warnings in 1 John 1:22,23, 4:1-3, 2 John 7. Indeed, these epistles of John and even the Gospel of John, read with the backdrop of these heresies in mind, take on a fresh and deeper meaning than ever before. It is for this reason that John was forceful in affirming that the very Jesus "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled" (1 John 1:1) was the very Word of life who existed from ages before with the Father, the agent of all the Father's creative work from the beginning. This very one did indeed suffer and die on the cross for our sins. John was there when it happened, a firsthand witness. "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe" (John 19:35).
As John passed from the scene the gnostic heresies grew in strength, causing a severe pressure within the early Christian community. In combatting this error, and in emphasizing the significance, uniqueness and importance of Jesus, the very Son of God himself, it was natural to attach more and more weight to him, even over-emphasizing his office and majesty beyond that allowed in the scriptures. Little by little a greater and greater image of him was put forward, resulting in such erroreous views as Sabellius put forward in the 3rd century, claiming that Jesus was but an expression of the one God, and not a lesser though glorious separate being. This was generally rejected, but in the end a sad compromise was reached which left distorted the real verities regarding Christ, the highly honored Son of the Most High God.
The early affirmation of the Church fathers that Christ was both created and subordinate gave way to new theories, until the old adherents were moved to a staunch defense. The great Arian controversy erupted as a result, philosophy was argued in the name of Christian doctrine, and a great rift formed in the fledgling body of Christ.
The Nicene Creed
About this time, in the early 4th century AD, Constantine came to power, first of the so-called Christian Emperors. The foment and dissension was so apparent, and so divisive to his empire, he insisted the breach be healed, by force if necessary. Under his influence hordes of former pagans were becoming "Christian" in name, and there was an urgency to resolve these issues in a way conducive to the growth and tranquility of his domain.
With this backdrop a Council was convened at Nice, and through much tumult was forged the highly ambiguous and strangely worded Nicene Creed, which has been an enigma ever since. No wonder. The language used to "settle" the debate was drawn not from scripture, but from the very pagan sources the emperor wished to make comfortable with their newly acquired "faith."
The Historical Buildup
To grasp the enormity and significance of what occured at Nice, we need to review some of the historical FACTS regarding the Trinity.
Fact One -- The word Trinity is nowhere found in the scriptures.
Fact Two -- Not one of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement, Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr) mentioned this doctrine in any of the 1200 pages of text they left us.
Fact Three -- When the word "Trinity" first appeared in Christian writings it meant nothing like it does today. It simply implied the existence of God, his Word, and Wisdom.
Fact Four -- Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius and Lactantius (all early and revered Christian writers) explicitly affirmed that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus is subordinate to His will and authority (The Lord our God is one Lord, Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick, page 2). "During the first three centuries ... almost all of the early church Fathers ... admitted the inferiority of the Son to the Father" (Alvan Lamson, Church of the First Three Centuries).
Fact Five -- The early formal statement of Christian belief never mentions the word "Trinity" or any of its concepts. It is termed the "Apostles' Creed" (though not composed by the apostles). It was used extensively in the 2nd and 3rd centuries of the Christian era. As regards God and Jesus, it affirms exactly what we affirm. It says simply:
Language Lifted from Heathen Sources
Now compare that simple statement of belief, so clear and brief, to the Creed produced from the Council at Nice in 325 AD. (Our comments
in Bold Italic.)
Note these strange, philosophical, mystical expressions -- "one substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God." Such strange words, foreign alike to the word and sense of any Scripture. Where, oh where do these come from? Who invented them? Whence their source? The answer is both startling, and chilling. John Newton, in Origin of Triads and Trinities, wrote
Will Durant, the popular Catholic historian of our day, wrote:
No wonder the confusion. No wonder the controversy. No wonder the debate. No wonder that all Christendom was torn by disputes about the Trinity.
Whence, Then, The Trinity?
Where did this doctrine come from? When did it come? For what Reason? How did it take hold? Probably it developed as an overzealous response to the vital gnostic heresies which began to surface even in John's day, and afflicted the church for about two centuries. Gnostics proposed that Jesus was not actually the Messiah -- some say he was an apparition, or a materialization, others a simple man possessed for a time by the Christ -- but all agreed that the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, did not suffer and die on the cross.
This fundamentally undercuts the Truth of Christianity, and against such views were John's strong warnings in 1 John 1:22,23, 4:1-3, 2 John 7. Indeed, these epistles of John and even the Gospel of John, read with the backdrop of these heresies in mind, take on a fresh and deeper meaning than ever before. It is for this reason that John was forceful in affirming that the very Jesus "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled" (1 John 1:1) was the very Word of life who existed from ages before with the Father, the agent of all the Father's creative work from the beginning. This very one did indeed suffer and die on the cross for our sins. John was there when it happened, a firsthand witness. "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe" (John 19:35).
