Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Don't be grieved SS.
@Ritajanice and I are OK.
We have a little difficulty communicating and it gets on our nerves at times.
But no problem.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
OK,,,,and I wish @Ritajanice would read along since she really has refused to discuss Romans 1:19 with me....
To clarify....to me discussing a particular verse means discussing that verse....not just throwing other verses at me that have no meaning to the discussion. (I'm not saying YOU do this).
Hebrews (whoever wrote it) tells us that to please God we must believe He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
So to be pleasing to God we must know that HE IS.....that He exists.
And then we seek Him in our lives would be a good way of expressing this...
And then God rewards those that believe He is,,,,and that seek Him.
The above reflects Romans 1:19-20 where Paul states that God has been known forever, even before the gospels were written, because it is EVIDENT, through creation itself, that God must exist. Creation requires a creator. I knew this when I was 10 years old. Indeed, WHAT/WHO created all that we see.
Hebrews 11:1-5 explains WHY
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Hebrews 12 continues with the idea of having faith.
There was no gospel when Abraham was told to go into Caanan and He obeyed God.....
IOW,,,God reveals Himself to all men....
this is why they have no excuse.
They ALL have the ability to either accept or deny God,,,the creator God (not Buddha).
But you asked ARE THEY SAVED?
Let's see.
They've acknowledged that there's a God.
But will they live for the God they now know is present?
Let's ask this:
HOW is anyone saved?
They come to believe in God.
Because He revealed Himself in some way.
They accept the God that has been revealed to them.
They live for that God.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
My wife taught pre-K in a school that was really little more than glorified day-care, so my first thought was this guy:
A user on (of all things) a software forum referred to him as "Barney the Purple Hellwyrm". My wife agrees totally.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Sorry sis, that is your understanding of scripture , plus your own interpretation of what it means..
We don’t know how to seek out God, Only after we have become Born Again, we then know him in our spirit, as we have been birthed by the Holy Spirit..
You cannot seek him out..only if he chooses to make himself known to his Born Again children..by divine heart revelation.
God never revealed himself to me through creation, never ever.,..,.there are thousands and thousands who never read a Bible.
I was Born Again by the seed of God, by divine , heart, revelation..I can never deny that..I also believe this scripture...we disagree on so many levels.. I’m not arguing with you any more over it Sis, you have your belief, I have mine, I wish you well, no hard feelings either.
My faith is Alive and Active in the Spirit....
Many Christians are aware of Hebrews 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” The common and correct interpretation of this verse is that God’s Word is powerful for us as we strive to persevere in the faith. God’s powerful Word accomplishes everything He means for it to as it pierces a Christian’s very soul and spirit
Bible verses related to Total Depravity from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance
- Sort By Book Order
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Read More...)
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
John 6:65 - And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Genesis 6:5 - And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ephesians 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Romans 8:7 - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:10-11 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Read More...)
Romans 7:18 - For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ephesians 4:18 - Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Romans 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
I am now going to exit this thread, as I can’t be forced to believe scripture as @GodsGrace does...the scripture she posted does not resonate with my spirit....and I can assure you I’ve read it over and over.
That would be me denying that God gave birth to my spirit, by his supernatural power, it was all of God...therefore all Glory is his alone.
No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them...the Spirit does the birthing...
Catch you in another thread,Brother.
That would be me denying that God gave birth to my spirit, by his supernatural power, it was all of God...therefore all Glory is his alone.
No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them...the Spirit does the birthing...
Catch you in another thread,Brother.
St. SteVen said:
Let's work this out and see where it leads.
A person comes to the realization that their must be a creator God.
Now what? Are they saved? Did they meet the condition for salvation?
It simply states that the creator is "clearly seen, being understood from what has been made..."
Refocusing attention to Hebrews chapter eleven further proves my point of the
incompleteness I see in this Romans chapter one apologetic. That's my point.
It looks as though you have another post that actually addresses my question.
I'll check that out after this.
But it doesn't support the idea that "people are without excuse."
Is there salvation in recognizing the creator in creation?
And damnation in NOT recognizing/acknowledging God as creator?
This is where the apologetic falls apart. "people are without excuse." ??? Really?
[
Let's work this out and see where it leads.
A person comes to the realization that their must be a creator God.
Now what? Are they saved? Did they meet the condition for salvation?
This proves my point. The Romans chapter one scripture, "people are without excuse." is an incomplete claim.
It simply states that the creator is "clearly seen, being understood from what has been made..."
Refocusing attention to Hebrews chapter eleven further proves my point of the
incompleteness I see in this Romans chapter one apologetic. That's my point.
