Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[Ritajanice]

Thank you! I do not like to block people personally, but there are some who are ruled by a spirit of hatred and malice that is not of our Lord Christ ... and who conversation with does little to advance Christ or his Kingdom.

Amen!!!

 

[Mjh29]

@Mjh29 ..what a gentleman that you are Sir..a breath of fresh air..

Not I, but Christ in me friend - but I thank you for the kind words! I was not always this way... I'm eternally grateful for a Savior who works this Spirit in me!

 

[Johann]

To be perfectly honest, no. I do not. Nor do I see many fruits of the spirit in any of your posts.
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control.

Where are these in your responses to others? You'll excuse me if I mute you now - no offense meant, but your posts are very hard to follow for me, and are not at all edifying. I truly hope that the Spirit works in your life in such a way that you begin to manifest such fruits that are of Him - I pray the same for my own life as well.
Have a blessed rest of your day.

Brother @Mjh29, you have every right to share Scripture and uplift others here, just as anyone else does.

Keep the faith.

J.

 

[Mjh29]

Brother @Mjh29, you have every right to share Scripture and uplift others here, just as anyone else does.

Keep the faith.

J.

I thank you for the kind words! I know I am not always correct; I do believe that my beliefs are of the Scriptures, and will always be willing to share why - however, if I disagree with someone, all I can do is share my opinions, and pray that Christ either convicts their heart OR MINE to repentance and acknowledging of the truth!

 

[Ritajanice]

Not I, but Christ in me friend - but I thank you for the kind words! I was not always this way... I'm eternally grateful for a Savior who works this Spirit in me!

Yes, apologies Lord, you are the gentleman in this man and what a gentleman that you are Lord Jesus.

Just as your word says, we will know them by their fruit..

 

[Mjh29]

Yes, apologies Lord, you are the gentleman in this man and what a gentleman that you are Lord Jesus.

Just as your word says, we will know them by their fruit..

To know that Christ saw fit to use me to bring Himself glory and honor! I can only give thanks and praise to Him!

 

[Ritajanice]

Not I, but Christ in me friend - but I thank you for the kind words! I was not always this way... I'm eternally grateful for a Savior who works this Spirit in me!

Me neither Brother, I used to be a raving loony, but, a Born Again will bear Jesus fruit...that old man in me, is showing up less and less in me these days.....

Let the light shine through from within our hearts, show kindness and love to one another..

 

[Behold]

To know that Christ saw fit to use me to bring Himself glory and honor! I can only give thanks and praise to Him!

Amen.

And please do not Sell Calvinism on the Forum, as this is a "doctrine of devils".. Hebrews 13:9

 

[Johann]

I thank you for the kind words! I know I am not always correct; I do believe that my beliefs are of the Scriptures, and will always be willing to share why - however, if I disagree with someone, all I can do is share my opinions, and pray that Christ either convicts their heart OR MINE to repentance and acknowledging of the truth!

I love your signature-it truly encapsulates a powerful truth!

Likewise, I acknowledge that I’m not always correct, but we are many members of one body, each needing the other as Scripture teaches in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27. I strive to remain teachable, ready to receive correction in the spirit of Proverbs 27:17, which reminds us, "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another."

Moreover, I hold to 1 Peter 3:15, seeking always to give an answer for the hope within me, but with gentleness and respect. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance, as beautifully stated in Ephesians 1:13-14.

Let us continue to encourage and edify one another in love!

Shalom.

J.

 

[Mjh29]

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and Angels, and have not love, I am as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I had the gift of prophecy, and knew all secrets and all knowledge, yea, if I had all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and had not love, I were nothing.

3 And though I feed the poor with all my goods, and though I give my body, that I be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Love suffereth long: it is bountiful: love envieth not: love doth not boast itself: it is not puffed up:

5 It doth no uncomely thing: it seeketh not her own thing: it is not provoked to anger: it thinketh no evil:

6 It rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth:

7 It suffereth all things: it believeth all things: it hopeth all things: it endureth all things.

8 Love doth never fall away, though that prophesyings be abolished, or the tongues cease, or knowledge vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is in part shall be abolished.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child: I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass darkly: but then shall we see face to face. Now I know in part: but then shall I know even as I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love.

 

[Mjh29]

I love your signature-it truly encapsulates a powerful truth!

