WOMEN ARE TO KEEP SILENT IN THE CHURCH

[TLHKAJ]

[1Ti 2:12 KJV] 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

How does this fit with the fact that Priscilla taught Apollos in the ways of God alongside her husband Aquila in their house church ...and that Paul named her as a co-laborer in the Lord?

Y'all need to seek the Lord on how to rightly divided the Word of God rather than discounting certain details that don't fit your preferred interpretation.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Paul was very specific in his instruction, and It was private, NOT public teaching done in a church of believers during a church service.

Lol ...churches were in homes back then. They didn't have formal buildings called "public churches." They went from house to house because they met and held services in homes, which is what Priscilla and Aquila did.

 

[Scott Downey]

Lol ...churches were in homes back then. They didn't have formal buildings called "public churches." They went from house to house because they met and held services in homes, which is what Priscilla and Aquila did.

You keep rejecting the word here.
Even if it was in a home, it was the public who came in there for a public church service, they came together to meet from outside the home.
The whole church from outside would come into a building, sometimes the building was a home, so what!

And even unbelievers could be present in church

Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers​

20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

21 In the law it is written:

“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are [f]out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 [g]And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

 

[3 Resurrections]

How so then this instruction from Paul to Timothy for the church again saying Paul does not permit women to speak in church but to remain silent?

The Greek word Paul used in 1 Timothy 2:11 did not mean utter silence of speech. The Greek word Paul used there was "hesychia", which means a spirit of calm with peaceful behavior. Women in that Ephesian church (in a city extremely devoted to the goddess Diana) were acting disruptive and abusive of men. Neither women nor men are to act in this "authentein" way towards one another in God's church.

As for this "hesychia" Greek term, Paul once instructed all believers to "study to be quiet (hesychia) and to do your own work". If Paul in 1 Timothy 2:11 had intended women to remain speechless, he would have used the Greek word "sige" (as in Revelation 8:1 when there was silence - "sige" - in heaven for half an hour).

In 1 Cor. 14:34-35, it was not Paul who was forbidding women to speak in church. This was the deluded statement Paul was quoting from an excerpt of the Corinthian church's own letter to him ("Concerning the things which ye wrote unto me..." - 1 Cor. 7:1). Paul corrected that misguided idea by telling those Corinthian church men to "FORBID NOT to speak in tongues". It is impossible for Paul to have first issued a directive in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 forbidding women to speak in the church, and then turn around 180 degrees by saying the exact opposite just a couple verses later in 1 Cor. 14:39.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Greek word Paul used in 1 Timothy 2:11 did not mean utter silence of speech. The Greek word Paul used there was "hesychia", which means a spirit of calm with peaceful behavior. Women in that Ephesian church (in a city extremely devoted to the goddess Diana) were acting disruptive and abusive of men. Neither women nor men are to act in this "authentein" way towards one another in God's church.

As for this "hesychia" Greek term, Paul once instructed all believers to "study to be quiet (hesychia) and to do your own work". If Paul in 1 Timothy 2:11 had intended women to remain speechless, he would have used the Greek word "sige" (as in Revelation 8:1 when there was silence - "sige" - in heaven for half an hour).

In 1 Cor. 14:34-35, it was not Paul who was forbidding women to speak in church. This was the deluded statement Paul was quoting from an excerpt of the Corinthian church's own letter to him ("Concerning the things which ye wrote unto me..." - 1 Cor. 7:1). Paul corrected that misguided idea by telling those Corinthian church men to "FORBID NOT to speak in tongues". It is impossible for Paul to have first issued a directive in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 forbidding women to speak in the church, and then turn around 180 degrees by saying the exact opposite just a couple verses later in 1 Cor. 14:39.

However, you are still ignoring that Paul says the same thing to Timothy as to instruction for the church.

I never said it was total silence for women, the silence had conditions placed on it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 [g]And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Do you notice the blessed results of "ALL" - repeat "ALL" prophesying in the church? There is no limit to only males prophesying inside the church assembly. Women were being encouraged to do the same. In fact, Paul gave the stipulations of just what manner that was to be done by women in the church assembly.

 

[3 Resurrections]

However, you are still ignoring that Paul says the same thing to Timothy as to instruction for the church.

I never said it was total silence for women, the silence had conditions placed on it.

No, I am not ignoring Paul's directive for the Ephesian women to calm down in the way those Ephesian church women were behaving at the time. The Greek word "hesychia" does not mean "silence" It means "quietness" - or a peaceful manner. Like King David once said of himself. "I have behaved and quieted myself as a child that is weaned of its mother. My soul is even as a weaned child." (Psalms 131:2).