It looks as though you have another post that actually addresses my question.
I'll check that out after this.
This is why Hebrews 11:6 is a much better apologetic than Romans 1:19-20.
But it doesn't support the idea that "people are without excuse."
Hold that thought. "There was no gospel when Abraham was told to go..." to Canaan.
You have NOT proved this point.
Accept or "deny" (poor word choice) God as creator. To what end?
Is there salvation in recognizing the creator in creation?
And damnation in NOT recognizing/acknowledging God as creator?
This is where the apologetic falls apart. "people are without excuse." ??? Really?
[
St. SteVen said:
Let's work this out and see where it leads.
A person comes to the realization that their must be a creator God.
Now what? Are they saved? Did they meet the condition for salvation?
Once again proving my point.
Once again proving my point. Is anyone keeping score? - LOL
[
Let's work this out and see where it leads.
A person comes to the realization that their must be a creator God.
Now what? Are they saved? Did they meet the condition for salvation?
There it is. There is more required than simply acknowledging God as creator.
Once again proving my point.
This is WAY beyond simply acknowledging God as creator.
Once again proving my point. Is anyone keeping score? - LOL
[
Your last sentence is all that's required SS.
God is CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY WHAT IS MADE.... (creation).
He is understood by WHAT IS MADE....
even before there was any gospel.
What point does it prove?
What incompleteness?
Romans 1:19....is a complete thought.
Everyone will be without an excuse...
Why?
Because God has made Himself be known to ALL MEN.
You mean people DO have an excuse?
Contrary to what scripture states?
WHAT IS that excuse??
OK. I'm holding the thought.
But I've thought this all over good and hard and I'm not one of those Christians that enjoys putting God into a box because of one verse in the NT,,,,which I agree with and which I've explained. I Am The Way....The Truth....and The Life. No One Comes To The Father Except Through Me.
Absolutely.
2 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
No matter how someone is saved....he is saved by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.
And through all time....even before Jesus' sacrifice...those with faith were saved by His offer.
What?!
I have not proved the point that no man has an excuse?
I need to post Romans again.....
Roman 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
You could not agree....I don't tend to go on forever.
But you cannot say that I didn't prove my point.
Romans 1:19-20 proves my point.
Paul proved my point.
Exactly.
And, according to Paul DENY is not a poor word choice.
in 2 Timothy 2.12 Paul states that if we DENY God, He will DENY us.
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Why will God deny us?
Because God made us to love Him.
He is an almighty being.
If we do not love Him back....He will not be able to have us in His presence.
If we deny Him....He also will deny us.
This is why the NT teaches that we are to accept Jesus.
John 12:44-45
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me
Jesus and the Father are One.
John 10:30
I'm not posting Romans 1 again.
If you have a different understanding of it,,,,please post it.
PAUL states that people are without excuse....I'm only repeating what HE states.
What point does it prove?
John 3:16 states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus.
You're a smart guy....what does BELIEVE mean?
It means that we're to LEARN and FOLLOW the one in whom we believe.
It's not a BELIEVING of the mind,,,but a believing of the heart.
So my statement is correct and follows NT teaching....
We must ACKNOWLEDGE God....even if we're living on the North Pole...
AND
Just as the NT teaches , we must live a life worthy of God.
You still haven't stated what your point is, BTW.
Here is what we need to do to live for God:
Love God.
Love others.
Love ourselves.
Doesn't take a whole lot of writing to understand that and be pleasing to God.
The Law of Love will complete all of the 10 commandments...
which is why Jesus left us with the 2 Great Commandments...
That's all we need....they cover everything.
Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 22:37:40
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38“This is the great and foremost commandment.
39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
WHAT IS YOUR POINT SS???
Please use scripture.
Here's the thing.
I claim that not everyone who has gone into the afterlife has heard the gospel, or even knows who Jesus is.
The rebuttal I get is that Romans chapter one says people are without excuse.
So I ask, "Where is the gospel in creation?" And, "Is there salvation in acknowledging the creator?"
[
Agreed.
And it's of no consequence.
No gospel until the NT.
Yes. There's salvation in acknowledging the creator.
Please don't write back and ask if ACKNOWLEDGING is sufficient because I wrote a whole post on this.
@St. SteVen
I looked around on google and found some interesting explanations.
This is from a site I DO NOT use because it's of a denomination I cannot agree with...
however, the writer (John Piper) explains Romans 1 much better than I probably do
so I'm going to post some of the article.
In Romans 1:18–23 we see that every human being has enough knowledge of God to be held accountable before him at the judgment day. But how much more knowledge and more accountability there is for those who have sat under the gospel — maybe even under the best ministry for years and years — and yet have not believed or have not acted in faithfulness on the gospel.
