Israel

[Carl Emerson]

Surely how God acts is exemplified in the reality of Jesus.....who, according to the book of Hebrews is the exact replication of God's character.

Agreed...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Surely how God acts is exemplified in the reality of Jesus.....who, according to the book of Hebrews is the exact replication of God's character.

Hebrews 1:1-3
'In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,

In my words, the Prophets didn't always get it right when representing the character of God. They interpreted God through their own filter which was often violence.
As the text above says, Jesus is the radiance of God's glory......and who are we told to listen to when the voice on the Mount of Transfiguration speaks? Was it Moses? Was it Elijah? (Prophets) ....no, it was Jesus we are told to listen to.

So, why do we revert to quoting OT prophets accounts when it comes to understanding the character of God? Is it because they often underpin our own desire for violence and our own faulty interpretation of Justice?

The standard recourse in justifying violence with Jesus is the account in the temple area of driving out the livestock, overturning the tables of the moneychangers and making a whip. It assumes Jesus had a whip the size of a cowboy's and used it on the people there. That is an erroneous construct used by those who love violence. They have not heard Jesus, they have not heard who the Voice on the mountain told us to listen to. They have listened to their own carnal nature and used scripture to justify it......just like those who condemned Jesus and who got totally pissed off with Stephan when he brought this to their attention. Acts 6:8 through to the end of Acts 7

So Isaiah for example responded to His encounter with the Father with his own carnal nature ???

I don't think so....

1In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted; and the train of His robea filled the temple. 2Above Him stood seraphim, each having six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3And they were calling out to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts;

all the earth is full of His glory.”

4At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke.

5Then I said:

“Woe is me,

for I am ruined,

because I am a man of unclean lips

dwelling among a people of unclean lips;

for my eyes have seen the King,

the LORD of Hosts.”


Jesus and the Father are one in nature.

 

[quietthinker]

So Isaiah for example responded to His encounter with the Father with his own carnal nature ???

I don't think so....

1In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted; and the train of His robea filled the temple. 2Above Him stood seraphim, each having six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3And they were calling out to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts;

all the earth is full of His glory.”

4At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke.

5Then I said:

“Woe is me,

for I am ruined,

because I am a man of unclean lips

dwelling among a people of unclean lips;

for my eyes have seen the King,

the LORD of Hosts.”


Jesus and the Father are one in nature.

When Isaiah says both good and evil emanate from God he is in error (Isaiah 45:7) His perception of God's character is faulty because we know from 1 John 1:5 that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.....and this, yes this is the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

When Isaiah says both good and evil emanate from God he is in error (Isaiah 45:7) His perception of God's character is faulty because we know from 1 John 1:5 that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.....and this, yes this is the testimony of Jesus.

Try a different translation...

Isaiah 45:7​

English Standard Version​

7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Attributing Evil to God is not a recommended practice...

Creating darkness and being evil are two different things.

 

[Scott Downey]

People might say God's judgement is evil such as when He brings about the destruction of an evil city or people, example of Sodom comes to mind, but it's a righteous response of God that He punishes bad behavior. And God has brought about the collapse of nations through war and disease and calamity in judgements against the evils they do.

 

[quietthinker]

Try a different translation...

Isaiah 45:7​

English Standard Version​

7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Attributing Evil to God is not a recommended practice...

Creating darkness and being evil are two different things.

so, God creates calamity?

 

[Carl Emerson]

so, God creates calamity?

For sure - when I moved away from faith, God created calamity in my life and this shipwrecked state bought me back to Him.

Depart from His wisdom and there are consequences.

Those the Lord Loves He disciplines and this is a life saver.

 

[quietthinker]

For sure - when I moved away from faith, God created calamity in my life and this shipwrecked state bought me back to Him.

Depart from His wisdom and there are consequences.

Those the Lord Loves He disciplines and this is a life saver.

I thought God was not the God of confusion (calamity) and that that responsibility belonged to Satan.
Attributing that which belongs to Satan to God, In my view is a scary and dangerous place to inhabit. It blames God for that which Satan is responsible.

 

[Scott Downey]

For sure - when I moved away from faith, God created calamity in my life and this shipwrecked state bought me back to Him.

Depart from His wisdom and there are consequences.

Those the Lord Loves He disciplines and this is a life saver.

That is because Christ cares for His sheep, and when one wanders away, He goes and gets them to bring him back to God.
He won't leave us as orphans. And he purchased us, so really He has invested Himself in us.

Acts 20:28
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And maybe some of those are about the new earth to come where there is no more evil.

