What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[TheHC]

How do you square this with the casual scene when they ate thereof?
Would they behave that way if they understood what death was?

[

I don’t understand.
What casual scene?
Behave which way?

 

[TheHC]

Actually many animals do bury their dead and many do in fact have rituals for them including visiting the graves and mourning years later. Such as with elephants.

Many? Can you provide a list?

 

[Skovand]

Many? Can you provide a list?

Can I? Yes I can. But I’m not going to. It’s more important that you learn how to google this kind of information. But I’ll help some.

Here is a journal article on chimps and rituals surrounding death.

Primate thanatology and hominoid mortuary archeology - PMC

In recent years, a thanatology of primates has become a respectable research topic, and although still sparse, observations among several taxa have shown how complex responses to the dead can be. In human evolutionary archeology, re-analysis of old ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is a video showing monkeys trying to comfort one another after they think a baby lonely died.

I’m sure you are aware that numerous insects bury their dead. Hundreds of species of ants do.

We also see evidence of other species of humans burying their dead such as with Neanderthals.

New evidence: Neandertals buried their dead

Dozens of buried Neandertal skeletons have been discovered in Eurasia, leading some scientists to deduce that, like us, Neandertals buried their dead. Other experts have been sceptical, however, given that the majority of the best-preserved skeletons, found at the beginning of the 20th century...

www.cnrs.fr

Here are various random rituals.

Death rituals in the animal kingdom

We know humans find some form of value in guarding or watching the bodies of the deceased, but we are beginning to discover that animals may have similar needs.

www.bbc.com

Asian elephants mourn, bury their dead calves: Study

Asian elephants loudly mourn and bury their dead calves, according to a study by Indian scientists that details animal behavior reminiscent of human funeral rites.

phys.org

Studies have shown this is not about predators either since they don’t do this with other animals.

Some animals are even affected so much they end their lives such as potentially with dolphins.

Also in slaughter houses we see animals mourning and comforting.

Just look at death rituals in the animal kingdom.

 

[Ritajanice]

Actually many animals do bury their dead and many do in fact have rituals for them including visiting the graves and mourning years later. Such as with elephants.

What animal buries its dead?
ElephantsThey bury their dead and pay tribute to the bodies and to the bones. Scientists have observed that elephants feel empathy: they toss dust upon the wounds of fellow elephants, they help others climb out of mud and holes, they even have been seen plucking tranquilizing darts from one another with their trunks.

 

[Ritajanice]

1. Elephants​

In One Amazing Elephant, Queenie Grace is an elephant grieving the loss of her trainer, Bill. Elephants do grieve, and they are one of the few animals who are similar to humans in mourning patterns. Believe it or not, elephants cry. They bury their dead and pay tribute to the bodies and to the bones. Scientists have observed that elephants feel empathy: they toss dust upon the wounds of fellow elephants, they help others climb out of mud and holes, they even have been seen plucking tranquilizing darts from one another with their trunks. Researchers have observed elephants trying to help dying friends, lifting them with tusks and trunks, crying out in distress.

2. Monkeys​

Monkeys of many different species act like “gate-keepers” or guards of their deceased loved ones, often standing watch over the body for days. They have been seen carrying the bodies of their dead babies, often for weeks, while screaming out in grief. Monkeys have strong social and familial connections, and it is believed that they are well-aware that their companions have passed. Much as humans come together in mutual bonding when a shared loved one dies, so, too, do monkeys. They gather in groups and hug one another. Like elephants, chimpanzees often become so depressed after a death that they refuse to eat, sometimes even starving to death.

3. Dolphins​

Marine biologists have often observed dolphins supporting their dead offspring at the surface of the water. There are differences among the dolphins of different species, though. A recent study discovered that the Atlantic spotted dolphin abandoned the carcasses of their dead much sooner than other species. It is believed by scientists that dolphins grieve partly because they live in pods of related individuals, where they usually spend a lifetime together. New evidence suggests that dolphins, like elephants and apes, may understand their own mortality and that of their loved ones.

4. Giraffes​

In a Kenyan conservancy in 2010, a female giraffe remained beside the body of her one-month-old calf for more than four days. Other females joined her and seemed to commiserate, wrapping their necks around one another in a sort of hug. Like human beings, the giraffes seemed to find comfort in connecting with one another in their shared emotions.