Whenever people ask me, “What about those who have never heard the gospel?” My answer, based partly on Luke 12, is that no one will be judged for not obeying revelation they did not have. We will all be judged according to the knowledge of the truth we have access to. All of us, every human being on the planet, has access (Paul says in Romans 1) to the knowledge of God — that he is to be thanked and that he is to be glorified with all the implications that carries.
source: Desiringgod.com
I looked around on google and found some interesting explanations.
This is from a site I DO NOT use because it's of a denomination I cannot agree with...
however, the writer (John Piper) explains Romans 1 much better than I probably do
so I'm going to post some of the article.
In Romans 1:18–23 we see that every human being has enough knowledge of God to be held accountable before him at the judgment day. But how much more knowledge and more accountability there is for those who have sat under the gospel — maybe even under the best ministry for years and years — and yet have not believed or have not acted in faithfulness on the gospel.
Whenever people ask me, “What about those who have never heard the gospel?” My answer, based partly on Luke 12, is that no one will be judged for not obeying revelation they did not have. We will all be judged according to the knowledge of the truth we have access to. All of us, every human being on the planet, has access (Paul says in Romans 1) to the knowledge of God — that he is to be thanked and that he is to be glorified with all the implications that carries.
source: Desiringgod.com
In a way, this is actually a good defense for Christian Universalism. These points agree with UR.
- "every human being has enough knowledge of God to be held accountable before him at the judgment day."
- "no one will be judged for not obeying revelation they did not have."
[
No SS,,,,it's not a good defense for universalism.
This is because universalism is not found in the NT.
Look at what you're repeating:
EVERYONE HAS ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE.
If we're accountable it means we will be JUDGED.
IF we're judged....how do we all come to be saved?
NO ONE WILL BE JUDGED FOR NOT OBEYING REVELATION THEY DID NOT HAVE.
IOW,,,,God will judge us ONLY for the revelation we did have.
And,,,,Romans 1:19 states that EVERYONE has enough revelation through what can be seen....through creation.
So that NO ONE will have an EXCUSE.
If universalism were true.....no one would NEED/REQUIRE an excuse.
Christians tend to forget that one of the possible outcomes in judgement is mercy.
They assume that judgement means unending punishment. Not true.
What's the point in that?
Should sin triumph over grace in the end?
Are you sure?
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
[
Oh for goodness sake SS,,,,if God didn't have mercy He'd just send everyone to be FAR away from Him after the fall of humankind.
What is interesting about this is that calvinists claim God is merciful because He just chooses a few lucky ones to go to heaven...and this makes Him merciful....Ah....but it doesn't make Him just.
You claim that God must be merciful by sending EVERYONE to go to heaven....Ah...but this doesn't make Him just.
What does JUST mean anyway?
If it means what it means.....:
TO GIVE TO EACH WHAT HE DESERVES....
Then we must accept the judgement if we're each to be judged by what we deserve.
(after salvation, of course).
And the problem with those that believe God is NOT just....
like to believe He's all mercy.
This is how the bible describes God:
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST
Divine Simplicity...God is what He is.
Read Romans 8:21 ALL OF CREATION suffered from the fall....ALL OF CREATIONS will be restored.
Jesus died for THE WHOLE WORLD....
His sacrifice was sufficient to save everyone THAT WANTS TO BE SAVED.
Read John 3:16
Read Acts 16:31
From Him, Through Him and In Him is a deep theological discussion and I'm not having it here.
You make it to be too plain.
And wow, Romans 11:32 when Paul is teaching that the Gentiles were ESTRANGED from God but now have the opportunity to belong to the Body. Bad pick SS. It proves we can be estranged from God.
Ditto.
You can't accept that there are conditions to being saved.
You really believe a holy God will let everyone in?
Read Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean is getting in.
To know what unclean is read about the marriage banquet in Matthew.
Yes Sir. You do like these verses.
Problem is.....you must accept all verses in the NT.
Not just the ones that sound pleasant to you personally.
Especially of those who believe.
Do ALL persons believe in God?
Well, that's all I have time for.
Your verses do NOT support your belief system.
AND,,,,I'm not playing verse ping pong with you.
You can believe what you will...
but it is NOT biblical because universalism was NEVER taught either in the NT
or after the NT or EVER until, if I remember correctly, about the 1800's.
I do sometimes wish Jesus had written a book,,,but He didn't, so we have to take ALL of scripture to come
to a true understanding of what HE stated.
And just to end on a good note.
Read John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
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