14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[Grailhunter]

The only way to obtain God's intended message is through accurate hermeneutics.

Hermeneutics? Of what translation?

Hermeneutics of the scriptures in their own language. But even then you have to be knowledgeable of languages, the time period, the culture, the circumstances and the context of the scriptures.

 

[David in NJ]

May God grant you the healing you need, my friend.

Prayer answered.
I am back to 100% today.

Thank You Brother

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@Phoneman777, your whole thread is flawed

Jesus did not make up a fictitious story about an abstract realm and Abraham who we know is a real person!
Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls!
Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.

The Rich man's location is therefore real.

1. Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
2. What moral truth would be gained from something or some place that was not real?

3. Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!
4. The message to all is a stark warning.
And specifically financially rich, selfish lovers of money. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he inconacious of his surroundings He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
5. Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf (chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!
Jesus did not lie to us!
6. The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus' death and resurrection.

7. This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've shown you that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus uses the very comparative terms you speak of.

no you didn't., because they are not there.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Please show where comparative language is used or the term parable is used.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not JW.

You may as well be for you quote their false doctrine almost verbatim.

It's no secret that Hellenized Jews were confused about many things, including the subject of what happens when we die. So, Jesus drew from their thinking elements for use in His parable to get the point across. Paul did the same thing, drawing on popular notions as a means to communicate - NOT CORRUPT - the truth.

Okay you claim this, now show it not was a secret.

He did so in the Rich Man and Lazarus...because parables can contain elements that cannot and do not happen in real experience.

You have not proves this and show parables that contain false doctrine that Jesus used. Jesus compared heavenly things to earthly things but He clearly by His words He was making comparisons.

You spend too much time criticizing what I do and NOT ANY TIME AT ALL ADDRESSING THE 14 CONTRADICTIONS. Are you afraid you might lose a debate with me? Then get rubutting!

YOur fourteen points are opinions that came out of watchtower material. and the one thing you tried to cite from Scripture (the dead cease to exist) I showed you the teaching that was not known early in the OT. If you were a Jew, you would be a saducee for they did not believe in life after death either.

Your frustration is not with me, but with your inability to disprove my position.

Paul clearly says he'd "rather" to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" in his resurrection body so that he wouldn't be "naked" and "unclothed" dead in the grave. Is there any other explanation for "naked" and "unclothed" that can be except this one? No.

I biblically did with the big Scrip[tural fallacy you sought to advance. If you do nto accept the word of God as written, why should I seek to rebut the opinions or commentaries of others.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hermeneutics? Of what translation?

Hermeneutics of the scriptures in their own language. But even then you have to be knowledgeable of languages, the time period, the culture, the circumstances and the context of the scriptures.

If a Christian doesn't practice sound hermeneutics ("Biblical interpretation"), rely on credible MSS ("Peshitta", "Textus Receptus", anything beside those filthy Western or Alexandrian MSS families), have knowledge of languages, time period, culture, circumstances, and context, he has no business taking on the responsibility of "teacher".

 

[Phoneman777]

Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location.

Since you can't point to a specific text prohibiting the use of specific names or places in a parable, your claim is purely subjective and may by safely discarded.

And, there's a perfectly good reason why Jesus used those names - as for "spiritual location" He used none.

It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls!

If by "soul" you mean "whole person" or "life" - then yes. If you mean a "pagan poltergeist" that flies off from the body at death, that's paganism - not Biblical.

Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.

"Sheol" means "place of the dead" or "grave". No where is it depicted as a "detention center for conscious dead folks".

Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!

So, are angels coming with gas powered weed eaters to kill the crabgrass? No, we all understand that in His abstract, parabolic language, the angels are coming to gather the saints and leave the impenitent behind.

4. The message to all is a stark warning.
And specifically financially rich, selfish lovers of money. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he inconacious of his surroundings He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
5. Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf (chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!
Jesus did not lie to us!
6. The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus' death and resurrection.

