If you are a son of God, come down off the TORTURE STAKE

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus took several hours tob die. If he had been as thecJW's state suspended by his arms over his head he would have died in minutes.
One cannot pull oneself up with arms over ones head.

If the JW’s are right, then the cross is of pagan origin and has no place in a Christian’s worship.
The Israelites were forbidden to “make” images of “anything”, (Exodus 20: 4-5) let alone use them in worship. There is no “cross” in the Bible….nor does the shape matter one iota.

But the thing is, it wasn’t his arms that could pull him up to breathe…it was the little platform under his feet called a hypopodium, which was provided because the arms may not have held the weight of a person’s whole body. This platform extended the suffering of the victim because they could push themselves up with their feet to avoid suffocation. It’s the reason why the Romans broke the legs of their victims, and why they didn’t need to break Jesus’ legs.

After a whole night of interrogation, torture and mistreatment, Jesus was in bad shape by the time they hung him up…..his death fulfilled prophesy though….in that ”not a bone of his would be broken”.

 

[Windmill Charge]

If the JW’s are right, then the cross is of pagan origin and has no place in a Christian’s worship.

It has nothing to do with the JW. who crucified Jesus?
It was the soldiers of a pagan nation the Romans.
It is a no brainer that the cross comes from a pagan nation.

The cross is not worshipped by Christians, it is but a symbol of where our saviour died , in our place, bearing our sins, guilt, shame etc.

The important thing is that Jesus was hung on a tree/cross.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It has nothing to do with the JW. who crucified Jesus?
It was the soldiers of a pagan nation the Romans.
It is a no brainer that the cross comes from a pagan nation.

So let me ask you….if Jesus was hung instead of impaled (literally, because a “stauros” is a single piece of timber or paling) would we find a gallows on every church building?….perhaps with an image of Jesus swinging from the rope on some?
If he was executed by firing squad, would there be guns on those church buildings or hung around people’s necks? Do you see how bizarre it is to glorify the instrument used to put Christ to death?

Do you understand God’s command NOT TO MAKE an image of anything that is used in worship? (Exodus 20:4-5) Can you deny that it is inextricably tied up with worship?
If God said not to “MAKE” any kind of image, where is the justification for doing so?
There were no crosses in Christianity until the corrupted “church” introduced it, centuries later. If there was no cross mentioned in the Bible, and no crosses found in the tombs of the early Christians….what does that tell you? They were careful not to practice idolatry….the RCC was obviously not averse to the practice however.

The cross is not worshipped by Christians, it is but a symbol of where our saviour died , in our place, bearing our sins, guilt, shame etc.

The important thing is that Jesus was hung on a tree/cross.

Yes, it fulfilled prophesy that he was “hung on a tree” (xylon).
Here was God’s law….
Deuteronomy 21:22-23…
“When someone is convicted of a crime punishable by death and is executed and you hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all night upon the tree; you must bury him that same day, for anyone hung on a tree is under God’s curse. You must not defile the land that the Lord your God is giving you for possession.” (NRSVUE)

And here is the fulfillment concerning the manner of Christ’s death.

Gal 3:13..
”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.“ (NRSVUE)

If you do some original language word studies, the whole picture emerges when you see how the same word (translated as “cross”) is no such thing. The cross as a “Christian” symbol is a later edition to what became apostate “Christianity”. (Also foretold)

 

[Windmill Charge]

So let me ask you….if Jesus was hung instead of impaled (literally, because a “stauros” is a single piece of timber or paling) would we find a gallows on every church building?….perhaps with an image of Jesus swinging from the rope on some?
If he was executed by firing squad, would there be guns on those church buildings or hung around people’s necks? Do you see how bizarre it is to glorify the instrument used to put Christ to death?

Do you understand God’s command NOT TO MAKE an image of anything that is used in worship? (Exodus 20:4-5) Can you deny that it is inextricably tied up with worship?
If God said not to “MAKE” any kind of image, where is the justification for doing so?
There were no crosses in Christianity until the corrupted “church” introduced it, centuries later. If there was no cross mentioned in the Bible, and no crosses found in the tombs of the early Christians….what does that tell you? They were careful not to practice idolatry….the RCC was obviously not averse to the practice however.

