THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Behold]

I learned this.

ONE GOD...

is...

"Let US...........make man............in OUR Image".

So..........Even you can count to 2.
Therefore... you would have to just deny the reality of that verse.......on purpose, because you just have been taught to avoid it...... is the only reason you would not want to agree.

And FYI..,,if you are never able to see this Truth, then that has no effect on Salvation... as its not required that you believe in the Trinity Doctrine, to be a Christian.
So, people who teach that you do, are the real DEEP heretics.......whereas those who can't grasp 3<>1, are just poor NT students.... nothing more.

 

[Behold]

Not a guess at all. But that's all you got, guesses. That the word became human does not make the human god for it is the word that is god.

I realize the passion for the trinity is the man-is-god thesis. However, your best guess does not reach the trinity. At best it invents 2 Gods, which contradicts Scripture, which states there is one God - and his name aint Jesus.

Jesus is the Word.

Read John 1.. including verse 14.

 

[Behold]

The expression "God with us" is common in Scripture. Never does it literally mean it is so.

When Moses was talking to the Burning Bush.....>>He asked GOD.......>>"what is your Name".

God said....>>'I am.. that I Am"..


A.) Jesus said.....>>"before Abraham was.....I AM">... so, that is the SAME GOD.., who is "the Word became Flesh"... "God manifested in the Flesh"... 1 Tim 3:16

That is John 1:14, and........that is John 1:10... and that is Colossians 1:16

 

[Wrangler]

Who was Jesus then ?

Do you believe in Jesus?

<sigh> Yes, of course I believe in Jesus! The false dilemma of trinitarians is to say if you do not believe in the trinity, then you cannot be a Christ follower. Untrue.

Here are the ABC's and 123's. NOTE: In blue is the specific answer to your question. These ABC’s (OT) and 123’s (NT) will easily demonstrate the monotheist text of Scripture, the perspective through which one ought to view trinitarians vain attempt to impose their tri-une eisegesis interpretation.

Consider the emphatic way God communicated to Moses, by putting his commands in stone. This represents the ultimate way of clear communication in all of human history. By contrast, trinitarian’s sad attempt to read contradictory doctrine into monotheist text ridiculous and cannot hold up to scrutiny. This is why they disregard what follows.

ABC’s (OT)

• Only YHWH is God.
  • Deut 6:4 (NOG). Listen, Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim. Yahweh is the only God.
• YHWH is God’s only and eternal name – for all generations.
  • Ex 3:15 (NLT). Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my eternal name,
  • my name to remember for all generations.
• 1C, You shall have no other gods but YHWH – including the trinity god.
  • Ex 20:3 (NLT) You must not have any other god but me.

123’s (NT)

• All the Gospels proclaim Jesus is God’s Anointed. None claim Jesus is YHWH incarnate.
  • Matthew 1:1 (VOICE) This is the family history, the genealogy, of Jesus the Anointed, the coming King.
  • Mark 1:1 (VOICE). This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
  • Luke 1:4 I want you to know that you can fully rely on the things you have been taught about Jesus, God’s Anointed One.
  • John 20:31 (VOICE). These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.
• God made Jesus and gave Jesus authority – but not over God, Himself.
  • Acts 2:36 (CEV). God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ
  • 1 Corinthians 15:27 “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.
• Jesus has a God, who we relate to as Father, who is the only true God.
  • John 17:1-3 (NLT) Father … And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God.
  • John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
• The resurrected Jesus, sitting on God’s throne in heaven is STILL not God.
  • Rev 1:1 (NLT). This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him.
  • Rev 3:12. Jesus invokes his God 4 times in 1 sentence.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the Word.

No text in Scripture says this. Certainly not in John's prologue.

 

[Behold]

No text in Scripture says this. Certainly not in John's prologue.

John 1:14​

​

14 The Word became flesh and made.... HIS..... dwelling among us. We have seen HIS glory,​

​

​

This is John 1... "and the WORD was God".​

​

This is John 1:10......."And the WORLD was made by HIM..​

​

So, you are just wanting to argue, and dont really care about anything else, as this is your pet argument, on any forum you waste time joining.​

You are always this one.​

 

[St. SteVen]

The expression "God with us" is common in Scripture. Never does it literally mean it is so.

