How to be : Sinless Forever

[Eternally Grateful]

We're not justified by faith alone (James 2:24 & 26. This idea that 'I must obey but be careful that I'm not doing it to maintain salvation' is illogical. If Jesus tells us to obey, and we obey him because we believe his words, then it is automatically by faith.

Actually Paul says otherwise. as Does Jesus.

James is speaking of being justified before men. James said show ME (a man) your faith. and I will show you (other men) my faith.

James did not contradict Paul.

We are justified by faith alone, But faith is never alone. how can you test your faith? Do you have works.

God did not tell me to be a fruit inspector to see if your saved or not.

The line of thinking you've presented to me is exactly why I left Protestantism.

Well sadly. you walked right into legalism. and are no different than the jew paul spent most of the NT trying to change their thinking

 

[Behold]

If you have no faith. your still condemned.

When we first trust in Christ, .. God sees our FAITH... in our heart, and accepts it.

So, that is forever completed.

If later, you have some crisis of faith, then God has accepted your faith already, which is why a person is already born again.

A faith crisis later, can't affect spiritual birth that is already happened.

and in faith we too looked up to him, and were saved

And now being saved, its completed.
We are not partially saved, or somewhat born again.

So, if later we lose our faith, we have not lost our salvation, as we already have that, if we are born again.

Philippians 1:6..

"God who began salvation is all the born again.. will HIMSELF.. be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT"...

2 Timothy 2:13​

​

13 ' if we are faithless, God remains faithful—for God cannot deny himself."​

 

[FearTheLord]

Actually Paul says otherwise. as Does Jesus.

James is speaking of being justified before men. James said show ME (a man) your faith. and I will show you (other men) my faith.

James did not contradict Paul.

We are justified by faith alone, But faith is never alone. how can you test your faith? Do you have works.

God did not tell me to be a fruit inspector to see if your saved or not.

Well sadly. you walked right into legalism. and are no different than the jew paul spent most of the NT trying to change their thinking

Paul did not teach justification by faith alone. He taught justification by faith apart from the works of the Law of Moses (Rom 3:28). If we just acknowledge that fact, then there is no longer a need to reinterpret James 2 as you have. Take it at face value.

If faith is never alone, then it's not Faith Alone.

Jesus and the apostles told us all to be fruit inspectors.

[Mat 7:15-20 NASB95] 15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

[Jas 3:9-12 NASB95] 9 With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh.

[Gal 5:19-21 NASB95] 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[1Co 5:12-13 NASB95] 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within [the church?] 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

[2Co 13:5 NASB95] 5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

[1Jo 3:18-19 NASB95] 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him

[1Jo 3:24 NASB95] 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

I woke up. I hope you do too.

 

[Behold]

Paul did not teach justification by faith alone.

Paul did teach "Justification by faith alone".

Its James who has a verse that is often misrepresented as "not by faith alone".

its Paul who said that Abraham is the "father of our Faith" and there was no Moses LAW, when Abraham was "Justified by faith".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul did not teach justification by faith alone. He taught justification by faith apart from the works of the Law of Moses (Rom 3:28). If we just acknowledge that fact, then there is no longer a need to reinterpret James 2 as you have. Take it at face value.

This is not true

eph 2 - we are saved by GRACE period. through faith. not of works lest anyone should boast.

titus 3. Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) but by his mercy he saved us.

don;t fall for the legalistic lie that says your works save you while someone elses do not.

The penalty of sin is death, Not keeping the sabbath, getting baptized or going to church.. those works are good deeds, but they will nto save you.

many will say on that day they did all these great works. jesus will tell them to depart he never knew them

If faith is never alone, then it's not Faith Alone.

There is no such thing as faith alone

You do not say you trust someone, yet never do a thing they say. if you claim you have faith yet never do anything they ask. then your faith is not real. it is non existent, thats what james was tryign to tell these people who were hearers not doers.