Likewise, I acknowledge that I’m not always correct, but we are many members of one body, each needing the other as Scripture teaches in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27. I strive to remain teachable, ready to receive correction in the spirit of Proverbs 27:17, which reminds us, "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another."

Moreover, I hold to 1 Peter 3:15, seeking always to give an answer for the hope within me, but with gentleness and respect. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance, as beautifully stated in Ephesians 1:13-14.

Let us continue to encourage and edify one another in love!

Shalom.

J.

I could not agree more; we must converse with one another as Christ would converse with us Himself.

 

[Behold]

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and Angels, and have not love, I am as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I had the gift of prophecy, and knew all secrets and all knowledge, yea, if I had all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and had not love, I were nothing.

3 And though I feed the poor with all my goods, and though I give my body, that I be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Love suffereth long: it is bountiful: love envieth not: love doth not boast itself: it is not puffed up:

5 It doth no uncomely thing: it seeketh not her own thing: it is not provoked to anger: it thinketh no evil:

6 It rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth:

7 It suffereth all things: it believeth all things: it hopeth all things: it endureth all things.

8 Love doth never fall away, though that prophesyings be abolished, or the tongues cease, or knowledge vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is in part shall be abolished.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child: I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass darkly: but then shall we see face to face. Now I know in part: but then shall I know even as I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope and love, even these three: but the chiefest of these is love.

Lovely verses..

and....Readers should remember that Jesus, whom Paul loved... took cords of Rope, and made a small WHIP out of them and went into the Temple in Jerusalem ., and chased many people out of it, using that Whip.

"Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever".

So, another way to look at God's Love, is to protect a Church from people who want to deceive church members with their Calvinism.

Now, if we consider that "where 2 are gathered in my Name"... Jesus says.. is the same as a church.. then certainly, if hundreds are joined on a Forum.. then that is an online "assembly".
So, would we want Heresy, and Heretics, to try to harm real believers on the forum "assembly"...., or harm a new believer, with their Calvinism, or any other Cult-ism?
If we let them, is that "showing the Love of Jesus"?

A.) Think.

So, are we not showing Genuine Agape' LOVE, when we try to protect weak believers on a forum from the devilment that deceivers as members on forums would try to lead them into = by their FALSE THEOLOGY posts and Threads? = Calvinism, and other "cult-ISMS".?

Well, if we all can see it that way.. then we all have arrived into a genuinely balanced understanding of some things regarding a CHRISTIAN Forum.... .that we can't have, if we only think of God's love as sweet talk.
In fact, when a (John Calvinism) = heretic is prevented from harming the faith of forum members, then that is probably some of the greatest Agape' love shown on a "christian".. Forum.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Yes. God directs our steps....
But do we listen?

TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART....
LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING...
IN ALL YOUR WAY ACKNOWLEDGE HIM...
AND HE WILL DIRECT YOUR PATH.
Proverbs 3

So,,,do we always listen?
Do we always take the path the Lord directs us to?

God directs our paths....
He would keep us on track...
if only we obeyed every time.

There are a lot of Bible verses we are both applying here.

I can counter all the Scriptures that you give me and vice versa.

We have been down this path many times.

I can answer all that you have said.

Here is what it comes down to for me.

If unregenerate man hates God, the cross is foolish to him,] and his mind is set on the flesh, how can he choose to be saved?

Does not God's Spirit have to "quicken" unregenerate man to receive the gift of faith? Ephesians 2:8.

I mean, forget election and predestination.

Saving faith comes from God.

Salvation is from God, God draws men to His son, they do not come on their own accord.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The above verses says man does not have free will to choose salvation.

The Bible does have passages that man should choose.

I believe than man can only choose if God gives them the gift of faith to do so.

I study a lot of Soteriology, I do not truly believe any one person knows this paradoxical mystery of salvation.

On one hand humans are responsible to come to Christ, on the other hand they cannot, God has to do the choosing.

I believe Macarthur has it right.