Really?
The expression "God with us" never means "God with us"? Where is the logic in that?

Not only do you deny the deity of Christ, you also deny the person of the Holy Spirit, correct?

These scriptures refer to the Spirit as a He.

John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—
the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine.
That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


[

 

[Wrangler]

Compare and contrast why each side holds their doctrine important. The best answer I get from trinitarians is to not believe it is to not respect Jesus for who he really is. Again, if this were important, it would be in Scripture's 66 books. By contrast, the importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be overstated for 3 basic reasons:

1. Jesus is our ONLY mediator between us and God.
2. Jesus resurrection is the first fruit, meaning like to follow.
3. The wages of sin are only half paid. Trinitarianism denies our sins have been paid by the TOTAL sacrifice and death of the Son of God.

Trinitarians attempt to get around this by embracing dualism, which requires the abdication of logic; that he is this AND God. If Jesus were God, it means his resurrection is NOT the proof, our guarantee of like to follow, we have no mediator and we still owe the wages of our sin.

 

[St. SteVen]

Behold said:
Jesus is the Word.

No text in Scripture says this. Certainly not in John's prologue.

Seriously?
Who was this person that became flesh? (indicates that he wasn't flesh prior) Explain.

John 1:14 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[

 

[Behold]

means his resurrection is NOT the proof, our guarantee of like to follow, we have no mediator and we still owe the wages of our sin.

If Christ's Blood Atonement is not eternal, then Salvation is useless.

The Good News...

"Jesus is the ONE TIME..........ETERNAL....................Sacrifice for sin(s)", because GOD..."Hath made JESUS... to BE SIN...........for US">..

Let me translate that ... from 250 Fake Bibles that confuse it.

Jesus as our sin bearer : is the UNIVERSAL offer of Eternal Sacrifice for the sin of the world....that is imputed to each BELIEVER...as "the Gift of Salvation.

This is : 2 Corin 5:19 (explained).

 

[Behold]

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.


[

Thomas, the Apostle, when He saw Christ, resurrected for the 1st Time..........He kneeled before His Lord and said..."My Lord and MY GOD".....

So, that seems to be the 1st time a believer in the Trinity, spoke about it, who wasn't Jesus Himself, or John., or Genesis.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank you. I have studied it in depth. The more I studied it, the more absurd trinitarianism is revealed to be. That's the nature of IDOLATRY, isn't it?

More recently, I delved into the ubiquitous IDOLATRY in Christendom. (As a child, I thought idolatry was limited to statues. As I understood the 2nd Commandment better, I realize it is any manmade thing, including doctrine.) Next to the trinity, the biggest doctrinal IDOL in Christendom is the notion of burning in hell forever (ECT, eternal conscious torment). Looking at it from the outside, it is amazing how passionately people believe what the Bible does not teach.

Idolatry? Aimed at Trinitarians. That seems pretty heavy-handed.
I can see why this was a forbidden topic for so long.

Who is the lamb of God?
And why did he receive worship in the Revelation?

Revelation 5:13 NIV
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

[

 

[Ritajanice]

<sigh> Yes, of course I believe in Jesus! The false dilemma of trinitarians is to say if you do not believe in the trinity, then you cannot be a Christ follower. Untru

It was only a question , sorry it made you sigh..i agree with your post...I became Born Again I have no understanding of the Trinity..but I have to say.,the Spirit has witnessed to my spirit , that Jesus walked the earth and was crucified so that we can receive the Holy Spirit and become Born Again, he has also witnessed that God is an almighty Living Spirit, I can never deny that..neither can I prove it, but, what he witnessed to my spirit does line up with the written word,,,would that make me a Trinitarian ?

How was Jesus Born, what’s your understanding on that?

What about the Holy Spirit, do you believe in the spiritual rebirth?

Edited my post @Wrangler .

 

[Wrangler]

Really?
The expression "God with us" never means "God with us"? Where is the logic in that?

That's not what I said. You cannot play fast and loose, intermixing literal and figurative language. The expression means blessing. Consider Jesus reading Isaiah 61:1-2
61 The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to ... proclaim the year of the LORD's favor,

The only reason the Spirit of the LORD God is upon Jesus is precisely because he is not God. "The year of the LORD's favor" is not Jesus' favor. How God is with us is because we live in this figurative year, this age of the favor of Jesus' God.