Jesus and the apostles told us all to be fruit inspectors.

[Mat 7:15-20 NASB95] 15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

[Jas 3:9-12 NASB95] 9 With it we bless [our] Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come [both] blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter [water?] 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor [can] salt water produce fresh.

[Gal 5:19-21 NASB95] 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[1Co 5:12-13 NASB95] 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within [the church?] 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

[2Co 13:5 NASB95] 5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

[1Jo 3:18-19 NASB95] 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him

[1Jo 3:24 NASB95] 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

Um no. Because many people do many great works, it does not mean they are saved. The pharisees kept the law better than anyone, yet they were just as lost as people who did not keep the law at all..

I woke up. I hope you do too.

You fell back asleep. i do not know what church you came from, but you went backwards from what I am seeing

 

[FearTheLord]

Paul did teach "Justification by faith alone".

Its James who has a verse that is often misrepresented as "not by faith alone".

its Paul who said that Abraham is the "father of our Faith" and there was no Moses LAW, when Abraham was "Justified by faith".

That just means Abraham was justified apart from the Law of Moses, as Paul explained in Romans 3:28, but Abraham did have works, and it was a part of his justification (James 2).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When we first trust in Christ, .. God sees our FAITH... in our heart, and accepts it.

So, that is forever completed.

If later, you have some crisis of faith, then God has accepted your faith already, which is why a person is already born again.

A faith crisis later, can't affect spiritual birth that is already happened.

so they can lose salvation, lose their new birth lose their adoption?

I am sorry but I reject this notion

And now being saved, its completed.
We are not partially saved, or somewhat born again.

So, if later we lose our faith, we have not lost our salvation, as we already have that, if we are born again.

Philippians 1:6..

"God who began salvation is all the born again.. will HIMSELF.. be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT"...

2 Timothy 2:13​

​

13 ' if we are faithless, God remains faithful—for God cannot deny himself."​

Yes, Salvation is complete..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That just means Abraham was justified apart from the Law of Moses, as Paul explained in Romans 3:28, but Abraham did have works, and it was a part of his justification (James 2).

There was no law of moses when abraham was saved,

He was saved because he believed God in gen 15 I think it is.

later (many years later) he proved his faith by offering his son. which means he justified his own faith in front of man, for himself.

But he was saved in Gen 15 before he did one work.

 

[quietthinker]

How to be : Sinless Forever​

We have lots of examples of those who do not sin....go to any graveyard!

 

[FearTheLord]

There was no law of moses when abraham was saved,

Yeah. That was Paul's point in Romans 3:28, but Abraham still has works.

He was saved because he believed God in gen 15 I think it is.

later (many years later) he proved his faith by offering his son. which means he justified his own faith in front of man, for himself.

But he was saved in Gen 15 before he did one work.

Offering up his son was not Abraham's only work. He left his father's house when God told him to leave. He sent Hagar and Ishmael away when God instructed him to do so.

God said that Abraham obeyed him.

[Gen 26:5 NASB95] 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah. That was Paul's point in Romans 3:28, but Abraham still has works.

yes he did, nit they had absolutely nothing to do with his eternal justification.

PS.He also had a lot of sins after he was imputed righteous based on his faith..

Offering up his son was not Abraham's only work. He left his father's house when God told him to leave. He sent Hagar and Ishmael away when God instructed him to do so.

God said that Abraham obeyed him.

[Gen 26:5 NASB95] 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."​

I am just going to James. The work James spoke of happened decades after he was justified by faith.

 

[FearTheLord]

PS.He also had a lot of sins after he was imputed righteous based on his faith..

Both Genesis 26 and Romans 4 state that Abraham only grew stronger in the faith with regards to the promises of God. He did not waver in unbelief. I understand that a lot of Christians don't like some of Abraham's actions. He lived in a very different world, but the Bible did not disclose any of Abraham's sins if he even had any after leaving his father's house.