5. Dogs​

Dogs standing sentry at the graves or coffins of their deceased loved ones have been depicted for centuries in artwork. Researchers have known for years that dogs mourn when their owners die, and a recent study has revealed even more about the inner workings of canine grief. Scientists now believe that to get an idea of how dogs grieve, we can consider them somewhat similar to a child of two to five years old. They don’t understand the finality of death and cling to the concept that the one who is gone will certainly return. This is why dogs often refuse to leave the side of their deceased owners.

 

[Skovand]

There are clues in the Scriptures that help us understand things in a little more detail.
For instance, what was the devil doing there in the garden in the first place?

Ezekiel helps us out there.....when God had him direct a dirge to the King of Tyre, we can see by his words that he is actually addressing someone whom the King was emulating in his disposition and conduct.....
Ezekiel 28:….
“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .

They were prepared on the day you were created.
14  I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
15  You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . . .

17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.”

There are things in this dirge that do not apply to the human King of Tyre.
He was not in the garden of Eden....and he was not an anointed covering cherub, walking about on fiery stones.
No sinful human was “a model of perfection”, except Jesus. No human was “faultless” either, apart from Jesus, and the King of Tyre was not “created”.
So this dirge was really about satan and the circumstance pertaining to his rebellion in Eden. He was carried away by his own magnificence and wanted the worship that the new humans would give to their Creator.....but first he would have to separate them from God and take his place in their life, deceptively gaining their worship through the various false religions that he ended up introducing into the world.

When we get to see the big picture, we can see what the devil wanted and how he came to achieve it.
God allowed him to gain what he wanted.....he was handed rulership of the world (Luke 4:5-7) to show all mankind, as well as his angelic brothers, what results from gaining a knowledge of evil.
Did they “become like God” or did God know that it was not ever beneficial to know what evil was?

There is only one reason why humans became evil....and it goes back to the loss of their original perfection when sin entered into the world through Adam’s disobedience. The devil, by abusing his own free will, set the human race on a course that required God to send Jesus to redeem them by offering his own life in exchange for theirs.

They were never in heaven....they were mortal beings, created to live on an earth that was carefully prepared for all the creatures that God created to enjoy life here. Placed in a beautiful garden, planted by God, they wanted for nothing, and death would never have overtaken them if they had remained obedient.
When they lost their perfection through sin, death would take them into the degeneration of old age and sickness.
They were given a commission to “fill the earth” with their children and to “subdue” or tame the land outside the garden. Eventually the whole world would have looked like an Edenic paradise.... but we lost that because of three very selfish individuals.....yet, not forever. A reality check was in order. They could not be told to be obedient to God, so he had to show them what disobedience would lead to….and here we are.

I have heard of similar experiences. One of my spiritual sisters was working in a rough neighbourhood and called at the door of a man notorious for his hatred of religion and his anger often expressed in violent outbursts, but this day he was non-combatant, even polite. We heard later that a friend of his had seen the exchange and asked him why he responded so calmly to this older lady on her own. The man explained that it wasn’t the lady but the big burly fellow that was with her that made him back off. So unbeknownst to this dear sister, apparently an angel was with her in her ministry that day.

We really don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, just as Job was unaware of the fact that he was being used as a test case in a faithfulness to his God, in very extreme circumstances. Could we have withstood what Job did, without knowing why it was happening? God knew in advance that Job was a man of strong faith and integrity, and that his faith would hold out.
God will never allow us to go beyond what we can bear. (1 Cor 10:13)

Wanted to highlight perfection and sinless don’t mean the same things. Jesus for example was sinless, but probably not perfect. He probably made mistakes like used the wrong word, tripped while walking and so on.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
How do you square this with the casual scene when they ate thereof?
Would they behave that way if they understood what death was?

I don’t understand.
What casual scene?
Behave which way?

If I told you that if you ate from a certain tree you would most certainly die,
how would you react if someone recommended eating from it?

Yet in the Garden scene we see A&E casually speaking with the serpent about it.
It doesn't seem like the natural reaction to a potentially deadly situation.

Which begs the question of whether A&E really did understand the consequences.
What did they know of death?

[

 

[Ritajanice]

Wanted to highlight perfection and sinless don’t mean the same things. Jesus for example was sinless, but probably not perfect. He probably made mistakes like used the wrong word, tripped while walking and so on.

What a valid point, thank you.

 

[TheHC]

…how would you react if someone recommended eating from it?

Satan did way more than that. He affirmed, “You positively will not die.”
And then, he said she would actually benefit from it.