Isaiah 66
18 “For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and [c]Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

Then a break of time....The coming new earth and new heavens are going to be permanent cause all evil things will have been destroyed in His wrath, and they won't be coming back. They went to the lake of fire.

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Well flesh cannot inherit eernity.

There is a kingdom promised to Israel that will come to pass. the NT only adds how long that kingdom will last-1000 years

Gentile nations will keep feast of tabernacles. They will send representatives to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to God. any nation tht doesn't will suffer drought.

Sacrifices will be conducted in the millennial temple.

People will give birth and repopulate the earth. People will have to their 100th birthday to accep[t Jesus.

David sits on teh throne.

Israel is the focal center of the earth.

and on and on.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Like returning to animal sacrifices in the temple?
Can't anyone see how wrong this is.

Well Scripture says there will be. Ez. 44-45 describe the sacrifices. These have not happened so they will happen in the millennial kingdom.

Like returning to animal sacrifices in the temple?
Can't anyone see how wrong this is.

Will there be animal sacrifices during the millennial kingdom? | GotQuestions.org

Will there be animal sacrifices during the millennial kingdom? If Christ’s sacrifice was perfect and sufficient, why would animals need to be sacrificed during the millennium?

www.gotquestions.org

I won't post the whole awful thing as you can read it too, if anyone wants.

******************************************************
There are several passages in the Old Testament that clearly indicate animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennial kingdom. Some passages mention it in passing as the topic of the millennial kingdom is discussed, passages like Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18.

The passage that is the most extensive, giving the greatest detail, is Ezekiel 43:18-46:24. It should be noted that this is part of a greater passage dealing with the millennial kingdom, a passage that begins with Ezekiel 40. In Ezekiel 40, the Lord begins to give details of the temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom, a temple that dwarfs all other temples previously built, even Herod’s temple that was quite large, which existed during the earthly ministry of Christ.

After giving details concerning the size and appearance of the temple and the altar, the Lord then begins to give detailed instruction as to the animal sacrifices that will be offered (Ezekiel 43:18-27). In chapter 44, the Lord gives instructions as to who will be offering sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord states that all of the Levites will not be offering blood and fat to the Lord due to previous sin; it will be those from the lineage of Zadok (verse 15). Chapters 45 and 46 continue to mention that animal sacrifices will be made.

The primary objection made to the idea of animal sacrifices returning during the millennial kingdom is that Christ has come and offered a perfect sacrifice for sin, and there is therefore no need to sacrifice animals for sin. However, it must be remembered that animal sacrifice never removed the sin that spiritually separated a person from the Lord.

Hebrews 10:1-4 says, “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (NASB).

It is incorrect to think that animal sacrifices took away sins in the Old Testament, and it is incorrect to think they will do so in the millennial kingdom. Animal sacrifices served as object lessons for the sinner, that sin was and is a horrible offense against God, and that the result of sin is death. Romans 3:20 says, “Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”

This commentary makes many unsubstantiated assumptions, mainly that the sacrifices in the millennial have the same value as OT sacrifices! They do not.

Ez. 40-44 describes the millennial temple. we know this is future for no temple has met this "blueprint".

But as for sacrifices:

Why are the animal sacrifices resumed during the millennium?

Discover the answer to why the Mosaic sacrifices will resume in the millennial kingdom. The sacrifices are listed in Ezekiel 40 and 45.

www.neverthirsty.org

This is an excellent website that brings the many Scriptures together and show the differences between the old sacrificial system and the millennial system.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you were playing a game of lets say, Chess, does beating your opponent mean you are violent?
Doesn't his/ her defeat arise out of poor/ bad strategy. Isn't their defeat the result of their own misguided judgement?

Why do we conclude that a God of Love would defeat the enemy or those opposed to him with violence/ force?

Simply because the bible says so.

You can spend lots of time trying to find a satisfying philosophical answer, but I believe you will not. we must trust god knows what He is doing and does what is perfect.

 

[Scott Downey]

Well Scripture says there will be. Ez. 44-45 describe the sacrifices. These have not happened so they will happen in the millennial kingdom.


This commentary makes many unsubstantiated assumptions, mainly that the sacrifices in the millennial have the same value as OT sacrifices! They do not.

Ez. 40-44 describes the millennial temple. we know this is future for no temple has met this "blueprint".

But as for sacrifices:

Why are the animal sacrifices resumed during the millennium?

Discover the answer to why the Mosaic sacrifices will resume in the millennial kingdom. The sacrifices are listed in Ezekiel 40 and 45.

www.neverthirsty.org

This is an excellent website that brings the many Scriptures together and show the differences between the old sacrificial system and the millennial system.