If we take the Bible at its word, Abraham did not sin after leaving his father's house. I don't care how unpopular that opinion may be, it's supported by the scriptures.

 

[quietthinker]

Both Genesis 26 and Romans 4 state that Abraham only grew stronger in the faith with regards to the promises of God. He did not waver in unbelief. I understand that a lot of Christians don't like some of Abraham's actions. He lived in a very different world, but the Bible did not disclose any of Abraham's sins if he even had any after leaving his father's house.

If we take the Bible at its word, Abraham did not sin after leaving his father's house. I don't care how unpopular that opinion may be, it's supported by the scriptures.

I see you are unfamiliar with Abraham's story/ history

 

[FearTheLord]

I see you are unfamiliar with Abraham's story/ history

No. I'm quite familiar with it. It's patristic Christianity that interprets it contrary to the scriptures..

 

[quietthinker]

No. I'm quite familiar with it. It's patristic Christianity that interprets it contrary to the scriptures..

So you don't think he lied to the king of Egypt and Abimelech concerning his beautiful wife?

 

[FearTheLord]

So you don't think he lied to the king of Egypt and Abimelech concerning his beautiful wife?

Abraham lied to protect his own life. Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies. David pretended to be crazy to protect his own life. David even lied to the priest to gain access to the holy bread from the sanctuary as he fled Saul. The priest was later killed because that, but Jesus said he was justified in eating the holy bread.

None of those things were ever considered sin in either the Old or New Testaments.

So what pop Christianity and the Bible say are two very different things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Both Genesis 26 and Romans 4 state that Abraham only grew stronger in the faith with regards to the promises of God. He did not waver in unbelief. I understand that a lot of Christians don't like some of Abraham's actions. He lived in a very different world, but the Bible did not disclose any of Abraham's sins if he even had any after leaving his father's house.

The fact is he still sinned.

I love when a legalist tries to claim Abraham was so righteous, and when someone brings up abrahams sins they try to just not acknowledge them or push it away as if it is nothing.

If we take the Bible at its word, Abraham did not sin after leaving his father's house. I don't care how unpopular that opinion may be, it's supported by the scriptures.

yet he committed adultry with his maid. he lied to a king and said his wife was his sister out of fear. he laughed at God. He did many things.

come on man,

I bet you excuse your own sin also don;t you?

 

[FearTheLord]

The fact is he still sinned.

I love when a legalist tries to claim Abraham was so righteous, and when someone brings up abrahams sins they try to just not acknowledge them or push it away as if it is nothing.

I've already shown you the scriptures which say that this was not the case, at least not since he followed God's command to leave his father's house.

I thought you said you believed all of God's word. Apparently that was a lie.

yet he committed adultry with his maid. he lied to a king and said his wife was his sister out of fear. he laughed at God. He did many things.

Hagar was Abraham's female slave. It was not adultery to sleep with her. Men were allowed to have multiple wives, concubines, and female slaves, with whom they could procreate. This was true in Abraham's day, and even under the Law of Moses. The Law even made provisions for such cases.

And lying is not always a sin. Abraham lied to protect his own life. Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies. David feigned insanity to protect his own life.

David even lied to the priest so that he could eat the holy bread from the sanctuary as he fled from Saul. He told the priest that he was on a special mission from the king. Saul later had the priest executed in a fit of rage, but Jesus said that David was justified.

So are you now going to tell me, "the legalist", that the Bible and even Jesus are wrong? Why? Just so you can continue to make excuses for your unwillingness to stop sinning??? Who's the real legalist here? The one showing that righteous obedience is not that difficult, or the one grasping at straws to make the standard seem so ridiculously unattainable in an attempt to excuse their own failures?

It really is an unwillingness to exercise faith, because at this point you're refusing to believe what is written in the scriptures. So you'll never be able to stop sinning if you're constantly undermining your own faith.