Yes, it fulfilled prophesy that he was “hung on a tree” (xylon).
Here was God’s law….
Deuteronomy 21:22-23…
“When someone is convicted of a crime punishable by death and is executed and you hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all night upon the tree; you must bury him that same day, for anyone hung on a tree is under God’s curse. You must not defile the land that the Lord your God is giving you for possession.” (NRSVUE)

And here is the fulfillment concerning the manner of Christ’s death.

Gal 3:13..
”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.“ (NRSVUE)

If you do some original language word studies, the whole picture emerges when you see how the same word (translated as “cross”) is no such thing. The cross as a “Christian” symbol is a later edition to what became apostate “Christianity”. (Also foretold)

As a.lways the sects make mountains out of molehills.

Jesus died by the method foretold in scripture. He died as a prepitiation for our sins.

There is no cross inside the church I attend, yet other churches I've attended have had crosses in them and no attention was paid to them.

As I said making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As a.lways the sects make mountains out of molehills.

Jesus died by the method foretold in scripture. He died as a prepitiation for our sins.

There is no cross inside the church I attend, yet other churches I've attended have had crosses in them and no attention was paid to them.

As I said making a mountain out of a molehill.

Idolatry is the making of images used in worship....the cross is an image used in worship. The sight of one wearing a cross signals that this person is declaring themselves a disciple of Christ.
A cross on a church building is inextricably linked to worship. No attention paid to them?....then why are they there?

Idolatry is not a molehill...it is the breach of the second Commandment.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Idolatry is the making of images used in worship....the cross is an image used in worship. The sight of one wearing a cross signals that this person is declaring themselves a disciple of Christ.
A cross on a church building is inextricably linked to worship. No attention paid to them?....then why are they there?

Idolatry is not a molehill...it is the breach of the second Commandment.

As I have said, I have not seen crosses used in worship, so there is no idolatry in the churches I worship in.
Having a cross on a building serves to identify that building as a church.

It's why the Chinese communist party has been removing crosses from churches in China, to make them less visible.

Idolatry is not just of objects it can also be of ideas and of organisations.
Example the Watch towe tract and bible society is an idol worshipped by jw, equally the church of laterday Saints is as it like jw, places itself ovefscripture an idol.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As I have said, I have not seen crosses used in worship, so there is no idolatry in the churches I worship in.

Are we only speaking about churches you worship in? I use the term “churches” generically. The cross is usually inside as well as outside of a “church” building, so it is inextricably tied to to worship. Some even have an image of Jesus on them. If that isn’t tied to worship, I don’t know what is...?

Having a cross on a building serves to identify that building as a church.

Yes, it identifies it as a place of worship.

It's why the Chinese communist party has been removing crosses from churches in China, to make them less visible.

You don’t need a cross to advertise your Christianity......you do that by your behavior.

Idolatry is not just of objects it can also be of ideas and of organisations.

I agree. Some worship their political leaders, treating them like some kind of savior....
Not something Jesus would advocate.
Some idolize weapons, relying on them instead of God to provide their security......others use alcohol to detach from their troubled lives....but they will be sober in the morning and their problems will still be there.
God has much better solutions.

Example the Watch towe tract and bible society is an idol worshipped by jw, equally the church of laterday Saints is as it like jw, places itself ovefscripture an idol.

I would find it extremely difficult to worship a Bible printery....The Watchtower is a Bible Society, legally licensed to provide Bibles and Bible literature in quantity to the public. Hardly an idol to anyone I know.....Completely staffed by volunteers, who are Jehovah’s Witnesses....it does a great job at providing all Bible based information at no cost to the public.

You’d be surprised at how many Bible studies are requested every day online at our website. Most are people fed up with their inadequate church system that has no real impact on their lives at all. People want answers to their many questions, and find that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the answers....all firmly based on the Bible.

Can you tell me please what we teach that is not Bible based? What is that we place over Scripture that is idolized? What do we believe that not confirmed by other Scripture? I would be happy to discuss any discrepancies you care to raise.....I can safely say I have examined them all...

 

[Windmill Charge]

....I can safely say I have examined them all...

According to the watch tower tract and bible society the return of Jesus is clearly to be seen in scripture so clearly that he returned in 1914 was due to return in the 1970's, that the Princess mmention3d in Hebrews were so certain of being resurrected that a house/mansion was built for them, until it became clear they were not doming and it was quietly sold.
Then there is the mistranslation of John1:1 that Jesus is " a " God, a mistranslation supported by quoting a medium.