Thank you for proving my point that turning this parable into a literal story causes an eruption of at least 14 contradictions, such as:

>How can it be these dead guys have bodies when the resurrection hasn't come to pass yet?
>How can "torment" be going on when Peter says "punishment" is reserved unto the "day of judgment"?
>How can the dead be "conscious of their surroundings when they "know not/perceive not" anything?
>How can these dead guys make noise when they "go down into silence"?
>How could the Rich Man who was dead and buried make plans when there is "no device" in the grave?
>How could these dead guys see anything when the grave is "dark"?
>How could these dead guys remember who everyone was when the grave is the "land of forgetfulness"?

Some guys are content to carry a gospel of inconsistency, while we prefer "the everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14.

7. This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.

The parable was a warning to Abraham's rich sons (the Jews) who sat at the table of blessing and were rich in the covenants, lively oracles, blessings, promises, etc., but in their unbelief, they were allowing them to fall off the table, leaving the dogs (Gentile outsiders) desiring those crumbs - that if they didn't get their act together, the tables would be turned and they'd be replaced by the Gentiles.

It seems their minds had already been made up even at the time they heard Jesus speak this parable, for when the real Lazarus was resurrected, instead of the Jews repenting, they went away to "take counsel how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus" and refused to hear Moses and the Prophets (the Word of God) even though "one rose from the dead".

 

[Phoneman777]

no you didn't., because they are not there.

Please show where comparative language is used or the term parable is used.

Why would you ask "please show where comparative language is used" after already claiming it's "not there"? Objective scholars don't pass judgment before the evidence has a chance to speak:

• "There was a certain rich man..." in Luke 16 is comparative language to other parables which also use "There was a certain man" or "A certain man..." etc.
• "And in hell he lift up his eyes in torment" in Luke 16 is comparative language to the parable of the Unmerciful Servant where he also winds up in torment.
• "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus...desiring to be fed" is comparative language to the "poor and maimed" who were called to replace the "chosen ones" in the parable of the Great Supper.

As for your claim that "Jesus would never entertain false doctrine nor use it to explain things" - the fact that Jesus knows full well that conscious talking dead people don't exist didn't prevent Him from using the imagery to warn the Jews of their impending downfall any more so than His knowledge that multi-head, multi-horn beasts rising from the Earth and sea don't exist prevent Him from using the imagery to warn the church of the coming eschatological climax...right or wrong?

 

[Grailhunter]

If a Christian doesn't practice sound hermeneutics ("Biblical interpretation"), rely on credible MSS ("Peshitta", "Textus Receptus", anything beside those filthy Western or Alexandrian MSS families), have knowledge of languages, time period, culture, circumstances, and context, he has no business taking on the responsibility of "teacher".

Biblical interpretation or hermeneutics amount to promoting all the errors that multiplied in the past and leads people astray. A good example is the Textus Receptus which no biblical scholar of any creditably supports. Why do I say that?

Any serious study should use scriptures not biblical translations. I am a Theologian and a Historian, with formal college schooling in 5 countries, I attended my first Christian college at 15, so it has been most of my life. That is why I say that no biblical scholar of any creditably supports the Textus Receptus because I have been there and did that.....If anyone went to college to be a Theologian they would never be taught that the Textus Receptus is reliable. This is why we have so many Protestant denominations......uneducated and unknowledgeable people promoting false beliefs.

In college you are not going to study biblical translations or the Textus Receptus for the most part. And there is no reason to, we now have the older texts to study, that is where understanding the biblical languages come into play. No reason to cling to the old errors of the past.

For another, over the centuries some theological words and phrases have creped into the translations and the minds of Christians that have caused serious serious false beliefs that have lead people astray and caused a lot of sins that harms people and causes them to go to Hell.

 

[Phoneman777]

You may as well be for you quote their false doctrine almost verbatim.