1. Divine Sovereignty: John MacArthur emphasizes that salvation is a sovereign work of God, fully initiated and accomplished by Him. He affirms that God’s sovereignty is evident throughout Scripture, including Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and 2 Timothy 1:9.
2. Human Responsibility: MacArthur also stresses the importance of human responsibility in salvation, highlighting the need for faith and repentance. He argues that while God sovereignly chooses and saves individuals, humans must respond to the gospel message and believe in Christ.
3. Twin Truths: MacArthur emphasizes the parallel nature of these two truths, stating that they must be believed together. He argues that attempting to resolve the apparent paradox between divine sovereignty and human responsibility through mental gymnastics or evasion is misguided.
4. God’s Initiative: MacArthur emphasizes God’s initiative in salvation, highlighting His choice and election of individuals before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29-30). He notes that God’s sovereignty extends to every aspect of salvation, including the call to faith and the granting of spiritual gifts.
5. Human Response: MacArthur affirms that human response to God’s initiative is necessary, but emphasizes that this response is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). He argues that the Holy Spirit generates faith and hope in Christ, making it possible for humans to respond to God’s call.
6. Practical Implications: MacArthur notes that acknowledging God’s sovereignty has profound practical implications. He warns against arrogant boasting or unnecessary worry, instead encouraging believers to rest in God’s sovereign control and goodness (Isaiah 46:10).

Salvation is a mystery, like knowing the Trinity and Jesus being Fully human and fully God.

 

[Johann]

There are a lot of Bible verses we are both applying here.

I can counter all the Scriptures that you give me and vice versa.

We have been down this path many times.

I can answer all that you have said.

Here is what it comes down to for me.

If unregenerate man hates God, the cross is foolish to him,] and his mind is set on the flesh, how can he choose to be saved?

Does not God's Spirit have to "quicken" unregenerate man to receive the gift of faith? Ephesians 2:8.

I mean, forget election and predestination.

Saving faith comes from God.

Salvation is from God, God draws men to His son, they do not come on their own accord.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The above verses says man does not have free will to choose salvation.

The Bible does have passages that man should choose.

I believe than man can only choose if God gives them the gift of faith to do so.

I study a lot of Soteriology, I do not truly believe any one person knows this paradoxical mystery of salvation.

On one hand humans are responsible to come to Christ, on the other hand they cannot, God has to do the choosing.

I believe Macarthur has it right.

1. Divine Sovereignty: John MacArthur emphasizes that salvation is a sovereign work of God, fully initiated and accomplished by Him. He affirms that God’s sovereignty is evident throughout Scripture, including Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and 2 Timothy 1:9.
2. Human Responsibility: MacArthur also stresses the importance of human responsibility in salvation, highlighting the need for faith and repentance. He argues that while God sovereignly chooses and saves individuals, humans must respond to the gospel message and believe in Christ.
3. Twin Truths: MacArthur emphasizes the parallel nature of these two truths, stating that they must be believed together. He argues that attempting to resolve the apparent paradox between divine sovereignty and human responsibility through mental gymnastics or evasion is misguided.
4. God’s Initiative: MacArthur emphasizes God’s initiative in salvation, highlighting His choice and election of individuals before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29-30). He notes that God’s sovereignty extends to every aspect of salvation, including the call to faith and the granting of spiritual gifts.
5. Human Response: MacArthur affirms that human response to God’s initiative is necessary, but emphasizes that this response is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). He argues that the Holy Spirit generates faith and hope in Christ, making it possible for humans to respond to God’s call.
6. Practical Implications: MacArthur notes that acknowledging God’s sovereignty has profound practical implications. He warns against arrogant boasting or unnecessary worry, instead encouraging believers to rest in God’s sovereign control and goodness (Isaiah 46:10).

Salvation is a mystery, like knowing the Trinity and Jesus being Fully human and fully God.

Welcome to the Forum @ElectedbyHim.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

What's the connection between Rom 9:22 (the green) and Rom 1:21-25 ?

EDIT - By the absence of a reaction allow me to answer my own question. Before people become vessels of wrath God gave them much time to repent respecting their free will (endured with much longsuffering) like with Pharaoh, like with the people in Rom 1:24.

I assume my understanding will probably not fit well with Calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello again friend!
Firstly, I would like to wish you a blessed day today - I hope that this discussion can be fruitful! Let's start with some points of agreement!