You say they are just a publishing company, you know they are more than that.
They dictate what every jw beli3ves and there pronouncements have more authority than scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

According to the watch tower tract and bible society the return of Jesus is clearly to be seen in scripture so clearly that he returned in 1914 was due to return in the 1970's, that the Princess mmention3d in Hebrews were so certain of being resurrected that a house/mansion was built for them, until it became clear they were not doming and it was quietly sold.

Hang on a minute…..Who told you this? Don’t tell….me let me guess…you got it from a reliable source…? Correct? Have we made mistakes along the way in our timing of events? In our haste for the Kingdom to come, and solve all the woes afflicting the human race, we have in the past had hopes that were not fulfilled, but we make no apology for “keeping on the watch” because Jesus told us to do that. (Matt 24:42-44)

But you seem to have the story all wrong, you see Jesus was to return once not twice as your story wrongly suggests. That’s what happens with second hand information…..it gets to be a bit like Chineses whispers….

The year of Christ’s return is related to the prophesy in Daniel…the very same prophesy that told the Jews when Messiah would make his first appearance in 29 CE. It was prophesied that he would be “cut off“ after three and a half years…..and that is exactly what happened.

The Jews knew from Daniel’s prophesy that Messiah was due and they were expecting him….just not in the manner that he came.….not as a conquering King of noble birth, but as a humble teacher who could perform miracles and address vast crowds with his sermons. He was so persuasive that thousands flocked to hear him and be healed of their sicknesses. He exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders and they hated him enough to want him dead.

What you describe in the mid 70’s was a sifting of Jehovah’s people. As Jesus told Peter, the devil demands a sifting or testing of God’s servants from time to time and God allows it to expose their motivation. (Luke 22:31)

I was a Witness back in the 1970’s and I can say in all honesty that my brothers put forward a possibility that 1975 was the the end of 6000 years since man’s creation in Eden and perhaps it may mean something…. but it was presented as a “wait and see“. We were not instructed to go overboard as some did, and lived to regret their actions. This sifting revealed those who were serving a date, rather than serving Christ for however long the Kingdom would take to bring relief to human suffering.

The Watchtower is our logo because Jesus told his disciples to “keep on the watch”. Watchtowers were a familiar sight in Bible times as guards were posted around the city in those watchtowers so as to alert the residents of any approaching threat. The guard would sound the alarm, and the city’s residents would be on standby awaiting word from the guards whether the ones approaching were friend or foe. If it was a false alarm, it was back to business as usual….no harm done.
People who want to point out things we may or may have done, really don’t understand that this is what we do.….we are a prepared people.

Here we are 50 years further down the track and we are still patiently waiting…Jesus returned in 1914 and all the events that confirmed his “presence” (parousia) have been in evidence ever since then. (Matt 24:3-14)…..Christ’s next appearance will be as judge, with his angelic forces to mete out God’s justice on an unsuspecting world…..he will come right on time, but in his time not ours…..also at an hour we do not expect.

Then there is the mistranslation of John1:1 that Jesus is " a " God, a mistranslation supported by quoting a medium.

Seriously….there is no mistranslation……look up John 1:1 in a good Concordance and see that there are two “gods” mentioned in that verse….only one of them is Jehovah. “The word” was ”with God” (“ho theos“ meaning Jehovah) but the Word was “a divine mighty one” which is the meaning of the word “theos“( a god) in Greek.
”Theos“ is not a word used exclusively for God (Jehovah) Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” (theos) because they operated under his divine authority. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus said he was “the son of God”…never once did he say he was a deity.…or even equal with his God and Father.

You say they are just a publishing company, you know they are more than that.

What do you think the name means…? It’s “The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society”….it is a printery used by Jehovah’s Witnesses….we are not the Watchtower. That is also the name of our monthly magazine that has been in print for well over 100 years….keeping with the theme of the Watchtower’s purpose….to see things afar off and contemplate what they might mean…..always ready to act.

They dictate what every jw beli3ves and there pronouncements have more authority than scripture.

Again, who told you this? We are encouraged to be like the Beroeans who were commended by Paul because they didn’t just accept what he taught, but carefully examined the Scriptures to make sure that what he said was true. We are avid Bible Students because we make sure that what we believe is in line with the entirety of Scripture, not just cherry picked verses.