The only doctrine we share with JWs is that the soul is mortal, and I'm sure a closer inspection would reveal a not so commonality. Yes, we also teach "Michael the Archangel is Jesus" - but that's where the similarity ends. They totally twist this once widely accepted Bible doctrine into an unBiblical heresy - we don't.

Okay you claim this, now show it not was a secret.

How about you do a little research?
The "Intertestamental Period" Jews were as consumed with ecumenicalism as you "protestants" are, what with all the doctrines you guys now share Mother Rome to one degree or another, including Immortal Soul, Eternal Torment, Cheap Grace, Cheap Baptism, Desacralization, Christmas, Easter, and the most objectionable one of all, SUNDAY SACREDNESS.

You have not proves this and show parables that contain false doctrine that Jesus used. Jesus compared heavenly things to earthly things but He clearly by His words He was making comparisons.

Jesus no more hesitated to use non-existent "conscious dead people" to warn the Jews of their impending downfall than He hesitated to use non-existent "multi-headed, multi-horned beasts rising from Earth and sea" to warn the church of what shall be in the time of the end.

YOur fourteen points are opinions that came out of watchtower material. and the one thing you tried to cite from Scripture (the dead cease to exist) I showed you the teaching that was not known early in the OT. If you were a Jew, you would be a saducee for they did not believe in life after death either.

They are facts that came straight from Scripture which you are unable to refute. A blind man can see the OT teaches the dead cease to be but a spiritually blind man, seeing all things, is hopelessly blind to truth.

Ezekiel says of the devil, "And never shalt thou be anymore". He's not going to exist anymore.
Obadiah says, "They shall be as though they had not been". They're not going to exist anymore.
The Psalmist says, "...the wicked shall not be...(his place) shall not be". Again, not going to exist anymore.
Isaiah says those who will "dwell with the devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings" are the righteous.

God said, "Thou shalt SURELY die" - the Serpent said, "NOT SURELY die"...who you gonna believe?

I biblically did with the big Scrip[tural fallacy you sought to advance. If you do nto accept the word of God as written, why should I seek to rebut the opinions or commentaries of others.

It is you who don't accept the Word of God, saying that OT doesn't speak of any cessation of life.

Does a Soul come into existence other than as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life?
How the flip, then, can it continue to exist when the Breath returns up there and the Body down here?
You can't answer that because there is no answer.

 

[Phoneman777]

Biblical interpretation or hermeneutics amount to promoting all the errors that multiplied in the past and leads people astray.

Says who?

A good example is the Textus Receptus which no biblical scholar of any creditably supports.

"Who but those with Roman catholic sympathies could ever be pleased with the notion that God preserved the true NT text in secret for almost 1,000 years and then finally handed it over to the Roman Pontiff for safe-keeping?" - Les Garrett, 1982 Which Bible Can We Trust?

Why do I say that?

Any serious study should use scriptures not biblical translations. I am a Theologian and a Historian, with formal college schooling in 5 countries, I attended my first Christian college at 15, so it has been most of my life. That is why I say that no biblical scholar of any creditably supports the Textus Receptus because I have been there and did that.....If anyone went to college to be a Theologian they would never be taught that the Textus Receptus is reliable. This is why we have so many Protestant denominations......uneducated and unknowledgeable people promoting false beliefs.

Any "Bible scholar" who doesn't recognize the papacy's 1000+ year war on the Scriptures should ask for a refund. The reason the TR is taught as "unreliable" is because of widespread ignorance of the facts.

In college you are not going to study biblical translations or the Textus Receptus for the most part. And there is no reason to, we now have the older texts to study, that is where understanding the biblical languages come into play. No reason to cling to the old errors of the past.

Since when does "older" mean "better"?

Are you aware that "protestant" Techendorf went to the vatican about a year before going down to St. Catherine's Monastery and "rescuing" the Codex Sinaiticus from the fiery fate it so richly deserves?