So let’s consider the whole account, and not skip parts. It makes a difference.

What did they know of death?

The animals dying.
(And keep in mind, Jehovah provided no more explanation. Which points to there being nothing else after death. Only in the future Resurrection “at the last day”)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wanted to highlight perfection and sinless don’t mean the same things. Jesus for example was sinless, but probably not perfect. He probably made mistakes like used the wrong word, tripped while walking and so on.

Do you have anything but an opinion on that? Is there something in the Scriptures themselves that leads you to believe that Jesus was not a perfect creation of his Father as Adam was? By “perfect”, I mean flawless....without defect.

Was Jesus born with a DNA match to Adam? Was there any DNA match with the rest of the human race?
Or was Jesus’ birth unique? (Heb 4:15; Heb 7:26)

Why did Jesus have to be born “sinless”? Why did God have to “send” him into the world the way he did?
Why not just have him materialise and give his sinless life for ours, if all he needed to do was ‘die for us’? Angels had materialised and appeared to God’s human servants before...some even accepted hospitality as they ate and drank what was provided by their host....as human as anyone could assume them to be. (Gen 18)

To understand why Jesus had to be “perfect” (without the defect of sin), you have to know what redemption is......so what is a redeemer? And why did Jesus need to become one? What are the mechanics behind the process? Can you tell me?

 

[Skovand]

So I don’t think that Jesus’s birth was a miracle. I think he was most likely the byproduct of a Roman rape from Mary being a spirit of love and trying to help a colonizer.

Then Jesus was born, and as he drew closer to God, he was eventually upheld to being equal with God after resurrection. Something that while alive, he did not even consider of himself.

I don’t have time to go into this very long technical discussion. If you want to know more of what I think I suggest digging into the work by Jack Levison and looking into the various Christian arguments for low Christology versus high Christology.

However, none of that has to do with highlighting the differences between perfection and sinless. I don’t need the Bible to answer everything. Such as I don’t need the Bible to tell me Jesus never accidentally tripped. But it does. In Luke 23 it says he fell down.

 

[quietthinker]

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?​

Thereof they ate and Eve said, you better cover Johnny boy cuz I got a suspicion it aint gonna go well when we see da boss.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So I don’t think that Jesus’s birth was a miracle. I think he was most likely the byproduct of a Roman rape from Mary being a spirit of love and trying to help a colonizer.

Then Jesus was born, and as he drew closer to God, he was eventually upheld to being equal with God after resurrection. Something that while alive, he did not even consider of himself.

I don’t have time to go into this very long technical discussion. If you want to know more of what I think I suggest digging into the work by Jack Levison and looking into the various Christian arguments for low Christology versus high Christology.

However, none of that has to do with highlighting the differences between perfection and sinless. I don’t need the Bible to answer everything. Such as I don’t need the Bible to tell me Jesus never accidentally tripped. But it does. In Luke 23 it says he fell down.

Your vast knowledge of Scripture is duly noted.....especially with regard to Jesus’ mother and the manner of his birth.....apparently you don’t need the Bible to answer anything with responses like that.

How can anyone take you seriously? Are you listening to the right people? How would you know when the deviation is so far into the realms of the ridiculous?!

 

[Skovand]

Your vast knowledge of Scripture is duly noted.....especially with regard to Jesus’ mother and the manner of his birth.....apparently you don’t need the Bible to answer anything with responses like that.

How can anyone take you seriously? Are you listening to the right people? How would you know when the deviation is so far into the realms of the ridiculous?!

Again. If you don’t know anything about this. If you don’t know anything about high vs low Christology and if you’ve not read work by different scholars , not just your view, but many views, then you don’t really have a informative opinion.

What usually happens is someone is raised up in a specific type of Christianity. Even with a wide range of views from denominations like Mormonism, Catholic, Baptists, Methodists, church of Christ, Pentecostal and so on, it’s all from a very specific form of biblical interpretation which is influenced by how you approach the Bible for your entire life, until you learn there are other approaches and that these various beliefs also are dated back all the way to early Christianity. It tends to be within a framework of “biblical literalism, biblical concordism, biblical inerrancy” and so on. I understand those views well because I grew up in them and believed them for the majority of my life. I use to believe in a 6k year old world, literal six day creationism, a real Abraham, Moses and Adam. Use to believe in an all powerful and all knowing God. Believed that for 2/3rds of my life with the last 1/3rd as a young adult.