Our brotherhood is based on the first century model of how the first Christians worshipped. All of our beliefs are Bible based and we can back up every word we preach.
JW’s are a united global brotherhood found in all nations…who speak all in all languages and who worship the same God, and have the same beliefs and practices in thousands of congregation around the world.
We fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:10….how about you?

On what model does your church base its beliefs and practices…? Who dictates what you believe?
Would you like to discuss that at all? I was raised in Christendom so I’ve been on both sides of this fence….and I know where the truth is to be found…not in the disunited rabble that is Christendom, but in the one united global family that I have happily been a part of for over 50 years.

 

[Wick Stick]

I was born in Hong Kong. My father named me Ying Tung. It means something like "should pass through" (with no problem). It probably has some kind of Buddhist significance.

Wow... I just assumed it stood for "YouTube"

 

[Windmill Charge]

Hang on a minute…..Who told you this? Don’t tell….me let me guess…you got it from a reliable source…? Correct? Have we made mistakes along the way in our timing of events? In our haste for the Kingdom to come, and solve all the woes afflicting the human race, we have in the past had hopes that were not fulfilled, but we make no apology for “keeping on the watch” because Jesus told us to do that. (Matt 24:42-44)

But you seem to have the story all wrong, you see Jesus was to return once not twice as your story wrongly suggests. That’s what happens with second hand information…..it gets to be a bit like Chineses whispers….

The year of Christ’s return is related to the prophesy in Daniel…the very same prophesy that told the Jews when Messiah would make his first appearance in 29 CE. It was prophesied that he would be “cut off“ after three and a half years…..and that is exactly what happened.

The Jews knew from Daniel’s prophesy that Messiah was due and they were expecting him….just not in the manner that he came.….not as a conquering King of noble birth, but as a humble teacher who could perform miracles and address vast crowds with his sermons. He was so persuasive that thousands flocked to hear him and be healed of their sicknesses. He exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders and they hated him enough to want him dead.

What you describe in the mid 70’s was a sifting of Jehovah’s people. As Jesus told Peter, the devil demands a sifting or testing of God’s servants from time to time and God allows it to expose their motivation. (Luke 22:31)

I was a Witness back in the 1970’s and I can say in all honesty that my brothers put forward a possibility that 1975 was the the end of 6000 years since man’s creation in Eden and perhaps it may mean something…. but it was presented as a “wait and see“. We were not instructed to go overboard as some did, and lived to regret their actions. This sifting revealed those who were serving a date, rather than serving Christ for however long the Kingdom would take to bring relief to human suffering.

The Watchtower is our logo because Jesus told his disciples to “keep on the watch”. Watchtowers were a familiar sight in Bible times as guards were posted around the city in those watchtowers so as to alert the residents of any approaching threat. The guard would sound the alarm, and the city’s residents would be on standby awaiting word from the guards whether the ones approaching were friend or foe. If it was a false alarm, it was back to business as usual….no harm done.
People who want to point out things we may or may have done, really don’t understand that this is what we do.….we are a prepared people.

Here we are 50 years further down the track and we are still patiently waiting…Jesus returned in 1914 and all the events that confirmed his “presence” (parousia) have been in evidence ever since then. (Matt 24:3-14)…..Christ’s next appearance will be as judge, with his angelic forces to mete out God’s justice on an unsuspecting world…..he will come right on time, but in his time not ours…..also at an hour we do not expect.

Seriously….there is no mistranslation……look up John 1:1 in a good Concordance and see that there are two “gods” mentioned in that verse….only one of them is Jehovah. “The word” was ”with God” (“ho theos“ meaning Jehovah) but the Word was “a divine mighty one” which is the meaning of the word “theos“( a god) in Greek.
”Theos“ is not a word used exclusively for God (Jehovah) Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel “gods” (theos) because they operated under his divine authority. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus said he was “the son of God”…never once did he say he was a deity.…or even equal with his God and Father.

What do you think the name means…? It’s “The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society”….it is a printery used by Jehovah’s Witnesses….we are not the Watchtower. That is also the name of our monthly magazine that has been in print for well over 100 years….keeping with the theme of the Watchtower’s purpose….to see things afar off and contemplate what they might mean…..always ready to act.

Again, who told you this? We are encouraged to be like the Beroeans who were commended by Paul because they didn’t just accept what he taught, but carefully examined the Scriptures to make sure that what he said was true. We are avid Bible Students because we make sure that what we believe is in line with the entirety of Scripture, not just cherry picked verses.