Are you aware that "protestant" Westcott and Hort were secret Roman catholic sympathizers?

There's much more to the story than comparing older MSS with not so old MSS and drawing conclusions based on that.

For another, over the centuries some theological words and phrases have creped into the translations and the minds of Christians that have caused serious serious false beliefs that have lead people astray and caused a lot of sins that harms people and causes them to go to Hell.

“If the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly every problem looks like a nail".

 

[Grailhunter]

Says who?

Says the facts.

"Who but those with Roman catholic sympathies could ever be pleased with the notion that God preserved the true NT text in secret for almost 1,000 years and then finally handed it over to the Roman Pontiff for safe-keeping?" - Les Garrett, 1982 Which Bible Can We Trust?

This has nothing to do with the Catholics, they like their own Bible. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CATHOLICS!!!

Since when does "older" mean "better"?

Closer to the originals LOL
If you actually studied the texts, you would know that as they moved through history people added things to the texts as they went a long, it is very obvious. So if they appear in newer texts they came from thin air!

That is why the NASB puts brackets around some scriptures and notes that they were not in earlier texts. They know this because they use the older texts as reference. Not that they do not reference other sources but the older text wins out.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

And, there's a perfectly good reason why Jesus used those names - as for "spiritual location" He used none.

He said in Matt. 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

I suppose you think the gates of Hades means what, the lid to a coffin?

Sheol" means "place of the dead" or "grave". No where is it depicted as a "detention center for conscious dead folks".

When Job was in deep despair and thought he was dying he said, "Before I go and I shall not return, to the land of darkness and deep , the land of utter gloom as darkness itself, of deep shadow without order ..." Job 19:21-22

And here Job is describing dead people in fear: " The departed spirits tremble under the waters and their habitants... " Job 26:5

Numbers 16:31-35 describes the men of Korah being swallowed by the earth and going down to Sheol. Fire came forth and consumed them and the earth closed over them.

God describes his anger ( certainly deeper than six feet): " For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol and consumes the earth with it's yield and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut. 32:22
Where do you think that is coming from - a grave? Fire from a grave that sets mountains on fire? That is a volcanic eruption!

"For Sheol cannot thank you, Death cannot praise you, those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. Isaiah 38:18

God sent bad angels into pits of darkness, Tarturus, which is part of Hades. (2 Peter 2:4-6)

In Ezek. 26:20-21, God judges Tyre, sends them to the pit - "and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth with those who go down to the pit ... I will bring terrors on you ..."
Other scriptures to examine: Isaiah 24:17-22; Ezek. 32:24; Psalm 140:10; Rev. 9:1-2

So, are angels coming with gas powered weed eaters to kill the crabgrass?

I have been battling crabgrass sprouting up all over my lawn ... would you be so kind to ask them for me?

Since you can't point to a specific text prohibiting the use of specific names or places in a parable, your claim is purely subjective and may by safely discarded.

Your theology is flawed ... in many areas. You are an Amillennialist, who symbolizes much of Revelation as if most of it happened already. Your "soul sleep' view I guess is from SDA. You claimed not to be a JW, well that's good.
Oh, and btw, most of the people in this thread who are trying to reason with you, will discard all this flawed theology. Nothing that is false sticks, it goes out void, because it is not the work of the Holy Spirit!
Probably should have spent your time doing something more enjoyable.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Cont.
So with this false premise that
Phoneman777 created in this thread, that Hades is only the grave where someone goes when they die and are buried and not some netherworld/ underworld, a hopeless place of darkness, fear and torment, void of anything good, where ungodly departed souls go, where did he get this interpretation and who inspired him to share it and for what purpose?

IF it is not from God, then it is from someone else. The purpose then would be deceive people into believing that there is no such place after death. Why, to remove fear of judgment? Why are we to fear God if not for severe judgment? What are we saved from if Death is just unconscious, non existance? No Hell, ( Lake of Fire), no destruction ... no end of existence? Maybe Phoneman777 will tell try to tell us there is no heaven either?