Jesus is called the Messiah, which is Hebrew meaning Christ in Greek. In English, this means anointed. Who anointed Jesus? His God, the LORD God. If Jesus were God incarnate, he would not be the LORD God's anointed, would not be the Christ, would not be the Messiah. Jesus is not God but sent by God. If Jesus were God then who was sent and anointed by the LORD God?

 

[David in NJ]

I'm with you on the origins of the doctrine. The march of Christianity outward from Palestine into the Greek world inevitably resulted in a cultural and philosophical disconnect, as tales told and texts written from a Jewish/messianic perspective were being interpreted by men imbued in a Greek philosophical tradition. Those few scattered passages in the emerging NT canon that could arguably be deemed binitarian or (far less frequently) trinitarian yielded no coherent picture of the Son’s participation in the Godhead, and two centuries of patristic thinking were occupied by the effort to weave that idea into a doctrine that was consistent with Scripture. It was thus natural that Greek philosophy, which had long sought to locate an ontological bridge between the One and the Many, between the realm of soul/spirit and the material world, would provide the looms for this tapestry.

Particularly in Alexandria, Christianity was discovering its affinity with middle Platonism and using it as a lens through which to view Christian concepts, furnishing the early church fathers with a template for reworking Jewish monotheism into a trinitarianism that could successfully resist devolving into tritheism. I happen to think the effort was indeed successful.

Evidence A - John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Here in John 1:1-5 there are TWO Distinct Individuals = God and the Word
The TWO Distinct Individuals are of the SAME Identity and BEING = 'God'
Only One of the TWO are denoted as "the only begotten Son of God"

Therefore One of the TWO is the FATHER and the Second of the TWO is the SON

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

Just as the FATHER is full of Grace and Truth so also is the Son for they are ECHAD Elohim.

 

[Wrangler]

I have no understanding of the Trinity

I've heard many pastors say no one can understand the trinity, let alone explain it. If true, no responsible person has any business advocating as true something they cannot even understand.

Don't take it as a mark against your intellect. Nonsense is not understandable. Square circles are nonsense.

would that make me a Trinitarian ?

The indoctrination is you cannot be saved unless you accept the trinity. That drives people out of fear, not understanding. And that goes back to my softball question. Scripture says all glory to God, not share it with his servant Jesus.

This is not how language is used. We don't call someone a servant if they are actually the master. Trinitarianism just piles nonsense on top of nonsense.

 

[RedFan]

Here in John 1:1-5 there are TWO Distinct Individuals = God and the Word
The TWO Distinct Individuals are of the SAME Identity and BEING = 'God'

You do see the logical inconsistency here, don't you? ONE God yet TWO distinct "individuals"? How do you explain that? Modalism? Something else?

 

[Behold]

61 The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to ... proclaim the year of the LORD's favor,

Your verse is explaining that there is a "baptism" with the Spirit, that is an anointing for Ministry.

"God CALLED some to be ... Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Pastors, and Evangelists"..

See that?.. that is "upon them".. is that Baptism anointing for MINISTRY.

Notice that Jesus's Baptism, came UPON Him........vs, in Him...., and the reason that the verse does not say the Dove came down to be "in Him" ...is because.

"Christ" IS That Spirit".. "the Lord is THAT Spirit"........ 2 Corin 3:17 ... Paul teaches.

And that is the same as... "God is A Spirit"..

And that is why God breathed the SPIRIT into ADAM, and Jesus gave the HOLY SPIRIT to the Apostles in John 20:22.

See, only GOD can give the Spirit.....and They DID.

Its JESUS who sent down the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2...because only GOD can do that.... and they Did.

 

[Ritajanice]

The indoctrination is you cannot be saved unless you accept the trinity

Absolute hogwash, Brother..I was Born Again..no knowledge of the trinity whatsoever..I rebuke their ridiculous claims that you aren’t Born Again ,if you don’t believe in the trinity

 

[Johann]

When anyone speaks against Elohim, they are denying the FATHER, the WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT as Declared in Scripture.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].

J.