As I got older, and had more money I begin to read more and more books by actual scholars of the Bible. Not just from one denomination, or even from views I now agree with. I read a wide range of views, including those I disagreed with. How do I k is the way I’m not strayed to far…. Same way everyone does. Same way you do…. Same way those who stray to far do…. Those who are correct do and so on. I look at the data and draw conclusions and trust that God is able to guide me through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As I got older, and had more money I begin to read more and more books by actual scholars of the Bible. Not just from one denomination, or even from views I now agree with. I read a wide range of views, including those I disagreed with. How do I k is the way I’m not strayed to far…. Same way everyone does. Same way you do…. Same way those who stray to far do…. Those who are correct do and so on. I look at the data and draw conclusions and trust that God is able to guide me through the Holy Spirit.

How do you account for all the denominationalism? Do not all these denominations have their favoured scholars who interpret the Bible to their taste? How many ways can you carved up God and his son and his word?

Can they all be right? Does God speak with a forked tongue?....telling this group one thing and something completely different to the next? NO!!! But the devil does.....he was a liar from the beginning....so how does one looking for the diamond in that pile of broken glass, actually find it?

The devil, Jesus said, was to sow counterfeit Christianity in the world, and this master of deception and confusion sowed so many “weeds” that it is very difficult to discern between them. But the “wheat” exist, growing in the world with them. Only at the harvest time will the reapers be sent to pull out the weeds and destroy them first....then they are instructed to gather the wheat and bring them into the Master’s storehouse.

Nothing is left to chance because Jesus is sent to judge us on his Father’s behalf. As a reader of hearts, Jesus knows those who are genuine disciples and those who are just pretending to be. True disciples are living their Christianity....the pretenders just do, or refrain from doing, whatever they can justify.

When the judgment comes only “few” will find themselves on the cramped and narrow road to life, whereas the “many” will suffer a stinging rejection.....it comes as a shock and with many excuses offered. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) None are accepted.

True Christians teach one truth, not many versions of it whilst all claiming to be right with God. These boards are proof of those divisions....but God’s spirit unites his worshippers.....it does not divide them....nor does it have one set of rules for one body and a different set for another. God never changes.

Only God can lead a person to find the diamond in an ever growing pile of useless broken “Christianity”. (John 6:44; 65) We will all find out soon enough if we have put our faith in the right teachers.

 

[quietthinker]

How do you account for all the denominationalism? Do not all these denominations have their favoured scholars who interpret the Bible to their taste? How many ways can you carved up God and his son and his word?

Can they all be right? Does God speak with a forked tongue?....telling this group one thing and something completely different to the next? NO!!! But the devil does.....he was a liar from the beginning....so how does one looking for the diamond in that pile of broken glass, actually find it?

The devil, Jesus said, was to sow counterfeit Christianity in the world, and this master of deception and confusion sowed so many “weeds” that it is very difficult to discern between them. But the “wheat” exist, growing in the world with them. Only at the harvest time will the reapers be sent to pull out the weeds and destroy them first....then they are instructed to gather the wheat and bring them into the Master’s storehouse.

Nothing is left to chance because Jesus is sent to judge us on his Father’s behalf. As a reader of hearts, Jesus knows those who are genuine disciples and those who are just pretending to be. True disciples are living their Christianity....the pretenders just do, or refrain from doing, whatever they can justify.

When the judgment comes only “few” will find themselves on the cramped and narrow road to life, whereas the “many” will suffer a stinging rejection.....it comes as a shock and with many excuses offered. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) None are accepted.

True Christians teach one truth, not many versions of it whilst all claiming to be right with God. These boards are proof of those divisions....but God’s spirit unites his worshippers.....it does not divide them....nor does it have one set of rules for one body and a different set for another. God never changes.

Only God can lead a person to find the diamond in an ever growing pile of useless broken “Christianity”. (John 6:44; 65) We will all find out soon enough if we have put our faith in the right teachers.

1....Do you think there are truths you don't understand AJ?
2....If there are, which ones are they? or
3....Is it that you understand every truth that needs to be understood?
4....You say, 'True Christians teach one truth,...' What truth would that be?

 

[Skovand]

How do you account for all the denominationalism? Do not all these denominations have their favoured scholars who interpret the Bible to their taste? How many ways can you carved up God and his son and his word?

Can they all be right? Does God speak with a forked tongue?....telling this group one thing and something completely different to the next? NO!!! But the devil does.....he was a liar from the beginning....so how does one looking for the diamond in that pile of broken glass, actually find it?