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus never used real names in parables. This is a true story.

I believe it's not even a parable, Jesus just ridiculed the Pharisees in return for their heresy they introduced during the centuries of absence of prophets.

Heresy-one : there is no bosom of Abraham, they made that up.
Heresy-two : the description of hell comes right out Greek mythology, it slipped in.

Context, Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

The irony of the story is that Pharisees end up in their own fabrications.

 

[Phoneman777]

Says the facts.


This has nothing to do with the Catholics, they like their own Bible. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CATHOLICS!!!


Closer to the originals LOL
If you actually studied the texts, you would know that as they moved through history people added things to the texts as they went a long, it is very obvious. So if they appear in newer texts they came from thin air!

That is why the NASB puts brackets around some scriptures and notes that they were not in earlier texts. They know this because they use the older texts as reference. Not that they do not reference other sources but the older text wins out.

You mean, facts that are "closer" to errors? Because Paul said there were "many" in his day who worked to "corrupt the Word of God" - right or wrong?

It has EVERYTHING to do with catholics and their war on the Bible.

Again, there's far more to consider than MSS that is "closer" to the originals. I refuse to believe God preserved the truth in secret for 1,000 years before depositing it into the hands of those who refuse to believe the blood of Christ ALONE saves us.

 

[Grailhunter]

You mean, facts that are "closer" to errors? Because Paul said there were "many" in his day who worked to "corrupt the Word of God" - right or wrong?

It has EVERYTHING to do with catholics and their war on the Bible.

Again, there's far more to consider than MSS that is "closer" to the originals. I refuse to believe God preserved the truth in secret for 1,000 years before depositing it into the hands of those who refuse to believe the blood of Christ ALONE saves us.

LOL You so funny
Happy Thankgiving!

 

[Phoneman777]

He said in Matt. 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

I suppose you think the gates of Hades means what, the lid to a coffin?

The "gates of hell" simply means "the state of being dead". Jesus is simply saying dearly departed saints will not be dead forever, but will rise in the resurrection.

When Job was in deep despair and thought he was dying he said, "Before I go and I shall not return, to the land of darkness and deep , the land of utter gloom as darkness itself, of deep shadow without order ..." Job 19:21-22

Yes, "death" is a place of "darkness" and "silence" and "no praise for God" - because those who pass from life to death no longer exist because the spirit went up, the body rots down here, and the Soul ceases to be.

And here Job is describing dead people in fear: " The departed spirits tremble under the waters and their habitants... " Job 26:5

Talk about reckless hermeneutics!

The passage is clearly employing symbolism to describe the power of God's voice to shake things, including the "dead" (verse 5) and the "pillars of heaven" (verse 11).

Can literal erected "pillars" be afraid and astonished? Neither can the literal dead.

Numbers 16:31-35 describes the men of Korah being swallowed by the earth and going down to Sheol. Fire came forth and consumed them and the earth closed over them.

Yes, dead people are usually put in the ground when they die - God decided to give the grave diggers at Korah the day off.

God describes his anger ( certainly deeper than six feet): " For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol and consumes the earth with it's yield and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut. 32:22
Where do you think that is coming from - a grave? Fire from a grave that sets mountains on fire? That is a volcanic eruption!

Take a wild guess how deep the graves of the Antediluvians are. The passage is an apocalyptic passage which describes the coming fiery destruction of this place which will burn unto the "lowest grave".

"For Sheol cannot thank you, Death cannot praise you, those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. Isaiah 38:18

God sent bad angels into pits of darkness, Tarturus, which is part of Hades. (2 Peter 2:4-6)

Good gravy, the graves of the dead are below the surface of the Earth.

What text that says Tartarus is "part of Hades"? "Hades" is for dead people, not live demons.