As John passed from the scene the gnostic heresies grew in strength, causing a severe pressure within the early Christian community. In combatting this error, and in emphasizing the significance, uniqueness and importance of Jesus, the very Son of God himself, it was natural to attach more and more weight to him, even over-emphasizing his office and majesty beyond that allowed in the scriptures. Little by little a greater and greater image of him was put forward, resulting in such erroreous views as Sabellius put forward in the 3rd century, claiming that Jesus was but an expression of the one God, and not a lesser though glorious separate being. This was generally rejected, but in the end a sad compromise was reached which left distorted the real verities regarding Christ, the highly honored Son of the Most High God.
The early affirmation of the Church fathers that Christ was both created and subordinate gave way to new theories, until the old adherents were moved to a staunch defense. The great Arian controversy erupted as a result, philosophy was argued in the name of Christian doctrine, and a great rift formed in the fledgling body of Christ.
The Nicene Creed
About this time, in the early 4th century AD, Constantine came to power, first of the so-called Christian Emperors. The foment and dissension was so apparent, and so divisive to his empire, he insisted the breach be healed, by force if necessary. Under his influence hordes of former pagans were becoming "Christian" in name, and there was an urgency to resolve these issues in a way conducive to the growth and tranquility of his domain.
With this backdrop a Council was convened at Nice, and through much tumult was forged the highly ambiguous and strangely worded Nicene Creed, which has been an enigma ever since. No wonder. The language used to "settle" the debate was drawn not from scripture, but from the very pagan sources the emperor wished to make comfortable with their newly acquired "faith."
The Historical Buildup
To grasp the enormity and significance of what occured at Nice, we need to review some of the historical FACTS regarding the Trinity.
Fact One -- The word Trinity is nowhere found in the scriptures.
Fact Two -- Not one of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement, Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr) mentioned this doctrine in any of the 1200 pages of text they left us.
Fact Three -- When the word "Trinity" first appeared in Christian writings it meant nothing like it does today. It simply implied the existence of God, his Word, and Wisdom.
Fact Four -- Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius and Lactantius (all early and revered Christian writers) explicitly affirmed that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus is subordinate to His will and authority (The Lord our God is one Lord, Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick, page 2). "During the first three centuries ... almost all of the early church Fathers ... admitted the inferiority of the Son to the Father" (Alvan Lamson, Church of the First Three Centuries).
Fact Five -- The early formal statement of Christian belief never mentions the word "Trinity" or any of its concepts. It is termed the "Apostles' Creed" (though not composed by the apostles). It was used extensively in the 2nd and 3rd centuries of the Christian era. As regards God and Jesus, it affirms exactly what we affirm. It says simply:
"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord: who was conceived by the holy spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God, the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the holy spirit; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen"
Language Lifted from Heathen Sources
Now compare that simple statement of belief, so clear and brief, to the Creed produced from the Council at Nice in 325 AD. (Our comments
in Bold Italic.)
"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God begotten of the Father, Only-begotten, (so far so good, the language is mostly from the Apostles Creed. But now follows the strange new terminology) that is of the substance of the Father; God of God; Light of Light; very God of very God; begotten, not made; of the same substance with the Father; (end of mystical language, back to scriptural language) by whom all things were made, both things in heaven and things in earth; who for us men and our salvation descended and became flesh, was made man, suffered, and rose again the third day. He ascended into heaven; he cometh to judge the quick and dead. And in the Holy Spirit. (Now resumes the new concepts, full of bitterness to dissenters.) But those that say there was a time when he was not; or that he was not before he was begotten; or that he was made from that which had no being; or whom affirm the Son of God to be of any other substance or essence, or created, (despite three clear scriptures!) or variable, or mutable, such persons doth the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematize."
Note these strange, philosophical, mystical expressions -- "one substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God." Such strange words, foreign alike to the word and sense of any Scripture. Where, oh where do these come from? Who invented them? Whence their source? The answer is both startling, and chilling. John Newton, in Origin of Triads and Trinities, wrote
"With the first glimpse of a distinct religion and worship among the most ancient races, we find them grouping their gods in triads. ... [now citing Professor Sayce from Gifford Lectures and Hibbert Lectures] 'The indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very same terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt.' [Newton continues] And now we see some meaning in the strange phrases that have puzzled so many generations in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, such as 'Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten not Made, Being of one Substance with the Father.' These are all understandable enough if translated into the language of the Solar Trinity [worshipped in ancient Egypt], but without this clue to their meaning, they become sheer nonsense or contradictions ... The simplicity and symmetry of the old Sun Trinities were utterly lost in forming these new Christian Creeds on the old Pagan models. ... The [pagan] trinities had all the prestige of a vast antiquity and universal adoption, and could not be ignored. The gentile converts therefore eagerly accepted the Trinity compromise, and the Church baptized it. Now at length we know its origin." (John Newton, Origin of Triads and Trinities, Liverpool, 1909, pp. 20-21, 25-27).