Our brotherhood is based on the first century model of how the first Christians worshipped. All of our beliefs are Bible based and we can back up every word we preach.
JW’s are a united global brotherhood found in all nations…who speak all in all languages and who worship the same God, and have the same beliefs and practices in thousands of congregation around the world.
We fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:10….how about you?

On what model does your church base its beliefs and practices…? Who dictates what you believe?
Would you like to discuss that at all? I was raised in Christendom so I’ve been on both sides of this fence….and I know where the truth is to be found…not in the disunited rabble that is Christendom, but in the one united global family that I have happily been a part of for over 50 years.

If you want the watch tower edditions and page numbers I can supply them so you can look them up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you want the watch tower edditions and page numbers I can supply them so you can look them up.

I can see how gleefully you would love to do that but seriously why would you bother, except to feed whatever it is in you that sparks such a need for that kind of response? Attack is not defense.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Do you have personal acquaintance with Jehovah’s Witnesses or do you make your decisions on hearsay? Do you understand that we make no claim to be prophets? Nor do we have a guarantee of infallibility…..we are humans and we make mistakes sometimes, just as the apostles did, but we live our faith and are out there in the public showing a willingness to sacrifice our time and energy to educate any who want to know about God and his son.…the way Jesus did. He took his message out to the people and taught his disciples to do the same. (Matt 10:11-14) Where are the churches fulfilling the great commission? (Matt 28:19-20)

We are about to face a great global catastrophe….linked to Christ’s return and confirmed by the “sign” he gave…not of his “coming” but of his “presence”…..Jesus told us it would be “just like the days of Noah”, (Matt 24:37-39) despite his preaching and warning of God’s intentions, the whole world of mankind at that time was wiped out and only a “few” obedient ones survived……so we had better make sure that what we believe and practice is what Christ taught….otherwise we will be on the receiving end of a stinging rejection. (Matt 7:13-14, 21-23) Are you ready?

 

[Galgal]

Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cross?

In the book of the prophet Ezekiel the cross is mentioned twice.

And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. (Ezekiel 9:4)

mark - "tav"
‫תָּו
This is the name of the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In Ezekiel's time, this letter was written in pre-Babylonian (Paleo-Hebrew) script:


And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof.
And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred.
And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty.
And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.
(Ezekiel 48:15-18)



The second time we encounter the form of the cross is in the description of a future city in Israel, the city of Yahweh Shammah (Ezekiel 48:35).

 

[Windmill Charge]

Do you understand that we make no claim to be prophets

Sorry but you or the watch tower tract and bible society does.
The Watchtower 1922, July 15th p217 claimed “… this chronology is not of man, but of God…the addition of more proofs removes it entirely from the realm of chance into that of proven certainty…the chronology of present truth [is]… not of human origin."
Speaking of the book, Millions living Now will never Die. That claim is that the discreet and Faithfull s.aves have prophetic authority.

Please note I'm not trying to score points, but to talk about the truth, something the watchtower is keen to do if it 3xposes errors in other church organisation and exposing error is not according to the watchtower and tract bible society, persecution.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry but you or the watch tower tract and bible society does.
The Watchtower 1922, July 15th p217 claimed “… this chronology is not of man, but of God…the addition of more proofs removes it entirely from the realm of chance into that of proven certainty…the chronology of present truth [is]… not of human origin."
Speaking of the book, Millions living Now will never Die. That claim is that the discreet and Faithfull s.aves have prophetic authority.

Please note I'm not trying to score points, but to talk about the truth, something the watchtower is keen to do if it 3xposes errors in other church organisation and exposing error is not according to the watchtower and tract bible society, persecution.

I don’t think you have any idea about who we are or what we teach. If you have to go back to 1922 to find faults, then that is telling us something.....it’s old news. As I said we never claimed to be prophets but in our early understanding we investigated prophesies that were already written.
Our understanding was limited at that time, but as it says in Prov 4:18-19...

“But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.
19  The way of the wicked is like the darkness;
They do not know what makes them stumble.”

When we were beginning to get a grasp on the things that the Bible teaches, as opposed to what it doesn’t, we increased our knowledge and understanding over time, as God allowed.....the book you mention is not even in our library anymore. We have come a long way in our understanding since then. Do you refer to old newspapers for the news of today? Old publications are like that to us. Interesting to look back on, but good to see updates relating to present understanding as knowledge has increased, getting closer to God’s day of judgment.