Come on, man...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've already shown you the scriptures which say that this was not the case, at least not since he followed God's command to leave his father's house.

I thought you said you believed all of God's word. Apparently that was a lie.

lol, I do believe Gods words

Abrahams sins are told to us by Gods word.

I guess you do not believe Gods word

Hagar was Abraham's female slave. It was not adultery to sleep with her.

According to God it is.

Men were allowed to have multiple wives, concubines, and female slaves, with whom they could procreate. This was true in Abraham's day, and even under the Law of Moses. The Law even made provisions for such cases.

So let’s excuse our sins.. lol. Whatever dude. You’re exposing yourself.

And lying is not always a sin. Abraham lied to protect his own life. Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies. David feigned insanity to protect his own life.

Abraham Had Gods promise. That they would have a child. if Abraham had great faith, he knew he would not have to lie. Because God would not allow anythign to happen. He would keep his promise.

notice the difference in abrahams faith then as compared to when he offered his own son.

David even lied to the priest so that he could eat the holy bread from the sanctuary as he fled from Saul. He told the priest that he was on a special mission from the king. Saul later had the priest executed in a fit of rage, but Jesus said that David was justified.

David also commited adultry and murder.

So are you now going to tell me, "the legalist", that the Bible and even Jesus are wrong?

No. You are wrong.

Why? Just so you can continue to make excuses for your unwillingness to stop sinning???

lol. Well first you do not know me.
2nd I do not go out and practice e sin, nor have i excused any of my sins, Like you are doing here.

Who's the real legalist here? The one showing that righteous obedience is not that difficult, or the one grasping at straws to make the standard seem so ridiculously unattainable in an attempt to excuse their own failures?

lol. I am not pumping my chest saying how great I am and thinking I can earn my way to heaven

It really is an unwillingness to exercise faith, because at this point you're refusing to believe what is written in the scriptures. So you'll never be able to stop sinning if you're constantly undermining your own faith.

lol. What a joke. I acknowledge the word. You’re the one who denies the word. here you are excusing people sin, doing the very thing I said you would do. Then attacking me,, lol what a joke

Come on, man...

Where we going?

I know I will not follow you.. I will continue to follow God

 

[Verily]

Between Paul and James they both use the word vain in the context of examining the faith or the receiving of the grace of God as it pertains to works in a couple of places

For example,

Paul says not to receive the grace of God "in vain"

2 Cr 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Whereas James is adressing the O vain man

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Paul had previously told them that the grace bestowed upon him was not in vain (for behold, he labored more than them all)

1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Paul tells us in Romans that it is by Jesus Christ we ourselves have access by this faith into this grace wherein we stand (and by the same grace Paul said he laboured)

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith without works being dead has to be receiving the grace of God in vain since its by faith we have access into this grace by which Paul did his works. The grace of God with Paul was not in vain as was evident by what grace could do even in his labouring more abundantly than them all. Yet not Paul but the grace of God that was with Paul.

On the otherhand James directs his speaking to the "O Vain man" on the basis of a faith without works (non effectual grace) that is alone seeing they both work together (faith/acces grace/works). The absence of the latter could possibly indicate (even in James case, the taking the grace of God in vain) considering what Paul tells us. Since we are created in Christ unto good works but not saved by them. I am bad at wording things but maybe it has more to do with those things between the James and Paul there.

Maybe the word "vain" might be key factor here, considering Paul does speak of receiving the grace of God (by which he laboured) "in vain". And James speaking to the "O Vain man" more specifically since by the faith we have access into this grace the works are done by (if not received in vain). As Paul said, I laboured (yet not I) but the grace of God that was with me (and not bestowed upon him in vain). Speaking of the effectual working (grace) in "the measure" as each has received a measure (or rather each a "measure of" faith).
So again it's by this faith we have access into the effectual grace wherein we stand (and whereby Paul laboured) and Paul's faith was alive and active through the grace of God.

Edit: I edited a couple of sentences there