I agree completely. A verse does not create a solid foundation for a biblical view - it should be the whole of Scripture which guides ones steps! This is actually a rather convenient segway into my first train of thought! Before we discuss things very far, I believe (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong ... I often am ) that in order to have a fruitful conversation about beliefs, we first need to define what proper, and improper, biblical interpretation is consistent of. Here are the rules of interpretation I believe that we are to approach the Scriptures with:

---

Faithful Interpretation

A faithful interpretation of the Scriptures pays attention to some of the finer details of the text, such as taking the time to note how certain words and phrases were interpreted by the people of that era and time period. For example, "Dawn we now our gay apparel" did not mean that people of that day and age were dressing in "Pride" clothing;

LOL
That's pretty funny.
I speak 3 languages...I think I know about this.
Besides the fact that culture also effects what words mean.

while the same word, it carries a much different connotation today. The same is true for some words and phrases in the Scriptures - by faithful interpretation, I simply mean to uncover what the author intended to convey by focusing on the context behind certain words and phrases. Additionally, faithful interpretation pays close attention to the flow of thought and grammatical patterns of a passage

Taking the Genre into consideration is also a large part of faithful interpretation. For example, take this poem:

Dreams by Langston Hughes
Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly.
Hold fast to dreams
For when dreams go
Life is a barren field
Frozen with snow.

Do dreams actually die? Does Langston believe that life is an actual, physical bird with a broken wing? If so, how could life also be a barren, frozen icy field? Of course, no one interprets this poem in such a manner; we understand that, as a poem, it speaks more to allegory in this particular occasion. Here's an example of a literal poem - same genre, different contextual meaning

If- by Rudyard Kipling
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

Here we see advise in a poetic format that IS to be taken quite literally - literally keeping yourself calm when being blamed, literally trusting yourself when men doubt, literally dealing truthfully when others lie. ALSO a poem... one literal, the other allegorical.

All this is to say that genre matters in interpreting Scripture faithfully, and to interpret it in a way as it was MEANT to be interpreted. The Scriptures contain sections of poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic literature, instruction, and so on, each with its own conventions that inform the way a text should be understood. Poetry likely contains figures and images that reference things beyond just their physical forms, as seen above. Narrative is likely just relaying a series of events, and so on.

I've got another one for you:
What does THIS mean:

I NEVER SAID YOU STOLE MONEY.

I'm not in middle school M,,,I think we could proceed.

---

Responsible Interpretation

Secondly, I believe that we must interpret the Scriptures in a responsible manner; simply put, Scripture should interpret Scripture, as it is our only infallible rule of faith and practice. The ultimate objective of Scriptural interpretation is to discern what God Himself has to say about who He is, and what He has done for us in Christ. As you said it would be alright with you if I quoted it, here's what the Confession of Faith says about Biblical interpretation (I'll place quotations from Confessions in RED, and Scripture quotations in GREEN, to make it a bit easier to see which is which - this summarizes rather well what I am trying to say above - however, as I stated previously, you can feel free to ignore the Confessional quotations and simply read my posts / Scripture quotation if you wish!

---

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 1.6-7

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. (a)

Amen. And one of my pet peeves with calvinism is that some idea is always added to scripture.

Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word (b): and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. (c)

Not sure what this has to do with our discussion...but OK.

All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all (d): yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them (e)

---

(a) - Gal. 1:8-9 , 2 Thes. 2:2 , 2 Timothy 3:15-17
(b) - John 6:45 , 1 Cor. 2:9-12
(c) - 1 Cor. 11:13-14 ; 14:26 ; 40

M,,,,not only do I agree with the above, but, already, I read something that denies calvinism.
Look what it says:
WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW, AND BELIEVE, AND DO TO BE SAVED - THESE THINGS ARE SO CLEARLY TAUGHT IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT BOTH THE THEOLOGIAN AND THE MAN IN THE "PEW" CAN UNDERSTAND THEM.

Here's a question for you:
If God predestinates those chosen for heaven WHY would it be necessary for the NT to teach us what we need to know to be saved?

With all this said, I would first like to ensure that we are on the same page when it comes to rightful interpretation of the Scriptures - would these "rules of interpretation" be agreeable to you?

Looking forwards to your response! Thank you for the patience!

I have the Westminster Confession of Faith in front of me but it's the modern language version.

I DO want to make one comment....
everyone always states that the Holy Spirit taught them what they know.
Then, I would ask, why do we believe different doctrine?
Is God a God of confusion?

I believe that what we believe can also be formed from what a denomination teaches BEFORE we get to read the NT on our own and thus, maybe, we go to it with preconceived ideas. Our life experiences might also affect what we believe. However, I don't think this is a hindrance to having a discussion.

 

[Mjh29]

Hello again!

LOL
That's pretty funny.
I speak 3 languages...I think I know about this.
Besides the fact that culture also effects what words mean

I completely agree! I personally only speak one language fluently and can read Koine a bit; I'm glad you agree!

I've got another one for you:
What does THIS mean:

I NEVER SAID YOU STOLE MONEY.