How about finding something in this century if you want to find fault. Like I said, the Watchtower is a symbol of security...a place from which things are seen afar off, and as they get closer they are identified and either prevented entry, or permitted. This is how we view Bible prophesy.....if things are unidentified clearly from a distance, then we still have the alert sounded just in case....it is part of the preparedness that Jesus told us to have. (Matt 24:43-44)

He then mentions a “faithful and discreet (wise) slave” whom he appointed to feed his entire household their “food at the proper time”....this is spiritual food dispensed to the entire human family of God’s worshippers, keeping them united in their beliefs and conduct. This unity is what identifies Jesus’ true disciples in a world where there are so many masquerading as such, and teaching all manner of differing interpretation of the same Scripture......So Jesus asks, ”who really is” this slave, appointed by the master? Among the pretenders is the “wheat among the weeds”....how do we identify the wheat? “By their fruits” Jesus said....or the kind of people they produce. Are they obedient to all of Christ’s teachings? How are they fulfilling ‘the great commission’? (Matt 28:19-20)

Jesus is about to present himself as judge of all of us.....we will all stand before this one judge who knows exactly where each of us stand as to what we accept as truth and from whom we accepted it.

Jesus tells us that “many” will give their excuses to him on that day, as to why he should not reject them, but he tells them that he “NEVER” knew them.....”never” means “not ever”. That is sobering when we consider the disunited rabble that makes up the global realm of Christendom. “Few” will be found on the cramped and narrow road to life. (Matt 7:13-14) These are important things to consider....

The “wheat” are separate and distinctly different to all of the “weeds” in their many denominations, not accepting their adopted beliefs and practices because we know that they do not originate from God’s written word. So our “fruits” have no worms in them, eating away the truth and making the fruit rotten from within and inedible.

We are out there in every nation teaching the same truth and preaching the same message, obediently serving the same God that Jesus did. The god that Christendom serves is a god of their own invention. He does not exist in reality and those who serve that god are not identified by Jesus as one of his “sheep”....the “goats” have a very different destiny. We choose which category we belong in by the way we worship, and whom we worship. If we do not really know who “the only true God” is, as differentiated from the one he “sent” as savior, then everlasting life will not be ours. (John 17:3)

 

[Windmill Charge]

As I said we never claimed to be prophets

But that is what was claimed. That these things were going to happen and they didn’t.
As you know someone who claims something will happen, if they claim to speak with God's authority and it doesn't happen then they are blasphemous and not God's representative.

This is true of the ' faithful and discreet slave' that is the watchtower and tract bible society.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But that is what was claimed. That these things were going to happen and they didn’t.
As you know someone who claims something will happen, if they claim to speak with God's authority and it doesn't happen then they are blasphemous and not God's representative.

This is true of the ' faithful and discreet slave' that is the watchtower and tract bible society.

What we got wrong was the timing of one prophesy…..but so did the apostles….understanding is progressive….when Jesus was ascending to Heaven the apostles thought he was going to set up the Kingdom on earth there and then (Acts 1:6).….but here we are still waiting almost 2000 years later…..now we understand why…. we have gained much knowledge as the end draws near. (Prov 4:18)

The “faithful and discreet slave“ are appointed by Jesus to “feed” his entire household of fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”…the slave exists so who is he? Jesus asked the same question….(Matt 24:45)
Who is he to you?
I have told you several times that the WTBTS is the legal entity required by law to print Bibles and Bible literature in quantity. The Watchrtower Society is used by the “slave” to publish Bibles and Bible study aids.
We are Jehovah’s Witnesses and true to our name, we are witnesses for Jehovah, sent out by Jesus Christ and fulfilling the great.commission……are you? (Matt 28:19-20)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can we understand that the instrument used to put the son of God to death is relatively unimportant unless we want to make an idol of it.
What was God’s command…..?
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (NASB)

What part of “any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth” are many missing here? NO images were to be made that are used in worship…period!

Who can argue that the cross is an image used in worship?

It doesn’t matter whether it was any of the shapes that have been put forward…..it was Jesus’ death that paid the ransom….and the instrument used to kill him is irrelevant.