The devil, Jesus said, was to sow counterfeit Christianity in the world, and this master of deception and confusion sowed so many “weeds” that it is very difficult to discern between them. But the “wheat” exist, growing in the world with them. Only at the harvest time will the reapers be sent to pull out the weeds and destroy them first....then they are instructed to gather the wheat and bring them into the Master’s storehouse.

Nothing is left to chance because Jesus is sent to judge us on his Father’s behalf. As a reader of hearts, Jesus knows those who are genuine disciples and those who are just pretending to be. True disciples are living their Christianity....the pretenders just do, or refrain from doing, whatever they can justify.

When the judgment comes only “few” will find themselves on the cramped and narrow road to life, whereas the “many” will suffer a stinging rejection.....it comes as a shock and with many excuses offered. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) None are accepted.

True Christians teach one truth, not many versions of it whilst all claiming to be right with God. These boards are proof of those divisions....but God’s spirit unites his worshippers.....it does not divide them....nor does it have one set of rules for one body and a different set for another. God never changes.

Only God can lead a person to find the diamond in an ever growing pile of useless broken “Christianity”. (John 6:44; 65) We will all find out soon enough if we have put our faith in the right teachers.

So it’s not putting faith in teachers. Faith is something that develops with lack of evidence. Accepting the evidence is different. What changed my mind is over a decade of reading hundreds of books by dozens and dozens of biblical scholars presenting evidence.

Can multiple ones be right? Yes. We have several different bibles in existence that all have several difference in the books they believe are true, and in how long the books are. Before Christianity came around there was already several different Jewish sects with different traditions. Sauducees and Pharisees are both different sects of Jews with very different religious beliefs. Jesus never said one was right or one was wrong.

In the Bible we have verses that can’t be harmonized with other verses. We have different traditions placed side by side in the Bible ( biblical
Seams ). Like Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 2 is actually older than Genesis 1 and they are different creation accounts. 1 Samuel 16 and 17 tell completely different stories on how David and Saul met for the first time and later on we see completely different stories on who killed Goliath how he was killed. So within the very framework of just some of our modern bibles we see completely different denominations.

 

[TheHC]

Your links were informative.

However, your comment…

I’m sure you are aware that numerous insects bury their dead. Hundreds of species of ants do

… their behavior is from instinct. Surely you don’t think ants have intelligence.

Your statement about “other species of humans”, I’d venture to say you meant other races. Races whose lines became extinct. Like prior to or at the Flood.

Such as apparently the Denisovan and Neanderthal groups.

But this is off-topic.

 

[Skovand]

Your links were informative.

However, your comment…

… their behavior is from instinct. Surely you don’t think ants have intelligence.

Your statement about “other species of humans”, I’d venture to say you meant other races. Races whose lines became extinct. Like prior to or at the Flood.

Such as apparently the Denisovan and Neanderthal groups.

But this is off-topic.

I would venture to say that you don’t know science and have greatly misunderstood what I said.

1. Yes animals have intelligence. Ants have intelligence. Ants even have been shown to have individual personalities.

2. No. Not other races. Other species of humans. Races are just skin tones. There was roughly 21 species of humans in the last several million years.

3. There was never a flood. The flood is fiction. . It’s a myth in the Bible. I suggest looking at articles within a site like Biologos founded by Francis Collins.

 

[TheHC]

1. Yes animals have intelligence.

I never said otherwise. Please don’t present strawman arguments.

Ants have intelligence. Ants even have been shown to have individual personalities.

This is what I questioned.
They have a “hive mind”, not individuality.

Personalities as individuals? No…

They have ‘group personalities’, which are apparently shaped by their environment, ie., availability of different foods.

2. No. Not other races. Other species of humans. Races are just skin tones. There was roughly 21 species of humans in the last several million years.

Not all hominid lines are human. And assessing what are hominin lines is a tricky problem.

Such views are distinct supporters of naturalism, let’s face it.

They completely negate the need for any Savior.

You’ve been misled, my friend. Revelation 12:9

3. There was never a flood. The flood is fiction. . It’s a myth in the Bible. I suggest looking at articles within a site like Biologos founded by Francis Collins.

Again, all of this is off-topic.
I will start a thread about this topic in the appropriate forum, replete with evidence, and tag you.

I know science. (Well, a lot of it.) And I know it’s deficits.

Have a good day.