It is the Greek word "sige" that indicates silence of speech, and Paul does NOT use that word in 1 Timothy 2:11 when reproving the behavior of those Ephesian church women.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Greek word Paul used in 1 Timothy 2:11 did not mean utter silence of speech. The Greek word Paul used there was "hesychia", which means a spirit of calm with peaceful behavior. Women in that Ephesian church (in a city extremely devoted to the goddess Diana) were acting disruptive and abusive of men. Neither women nor men are to act in this "authentein" way towards one another in God's church.

As for this "hesychia" Greek term, Paul once instructed all believers to "study to be quiet (hesychia) and to do your own work". If Paul in 1 Timothy 2:11 had intended women to remain speechless, he would have used the Greek word "sige" (as in Revelation 8:1 when there was silence - "sige" - in heaven for half an hour).

In 1 Cor. 14:34-35, it was not Paul who was forbidding women to speak in church. This was the deluded statement Paul was quoting from an excerpt of the Corinthian church's own letter to him ("Concerning the things which ye wrote unto me..." - 1 Cor. 7:1). Paul corrected that misguided idea by telling those Corinthian church men to "FORBID NOT to speak in tongues". It is impossible for Paul to have first issued a directive in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 forbidding women to speak in the church, and then turn around 180 degrees by saying the exact opposite just a couple verses later in 1 Cor. 14:39.

Paul said they were to learn in silence and not speak, and if they had questions, women to ask their husbands at home, not during the church service.
They were also not to teach or have authority over men.

Since it has to do with 'learning' then it has to do with hearing the teaching, as in from a teacher in church.
You keep refusing the clear word here. It is not a total zip your lip silence that Paul is teaching, as in enter church building and shut up.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul said they were to learn in silence and not speak, and if they had questions, women to ask their husbands at home, not during the church service.

NO. That was NOT PAUL'S statement in 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Paul was QUOTING a portion of the Corinthian men's letter to himself. And he immediately reacted in shock and disgust in 1 Cor. 14:36. "WHAT? Came the word of God out from you?" (The word of God had not been authored by those Corinthian men.) "...or came it unto you only?" (The Word of God had not been delivered only to the men, but the Holy Spirit had been poured out on ALL flesh at that point, with both male and female speaking in tongues and prophesying in the church for the edification of all.)

There is a reason why the outer temple veil was torn at Christ's crucifixion, allowing access to all (both men and women included) into the holy place. We need no priest for access to God's presence anymore, since Christ is our Great High Priest, and all believers share priesthood access to God's presence through Him. These are New Covenant realities with the New Heavens and the New Earth now in place.

They were also not to teach or have authority over men.

The word Paul used there is "authentein", which means an abusive leadership of others. Neither women NOR MEN are to act in this way towards one another in God's assembly as they teach. Paul gave us the method which ALL are to use when instructing those who oppose themselves with false doctrines. "In meekness" is the stipulated method (2 Timothy 2:25). The direct opposite of "authentein". The only authority involved in anybody teaching is that of the scripture content itself, and the One who authored them. And we are ALL to act like the noble Bereans to check that teaching daily, to see whether it agrees with the scriptures themselves or not.

 

[Scott Downey]

NO. That was NOT PAUL'S statement in 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Paul was QUOTING a portion of the Corinthian men's letter to himself. And he immediately reacted in shock and disgust in 1 Cor. 14:36. "WHAT? Came the word of God out from you?" (The word of God had not been authored by those Corinthian men.) "...or came it unto you only?" (The Word of God had not been delivered only to the men, but the Holy Spirit had been poured out on ALL flesh at that point, with both male and female speaking in tongues and prophesying in the church for the edification of all.)

There is a reason why the outer temple veil was torn at Christ's crucifixion, allowing access to all (both men and women included) into the holy place. We need no priest for access to God's presence anymore, since Christ is our Great High Priest, and all believers share priesthood access to God's presence through Him. These are New Covenant realities with the New Heavens and the New Earth now in place.


The word Paul used there is "authentein", which means an abusive leadership of others. Neither women NOR MEN are to act in this way towards one another in God's assembly as they teach. Paul gave us the method which ALL are to use when instructing those who oppose themselves with false doctrines. "In meekness" is the stipulated method (2 Timothy 2:25). The direct opposite of "authentein". The only authority involved in anybody teaching is that of the scripture content itself, and the One who authored them. And we are ALL to act like the noble Bereans to check that teaching daily, to see whether it agrees with the scriptures themselves or not.

So what exactly do you believe?
Women are allowed to preach and teach in churches during a church service when the church comes together? Yes or No.
And have authority over men? Yes or No.
Allowed to ask questions of a preacher during the preaching message? Yes or No.