If Christ had been hung, would we now see a gallows on every church and one with Jesus swinging from a rope on Catholic churches?
If he had been executed in modern times by firing squad, would we have a rifle hanging around our necks? Or if it was a lethal injection…a syringe? How ridiculous do we have to get when the instruction from God himself was to “MAKE NO IMAGES”….?

Its a simple command….but one that humans cannot seem to obey.

The elephant in the room has been identified….do you see it?

God’s Commandment was NOT against making images. It wasn’t even against making images USED in worship. It was against the worship of images as gods.

God commanded Moses to make 2 Golden Cherubim to plat on top of the Ark – which was used in worship (Exod. 25:18). The people bowed before the Ark because God was on the Mercy Seat.

As for the cross of Christ – He was executed on what is called a Crux Immissa.
The Romans crucified criminals in a number of ways:
Crux Simplex – A single vertical pole.
Crux Commissa – Shaped like a capital “T”.
Crux Immissa – The traditional cross shape with top extended.
Crux Decussata – An “X” shape, like the one Andrew was hung on.

They can ALL be referred to as a “Stauros:.

The earlies depiction of Jesus’s crucifixion is called the Alexamenos Graffito.
It dates all the way back to the end of the 1st century. It shows a traditional cross.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God’s Commandment was NOT against making images. It wasn’t even against making images USED in worship. It was against the worship of images as gods.

The command was clear…in Hebrew, the word used in Exodus 20:4 is “pesel” which is given the definition….
“graven image…carved image”
Not only that but in the Jewish Tanakh, it says in Exodus 20:4….
“4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

”No image of any likeness“ which was known to man. You cannot excuse blatant disobedience to this serious command by claiming that that your church isn’t full of idols that are involved in your worship.


If this is not idolatry, then I don’t know what else you would call it.

God commanded Moses to make 2 Golden Cherubim to plat on top of the Ark – which was used in worship (Exod. 25:18). The people bowed before the Ark because God was on the Mercy Seat.

And who saw this ark with its Cherubs, but Moses when God spoke to him in the chamber where no other human could go?…..and those who were impressed into service to construct it, never saw it completed.

What was the method used to transport this ark when it was relocated? No human hands could touch it or they would die. (Someone did) Only the priests could carry it with poles inserted into rings.
No human was to see this ark because it was covered up with seal skins to hide it from view. Only God’s anointed one had access to it. Therefore it would never become an object of worship.

As for the cross of Christ – He was executed on what is called a Crux Immissa.
The Romans crucified criminals in a number of ways:
Crux Simplex – A single vertical pole.
Crux Commissa – Shaped like a capital “T”.
Crux Immissa – The traditional cross shape with top extended.
Crux Decussata – An “X” shape, like the one Andrew was hung on.

They can ALL be referred to as a “Stauros:.

Regardless of what the instrument was upon which Christ was impaled, no one was to make an idol of it.



No one seems to think it strange to glorify the instrument used to put someone they love to death….what if Jesus had been hung? Would your church have an image of a gallows with Jesus swinging from the rope?
Its bizarre to say the least.

The earlies depiction of Jesus’s crucifixion is called the Alexamenos Graffito.
It dates all the way back to the end of the 1st century. It shows a traditional cross.

Yes…”traditional” is the operative word…and that is where the problem lies…tradition is substituted for truth.
The Bible does not designate what type of stauros was used. A “stauros” in Greek is an upright stake, like the paling of a fence. Like the word “xylon”, also used for the torture stake of the Christ, means a “tree”.
Who wants to give it another meaning?

“Tradition” was also the undoing of the Jewish faith which Jesus roundly condemned (Matt 15:7-9)….the traditions they adopted were man-made…..not scriptural at all but a misinterpretation of scripture to justify their departure from the truth of God’s word…..he called them “hypocrites” and rightly so.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have a much bigger problem in their midst than the
design of the apparatus used to execute Jesus, to wit: it is their sincere
belief that his crucified dead body is still dead, viz: it has never yet to this
day been restored to life, and its remains are squirreled away somewhere on
earth in a condition, and a location, known only to God.

It is also their sincere belief that Jesus' so-called post resurrection appearances
were done by an angel in disguise, viz: the angel appeared to Jesus' friends cloaked
in a Christ-like avatar-- a.k.a. a materialized body --that was in all respects, including
scars and injuries, a perfect duplicate of Jesus' actual body.
_