I'm not in middle school M,,,I think we could proceed.

My apologies if I offended you and your intelligence; I never want to assume anything about someone I'm discussing something with, so I thought it would be helpful to explain a bit of how I interpret. I'm glad we can agree on this as well!

WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW, AND BELIEVE, AND DO TO BE SAVED - THESE THINGS ARE SO CLEARLY TAUGHT IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT BOTH THE THEOLOGIAN AND THE MAN IN THE "PEW" CAN UNDERSTAND THEM.

Absolutely!

Yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them

The Perspicuity of Scripture!

Here's a question for you:
If God predestinates those chosen for heaven WHY would it be necessary for the NT to teach us what we need to know to be saved?

A great question! This would be because God has selected the Word (Scriptures) as His means of dispensing grace to His people!

(1 Corinthians 2:12-13 , 2 Timothy 3:16 , Matthew 4:4 , Hebrews 4:12)

God has ordained the means through which He would dispense His Grace to His people; and this means happens to be the Word, Scripture.

I have the Westminster Confession of Faith in front of me but it's the modern language version.

Oh! Very nice! You know, I've been meaning to pick one up; would you happen to know how it compares to the original? (If not that is totally fine, I was just a bit curious lol)

I DO want to make one comment....
everyone always states that the Holy Spirit taught them what they know.
Then, I would ask, why do we believe different doctrine?
Is God a God of confusion?

I do not believe that God is a God of confusion, no! I believe that differences in rest solely on the shoulders of man; as an imperfect creature, we are bound to make mistakes in our interpretations of the Word (my own included, I know that everything I believe is in no way a "perfect truth")

I believe that what we believe can also be formed from what a denomination teaches BEFORE we get to read the NT on our own and thus, maybe, we go to it with preconceived ideas.

Absolutely. This happens quite often; where a verse is read with a preconceived notion in mind, which finds it's way ported into the text. 100% agree! And I certainly do not believe that this is a hinderance to good discussion though!

Thank you very much for the post! Have a blessed day!

 

[GodsGrace]

There are a lot of Bible verses we are both applying here.

I can counter all the Scriptures that you give me and vice versa.

We have been down this path many times.

I can answer all that you have said.

Exactly.
It's all in the HOW verses are understood, and scripture in general.
I believe the full idea is that man is born sinful and requires a Savior.
Jesus is that Savior.

Where we part is in the HOW man takes advantage of this wonderful opportunity of salvation.
YOU believe a person is chosen before the beginning....thus not giving anyone else this advantage to salvation.

I believe God so loves the world (His creation) that He offers to EVERYONE the opportunity of salvation.

I said at the beginning that I don't like verse ping pong.
I've explained how I understand 3 of the many verses you've stated.
You could do the same.

And then that ends it. You know me....I don't go on forever.

Here is what it comes down to for me.

If unregenerate man hates God, the cross is foolish to him,] and his mind is set on the flesh, how can he choose to be saved?

We can choose Eternal because God gave us free will.
Calvinism (or reformed, I'll use calvinism) is based on 2 objectives:
1. Man is totally depraved.
2. Man does not have free will.

These 2 objectives necessarily create all of the 5 points.

When did we lose our free will?
Did we have it in the Garden?

What does Deuteronomy 30:19 mean?
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life,

Ditto for Joshua 24:15 Do we just eliminate these verses from the bible?

How about when Jesus cried over Jerusalem and said:
BUT YOU WOULD NOT COME TO ME....

Does this now show free will?

Jesus knocking at the door in Rev 3:20...
Why is He knocking? Is it through my own free will that I'm to open the door?

Does not God's Spirit have to "quicken" unregenerate man to receive the gift of faith? Ephesians 2:8.

I mean, forget election and predestination.

Saving faith comes from God.

I agree. But why do I have to be a Calvinist to believe what the bible clearly teaches?
All Christians believe faith comes from God.
The difference is that Calvinists believe that grace cannot be resisted....but scripture shows that it can.

You mentioned
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The above verses speak of 3 gifts:
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

All 3 are gifts from God. Everything good come from our Father above.
James 1:17

Grace is certainly a gift...no verses needed. God created us and He lavishes His love upon His creation....He would want that every single person be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
Then why aren't they?
Because they do not choose to accept God's conditions.

If this were not the case...then it would mean that God is not powerful enough to attain His wish!