In Ezek. 26:20-21, God judges Tyre, sends them to the pit - "and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth with those who go down to the pit ... I will bring terrors on you ..."
Other scriptures to examine: Isaiah 24:17-22; Ezek. 32:24; Psalm 140:10; Rev. 9:1-2

What corrupted Bible are you reading? Stick with the KJV!

Ezekiel 26:20-21 KJV
[20] When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit...
(DOES IT SAY ANYONE IS ALIVE DOWN THERE?)
...that thou be not inhabited...
(THE LAND IS EMPTY BECAUSE EVERYONE IS DEAD OR DRAGGED OFF TO BABYLON)
; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
(BECAUSE JERUSALEM'S SHAME IS ENDED, EITHER BY DEATH OR EXILE OF THE SHAMEFUL)

[21] I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more : though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.
(IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT THEY WON'T "BE" AKA "EXIST" ANYMORE)

I have been battling crabgrass sprouting up all over my lawn ... would you be so kind to ask them for me?

Your theology is flawed ... in many areas. You are an Amillennialist, who symbolizes much of Revelation as if most of it happened already. Your "soul sleep' view I guess is from SDA. You claimed not to be a JW, well that's good.
Oh, and btw, most of the people in this thread who are trying to reason with you, will discard all this flawed theology. Nothing that is false sticks, it goes out void, because it is not the work of the Holy Spirit!
Probably should have spent your time doing something more enjoyable.

Is that the best you got? Symbolism and misinterpreted texts?


I've shown you PLAIN, UNDENIABLE texts from Solomon, David, Ezekiel, etc., that when a soul dies, they no longer know things, do things, praise things, plan things, feel things, remember things, or share in anything that has to do with planet Earth...and you STILL refuse to believe.

 

[Phoneman777]

LOL You so funny
Happy Thankgiving!

Man, you just reminded me that I've got a very short work week this week! Thanks man and Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The "gates of hell" simply means "the state of being dead". Jesus is simply saying dearly departed saints will not be dead forever, but will rise in the resurrection.

Yes, "death" is a place of "darkness" and "silence" and "no praise for God" - because those who pass from life to death no longer exist because the spirit went up, the body rots down here, and the Soul ceases to be.

Talk about reckless hermeneutics!

The passage is clearly employing symbolism to describe the power of God's voice to shake things, including the "dead" (verse 5) and the "pillars of heaven" (verse 11).

Can literal erected "pillars" be afraid and astonished? Neither can the literal dead.

Yes, dead people are usually put in the ground when they die - God decided to give the grave diggers at Korah the day off.

Take a wild guess how deep the graves of the Antediluvians are. The passage is an apocalyptic passage which describes the coming fiery destruction of this place which will burn unto the "lowest grave".

Good gravy, the graves of the dead are below the surface of the Earth.

What text that says Tartarus is "part of Hades"? "Hades" is for dead people, not live demons.

What corrupted Bible are you reading? Stick with the KJV!

Ezekiel 26:20-21 KJV
[20] When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit...
(DOES IT SAY ANYONE IS ALIVE DOWN THERE?)
...that thou be not inhabited...
(THE LAND IS EMPTY BECAUSE EVERYONE IS DEAD OR DRAGGED OFF TO BABYLON)
; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
(BECAUSE JERUSALEM'S SHAME IS ENDED, EITHER BY DEATH OR EXILE OF THE SHAMEFUL)

[21] I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more : though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.
(IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT THEY WON'T "BE" AKA "EXIST" ANYMORE)

Is that the best you got? Symbolism and misinterpreted texts?


I've shown you PLAIN, UNDENIABLE texts from Solomon, David, Ezekiel, etc., that when a soul dies, they no longer know things, do things, praise things, plan things, feel things, remember things, or share in anything that has to do with planet Earth...and you STILL refuse to believe.

Your thread is false, like much of your theology. You'll find out soon enough. That's enough for me, I'm done.