 

[TLHKAJ]

@3 Resurrections
What you've written makes so much sense of scriptures and places where there seems to be opposite messages. Now, it makes total sense! It takes a woman to expound on these things because of necessity... we have been religiously suppressed and abused for so long, we have had to step away and look to God and His Word for ourselves and allow Holy Spirit to teach.

 

[Scott Downey]

@3 Resurrections
What you've written makes so much sense of scriptures and places where there seems to be opposite messages. Now, it makes total sense! It takes a woman to expound on these things because of necessity... we have been religiously suppressed and abused for so long, we have had to step away and look to God and His Word for ourselves and allow Holy Spirit to teach.

I will ask you the same thing

So what exactly do you believe?
Women are allowed to preach and teach in churches during a church service when the church comes together? Yes or No.
And have authority over men? Yes or No.
Allowed to ask questions of a preacher during the preaching message? Yes or No.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So what exactly do you believe?

I believe exactly what scripture tells women they are allowed to do in the assembly and in the leadership ministry among them, and the method in which that was to be done. ALL were being permitted to speak, one at a time, and a maximum of two or three prophets speaking per meeting so as to be edifying and not overwhelming to the assembly. With all members submitting in deference to each other if God has revealed something to someone that needs to be voiced to the entire congregation for their edification, with the others judging that revelation.

As in 1 Cor. 14:26-31, "For ye may ALL prophesy one by one" (women or men), "that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted." (Both men and women learning from other men and women.)

And have authority over men? Yes or No.

God has NOT granted "authority" to anyone over the church - either men or women. The only true authority is Christ Jesus and the scriptures. HE is "the head over all things to the church". And "no one can serve two masters".

The leaders (joint men and women) ministering to that church family unit serve as "examples to the flock" - not "lords over God's heritage". God will not give His glory to another. The church has developed into something resembling a corporate business structure instead of the ministry that God designed it to be. The church has gotten way too big for its britches.

Allowed to ask questions of a preacher during the preaching message? Yes or No.

Scripture does not forbid questions from anyone during an assembly. It was only the Corinthian men in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 who were following the "vain traditions" of the Jewish ORAL LAW at the time. These traditions led to the Corinthian men thinking that women could not voice a question in the assembly. You should look up just how the rabbis twisted the law and invented rules which neither their fathers nor themselves could bear. Their squashing of women in regard to worship had become something that was revolting to Christ.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I will ask you the same thing

So what exactly do you believe?
Women are allowed to preach and teach in churches during a church service when the church comes together? Yes or No.
And have authority over men? Yes or No.
Allowed to ask questions of a preacher during the preaching message? Yes or No.

1. Yes (based on examples in scripture, espec Priscilla and Aquila)
2. God-given authority, yes ....abusive, prideful lording over a man, no. (Which also men should not do to women.)
3. A (male OR female) preacher is preaching a message, hopefully, that was given to them by Holy Spirit. It would be out of order to interrupt. But there are some settings where it is more like a group discussion with one person "leading" ...there, it is permitted that anyone (male OR female) can participate in discussion ...but again, there should be order.

1 Corinthians 14:40
[40]Let all things be done decently and in order.

I do believe that a woman's husband is her head ...and yet, we have a lot of imbalanced teaching in that area as well. A husband is not to use his headship as a license to belittle, abuse, disrespect, dishonor, silence, or control his wife.

 

[Grailhunter]

So you and I agree….no restrictions on Christian women.

That's unscriptural.

Jesus also did not have any women disciples or any women apostles.
And there were no major OT prophets that were women.
Miriam who prophesied, joined in the rebellion against Moses
Saul the king also prophesied but killed the Lord's priests and troubled the people of Israel and he was rejected by God, as did Baalam who taught Israel to commit sexual immorality, so just because there were 'mad prophets' does not mean they were approved of God.

Number 12
1 Miriam and Aaron rebelled against Moses on account of the Cushite woman that he had married. 2 They asked, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Hasn’t he also spoken through us?”

But the Lord heard it.
****************************************************************
The Lord has also heard all the words spoken by women teaching men from the scriptures in churches.
Jesus told us this,
Matthew 4:7
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”
****************************************************************
1 Timothy 2
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.

12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

@Scott Downey @Behold @Doug

What is that old saying?
That went out with the horse and buggy.
After the biblical period….Christianity changed.

If you are “Bible Only” things get confusing.
No wedding ceremonies.
Polygamy and concubinage are practiced.
Slavery is practiced.
And women are required to be silent in church.

There is no requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married in the scriptures.
The scriptures do not call for an end to polygamy and concubinage or slavery.
All that changed after the biblical period, leaving the Bible Only people, as they say high and dry.

Now there are no restrictions for females….male and females worship and serve the Lord.
And if you are familiar with churches where tongues are spoken frequently…..most of the time it is females that receive that gift.