Faith is a gift. Man sinned in the Garden and fell from his relationship with God.
There was a way back.....faith. God gave faith to mankind through which mankind could be saved.
Everyone in the OT and NT were saved by faith...
But where did faith come from? From God, of course.

Salvation is a gift: Man would not have needed salvation except for the fall. God was egregiously harmed.
But He was good enough to give to man the opportunity to become saved and restore, somewhat, what man had lost in the Garden.
This would happen through Jesus....one of the very few PREDESTINED events in the bible.

Salvation is from God, God draws men to His son, they do not come on their own accord.

God DRAWS men to His son.
Agree 100%.
Outside of Calvinist circles this is known as prevenient grace.
Just enough grace to DRAW a person to God,,,,without forcing him to accept.
We go back to free will.

God gives to each person just enough grace so that they could know about God and choose to serve Him or not.
This goes back to Romans 1:19

We would have to stop here and discuss what DRAW means.
John 6:44 NO ONE CAN COME TO JESUS UNLESS GOD DRAWS HIM

This draw means TO ATTRACT.... Greek: helku

Another Greek word for draw is: suro This means TO DRAG.

The drawing in John 6:44 is a gentle drawing from God.
FAITH COME BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

It comes by hearing...
not by irresistible grace.

When James White gets to John 6:44-45 he raises two questions: What is the nature of this drawing and how does the Father do it?6 White makes some good exegetical points7 and provides a helpful discussion about the usage of ἕλκω in John, differentiating the literal and metaphorical sense.8 However, he ultimately answers these questions by showing the inconsistencies of other interpretations, turning the explanation of the meaning of one word into a theological debate, rather than an exegetical or lexicological study. He does this when he explains the similar use of ἕλκω in John 12:32 and says “many have used this verse to attempt to blunt the force of John 6:44, hoping to find here a ‘wooing’ idea rather than the sovereign call of the Spirit of God in a person’s life.”9 He then explains why his perspective is better than other interpretations, but his explanation is already limited by a theological debate between the “wooing” position and the sovereign call of the Spirit of God10, not relying on the literary context of John or linguistic principles of study.

source: https://arcabc.ca/islandora/object/twu:829/datastream/PDF/view


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[GodsGrace]

@ElectedbyHim

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John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Right.
God gave them the right to become children of God.
TO THOSE THAT RECEIVED HIM.
TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.

What was the jailer told in Acts 16?
Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
BELIEVE.

This is an action word which is on the side of the person.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sounds good...but it only means that we are saved by God's will......
not by our own works or methods.
Any commentary or article will confirm this.
It does NOT mean that God irresistibly saves us.

The above verses says man does not have free will to choose salvation.

The Bible does have passages that man should choose.

I believe than man can only choose if God gives them the gift of faith to do so.

But if man can choose....he must be able to choose ALWAYS.
We were saved while we were yet sinners....
We were sinners when we CHOSE to believe in God and we became born again.

I study a lot of Soteriology, I do not truly believe any one person knows this paradoxical mystery of salvation.

Soteriology is my favorite subject.
What is the mystery of salvation?
It seems so clear to me....maybe it's not....

On one hand humans are responsible to come to Christ, on the other hand they cannot, God has to do the choosing.

And what do you think about the fact that God predetermines every act of man...including sinful acts...
but then makes man responsible for them?? (according to Calvin).

Does that sound like a just God to you?
Just means to give to each person what they deserve.
If it's God that makes a person sin....
how could that person possibly deserve hell?

Where is the personal responsibility in each person?

I believe Macarthur has it right.

1. Divine Sovereignty: John MacArthur emphasizes that salvation is a sovereign work of God, fully initiated and accomplished by Him. He affirms that God’s sovereignty is evident throughout Scripture, including Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and 2 Timothy 1:9.

Every Christian believes God is sovereign.
Here's the question:
How does man having a say in his salvation diminish God's sovereignty??

Seems to me that it's a very powerful God that is not fearful of giving man free will.
It's a weak and fearful God that is afraid of giving man free will.

1. Human Responsibility: MacArthur also stresses the importance of human responsibility in salvation, highlighting the need for faith and repentance. He argues that while God sovereignly chooses and saves individuals, humans must respond to the gospel message and believe in Christ.

I addressed this above.
Also....how does an individual respond to the gospel message if God has not chosen him?
Makes no sense.