Ezekiel 43 Study Bible

biblehub.com

I see this not as actual. What happened in Ezekiel's time? You find the answer in that.
There was another temple built, a second temple. God's is saying there will be another temple, and there was.
It is a vision of the rebuilt coming second temple.

The coming 3rd temple is not a temple of God, Antichrist will sit there proclaiming Himself God and likely demand worship.

Any rebuilt temple ignores the fundamentals on the indwelling Spirit, Father, Son who we are now of His home, as a temple for God to dwell in.
We who keep His words are the temple of God. There is no longer any purpose for a physical building functioning as a temple of God for Him to dwell in as God dwells in His people.

The entire OC temple system, God declared obsolete, and it vanished, passed away. We live in NC times now.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son​

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and [f]manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I see this not as actual. What happened in Ezekiel's time? You find the answer in that.
There was another temple built, a second temple. God's is saying there will be another temple, and there was.
It is a vision of the rebuilt coming second temple.

But it wasn't the second temple.

Also if you see this is not actual then you have serious issues! for what promises can you believe in as actual?????

Even the4 Muslims believe this is actual! that is why they put a cemetery in front of the eastern gate so the Jewish Messiah cannot enter the eastern gate! but He will in the future


Sorry but the 2nd temple did not fit all that was spoken to God to Ezekiel in 44-48

 

[Scott Downey]

But it wasn't the second temple.

Also if you see this is not actual then you have serious issues! for what promises can you believe in as actual?????

Even the4 Muslims believe this is actual! that is why they put a cemetery in front of the eastern gate so the Jewish Messiah cannot enter the eastern gate! but He will in the future


Sorry but the 2nd temple did not fit all that was spoken to God to Ezekiel in 44-48

Sure, but that is not of importance
It is just for encouragement at the time of the destruction of the first temple, which was experienced in Ezekiel's time.
Not all prophecies are realized literally. You know that.

And there is no longer any physical temple system of animal sacrifice forever into the future that is of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I thought God was not the God of confusion (calamity) and that that responsibility belonged to Satan.
Attributing that which belongs to Satan to God, In my view is a scary and dangerous place to inhabit. It blames God for that which Satan is responsible.

You might read 1 Chron 21 as follows.

Here we see Satan distinct from the angel of the Lord and the Lord Himself.

Calamity in this passage comes from God Himself.

21 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 3 But Joab said, “May the Lord add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord's servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” 4 But the king's word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. 5 And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. 6 But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king's command was abhorrent to Joab.

7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. 8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” 9 And the Lord spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, 10 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” 11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Choose what you will: 12 either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the Lord, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 13 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

14 So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. 15 And God sent the angel to Jerusalem to destroy it, but as he was about to destroy it, the Lord saw, and he relented from the calamity. And he said to the angel who was working destruction, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 16 And David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, and in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. 17 And David said to God, “Was it not I who gave command to number the people? It is I who have sinned and done great evil. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand, O Lord my God, be against me and against my father's house. But do not let the plague be on your people.”
gs.​

 

[quietthinker]

Simply because the bible says so.

You can spend lots of time trying to find a satisfying philosophical answer, but I believe you will not. we must trust god knows what He is doing and does what is perfect.

Surely thinking about implications is also necessary?

 

[quietthinker]

You might read 1 Chron 21 as follows.

Here we see Satan distinct from the angel of the Lord and the Lord Himself.

Calamity in this passage comes from God Himself.

21 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 3 But Joab said, “May the Lord add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord's servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” 4 But the king's word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. 5 And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. 6 But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king's command was abhorrent to Joab.​

​

7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. 8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” 9 And the Lord spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, 10 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” 11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Choose what you will: 12 either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the Lord, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 13 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”​

​

14 So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. 15 And God sent the angel to Jerusalem to destroy it, but as he was about to destroy it, the Lord saw, and he relented from the calamity. And he said to the angel who was working destruction, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 16 And David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, and in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. 17 And David said to God, “Was it not I who gave command to number the people? It is I who have sinned and done great evil. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand, O Lord my God, be against me and against my father's house. But do not let the plague be on your people.”​

gs.​

You've wandered off focus Carl. You're reverting to the OT narrative at the expense of what Jesus revealed about his Father.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You've wandered off focus Carl. You're reverting to the OT narrative at the expense of what Jesus revealed about his Father.

You assume that the reference Jesus made concerning His Father exhaustive - Paul talks of the Kindness and Severety of God - you are presenting one side only.