Will Durant, the popular Catholic historian of our day, wrote:
"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it ... pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist results. From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity ..." (Caesar and Christ, page 595) (Lamson, Newton & Durant cited from Charles Redeker, To Us there is One God, June 1978).
No wonder the confusion. No wonder the controversy. No wonder the debate. No wonder that all Christendom was torn by disputes about the Trinity.
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You have no witness witnessing that truth to your heart.
You have no understanding of being Alive in Spirit, I hope and pray that your spirit is alive ,as by reading your posts it sure don’t sound like it.plus by whose testimony would you know that you are Alive in Spirit?
You don’t even understand what it means to be be Born Again..by the Living testimony of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore your version of the trinity..that God is Jesus, can’t be proven.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You keep going downhill instead of Rising in TRUTH = Read the Gospel of John and PRAY for understanding
All according to you..Jesus is the Son Of God..he is not God, plus he is seated at the right hand of God,so all the scripture that you have posted, has been blown straight out of the water.
Acts 7:54-60
King James Version
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
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Like I said above..come back to me when you understand the rebirth.
Spirit gives birth to spirit = by supernatural divine heart revelation..because you will never grow in spiritual knowledge if you don’t understand what it means, you’ll just keep going over the same ground like I see you constantly doing.
As Hebrews 10:12-13notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world, the ...
Acts 7:54-60
King James Version
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
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It is an explanation how God and Christ and the Spirit could be one GOD.
Regardless, believe this like Christ said,
John 14
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
As Hebrews 10:12-13notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world, the ...
He reigns with God, just as his word says,
Jesus said that and then the Holy Spirit through Paul says this,
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [b]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [c]principality and power.
Notice it comes with a warning, as some philosophies lie about the truth
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest anyone [a]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [b]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [c]principality and power.
Notice it comes with a warning, as some philosophies lie about the truth
Come on guys can you please stop judging where people stand with regards to their testimonies - it’s getting tiresome. Just for the record I have believed in the trinity since I came to faith, it’s a deep inner conviction and I never even heard about it from anyone else - it’s just something I believe. I ‘came to faith ‘ ‘ came alive spiritually ‘ over 30 years ago. Just because it doesn’t line up with what others believe ect about a testimony, it doesn’t make it untrue or invalid.
Warning points or people being banned from the thread will be issued if certain kinds of judgments continue. Discuss the subject itself.
Friendly warning xx
Warning points or people being banned from the thread will be issued if certain kinds of judgments continue. Discuss the subject itself.
Friendly warning xx
Acts 7:54-60
King James Version
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Father is a transcendent being, the creator of all that exists. The son is a man, who represents the Father in character and authority.
Look at this @Wrangler ..he saw the glory of God ,and Jesus standing on the right hand of God..he was standing on his hand..standing on God’s hand?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Josh 24
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;
I freely chose the Lord God Almighty.
1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
I freely elected the Lord God Almighty.
2Pet.1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
I freely called AND elected the Lord God Almighty.
Matt 20: Gods Word challenged me …. IF I was Able….
[22]: …able to drink of the cup that Jesus drank of, and be baptized with the baptism that Jesus was baptized with?
And TO Jesus (not you) I freely gave my answer, I was Able.
Romans 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
I freely confessed with my mouth unto the Lord God Almighty my Heartful Belief IN and Of Him.
By, Through, Of Gods Biblical Spiritual Offering and Way…
I absolutely DID Of my own FREEWILL, call, choose, elect and Confess the Lord God Almighty….
And If that is not to your liking or belief ….
So what?
I was Freely Establishing a Forever Offered Relationship with my Lord, my God, His Spirit, His Truth, my King, my Master, my Creator, my Maker….. not you.
No where In Scripture did I search for “your words” to verify Gods Word and to establish a Relationship with God.
“Your word” does Not align in agreement with Gods Word….since you claim you had NOT your own FREEWILL to Choose God.
( I do not imagine in the least God Forcing Anyone To be With Him, that which THEY have not FREELY Chosen Him. )
Glory to God,
Taken
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Would you agree that a person that has a human as a mother and God as father is half-human and half-God?
Or even 100% human and 100% God?
[
Would you agree that a person that has a human as a mother and God as father is half-human and half-God?
Or even 100% human and 100% God?
Jesus doesn't fit that definition. So, what was he?
[
That’s your own understanding of said scripture.
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure I said don’t discuss testimony, I think I said please don’t sit in judgment of one another’s testimony. By all means share testimony - it’s important xx
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