1. Twin Truths: MacArthur emphasizes the parallel nature of these two truths, stating that they must be believed together. He argues that attempting to resolve the apparent paradox between divine sovereignty and human responsibility through mental gymnastics or evasion is misguided.

Elected...MacArthur puts a lot into a mystery.
God wants His creation to know how to come to salvation...
it's no mystery.

1. God’s Initiative: MacArthur emphasizes God’s initiative in salvation,

All Christians agree with the above.
God makes the first move.

1. highlighting His choice and election of individuals before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29-30). He notes that God’s sovereignty extends to every aspect of salvation, including the call to faith and the granting of spiritual gifts.

Answered above.
God DOES NOT CHOOSE who will be saved.
We could discuss Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 8:29-30 if you like.
Read those passages again....keep this in mind instead of predestinaton:
Predestination is in the bible....
It's never a WHO
It's always a
HOW or a
PURPOSE

1. Human Response: MacArthur affirms that human response to God’s initiative is necessary, but emphasizes that this response is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). He argues that the Holy Spirit generates faith and hope in Christ, making it possible for humans to respond to God’s call.

I agree!
This sounds like synergism.
How could he believe this and then post all the other beliefs on this list??

1. Practical Implications: MacArthur notes that acknowledging God’s sovereignty has profound practical implications. He warns against arrogant boasting or unnecessary worry, instead encouraging believers to rest in God’s sovereign control and goodness (Isaiah 46:10).

Agreed.

Salvation is a mystery, like knowing the Trinity and Jesus being Fully human and fully God.

I agree that the Trinity is difficult to grasp and we pretty much have to come to our own understanding of it...
but salvation is not a mystery IMO.
It's the very reason Jesus came to us....
It's what God has been trying to tell us from the beginning of Genesis.
Why would God make it be so complicated that it has to be a mystery?
Again 1 Timothy 2:4 GOD WISHES ALL TO BE SAVED.
But they won't --- because they won't accept His terms.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

@ElectedbyHim

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Right.
God gave them the right to become children of God.
TO THOSE THAT RECEIVED HIM.
TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.

What was the jailer told in Acts 16?
Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
BELIEVE.

This is an action word which is on the side of the person.


Sounds good...but it only means that we are saved by God's will......
not by our own works or methods.
Any commentary or article will confirm this.
It does NOT mean that God irresistibly saves us.


But if man can choose....he must be able to choose ALWAYS.
We were saved while we were yet sinners....
We were sinners when we CHOSE to believe in God and we became born again.

Soteriology is my favorite subject.
What is the mystery of salvation?
It seems so clear to me....maybe it's not....


And what do you think about the fact that God predetermines every act of man...including sinful acts...
but then makes man responsible for them?? (according to Calvin).

Does that sound like a just God to you?
Just means to give to each person what they deserve.
If it's God that makes a person sin....
how could that person possibly deserve hell?

Where is the personal responsibility in each person?

Every Christian believes God is sovereign.
Here's the question:
How does man having a say in his salvation diminish God's sovereignty??

Seems to me that it's a very powerful God that is not fearful of giving man free will.
It's a weak and fearful God that is afraid of giving man free will.


I addressed this above.
Also....how does an individual respond to the gospel message if God has not chosen him?
Makes no sense.


Elected...MacArthur puts a lot into a mystery.
God wants His creation to know how to come to salvation...
it's no mystery.



All Christians agree with the above.
God makes the first move.


Answered above.
God DOES NOT CHOOSE who will be saved.
We could discuss Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 8:29-30 if you like.
Read those passages again....keep this in mind instead of predestinaton:
Predestination is in the bible....
It's never a WHO
It's always a
HOW or a
PURPOSE


I agree!
This sounds like synergism.
How could he believe this and then post all the other beliefs on this list??


Agreed.

I agree that the Trinity is difficult to grasp and we pretty much have to come to our own understanding of it...
but salvation is not a mystery IMO.
It's the very reason Jesus came to us....
It's what God has been trying to tell us from the beginning of Genesis.
Why would God make it be so complicated that it has to be a mystery?
Again 1 Timothy 2:4 GOD WISHES ALL TO BE SAVED.
But they won't --- because they won't accept His terms.

The reason I believe in the 5 points is because I see it throughout Scripture, even before I knew what Calvinism was.

From experience, I never wanted anything to do with God until He chose me, when I was in the Penitentiary.

All I can say is that He changed my heart and I had nothing to do with that.

I can never walk away from Him.

Grace and peace to you.