 

[Doug]

The "law" being referred to here was the "vain traditions" of the Jewish ORAL LAW which had developed in the first century. Jewish religious leaders forbad the Torah to be taught to daughters, and men who allowed their daughters to read the Torah for themselves had a curse pronounced against them by the various rabbis.

Both 1 Cor. 14:34 and 35 are a QUOTE copied from the Corinthian church's letter sent to Paul, and to which Paul responded with shock and disgust in 1 Cor. 14:36-39. Paul in 1 Cor. 14:36-39 corrected the error which the Corinthian church men had stated in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and commanded them to "Forbid NOT to speak in tongues" in the church. Restrictions of women speaking in the church is the only "forbidding" being discussed in this 1 Cor. 14 context, and Paul was absolutely clear that those restrictions on women speaking in the church were a gross error on the part of the Corinthian men.

You said
The "law" being referred to here was the "vain traditions" of the Jewish ORAL

Paul wrote
[1Co 14:21 KJV] 21 In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

I don't think he was citing oral law but Isiah below
[Isa 28:11 KJV] 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

You said
Both 1 Cor. 14:34 and 35 are a QUOTE copied from the Corinthian church's letter sent to Paul,

My understanding is that we do not have a copy of this letter, so any such claims are not verified

Paul in 1 Cor. 14:36-39 corrected the error which the Corinthian church men had stated in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and commanded them to "Forbid NOT to speak in tongues" in the church

I do not read that Paul above in these verses allowed women to speak in the church

[1Co 14:1 KJV] 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul was saying that prophesy (or speaking plainly the things of God unto edification) was better than the spiritual gift of tongues

[1Co 14:5 KJV] 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul was saying prophesying was greater

[1Co 14:27 KJV] 27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

Paul was not profiting speaking in tongues but that it be done in order

 

[Doug]

How does this fit with the fact that Priscilla taught Apollos in the ways of God alongside her husband Aquila in their house church ...and that Paul named her as a co-laborer in the Lord?

Y'all need to seek the Lord on how to rightly divided the Word of God rather than discounting certain details that don't fit your preferred interpretation.

[Rom 16:3 KJV] 3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Women do have a function, but it is not to teach and preach in the local assembly

Don't forget that men can't fulfill the functions given to women in scripture

 

[Doug]

Yes, in that situation, 2000 yrs ago, when Local Assemblies were in a person's house.......and they were set up like this..

Men on one side and their wives on the other, with the children.
So, what Paul is doing, is getting that organized... eliminating all the chaos......according to Paul's situation.. and that is why He said... "I DONT">. vs, the Holy Spirit doesn't.
Paul does use as his reason that Adam was created first, so he's showing divine order.

So, 2000 ys later, ministers are both male and female, as they were in the OT, as well...

The only stipulation is.. "HUSBAND of one wife, can be a Pastor"..... and a woman can't be a HUSBAND.. as that is a MALE...so she can't be a PASTOR.

Sorry but I dont see what is relevant today
Can a women be a pastor today?

 

[Verily]

Paul said, that ye may ALL prophesy. Which would be both men and women since it says BOTH sons and daughters "shall prophecy" whereas the young men and the old men who are shown as those seeing visions or dreaming dreams. At least it shows us how these things are divided between them.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The Spirit dividing to every man as He wills accordingly, Philip the evangelist had four daughters which did prophesy, Acts 2:19

Ananias had a vision Acts 9:10 Saul in Acts 9:12 The Lord was a witness between the two men. As well as Cornelius who had a vision Acts 10:3 and likewise Peter having a vision Acts 10:17 The Lord being a witness between these two men as well. And ofcourse, Saul, now called Paul said he would go on to more visions (2 Cr 12:1)

 

[3 Resurrections]

My understanding is that we do not have a copy of this letter, so any such claims are not verified

Yes, we do have proof of this letter written by the Corinthians. Read 1 Corinthians 7:1. "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me..." You don't need a copy of the Corinthian church's letter to know that Paul received one from the Corinthian assembly, and that he was responding to the multiple issues they had brought up for his consideration and response back to them.

This issue the Corinthian men mentioned in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 of trying to restrict women from speaking in the assembly was only one item which Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians. And corrected their errors of practice.

Paul was saying prophesying was greater

Of course it was. Because the practice of tongues as a sign gift was going to cease after a time. But Paul did not forbid women to prophesy in the assembly under the stipulated conditions which he laid out for decency and order. And prophesying was to be done in public, so that all in the assembly could be edified - even unbelieving visitors to the assemblies. People (men and women) did not prophesy to themselves, but unto others (both men and women) for their edification (1Cor. 14:3).