Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation

[Ritajanice]

You have to post scripture that states that a person must be born again FIRST
and THEN they can believe.

How can you believe God is who he says he is?

You said you believe first, so tell me how?

Here's what you're doing by your statements:

View attachment 52254

 

[GodsGrace]

Because they aren’t Born Again.

Wrong answer.
Why are they not born again?

..the natural man is alienated from the Spirit of God?.yes or no?
I asked you why you deny this scripture.

I don't deny what is true.
The natural man is alienated from God.

This doesn't tell me WHY or HOW he can become aligned with God's spirit.
Let's take this a step at a time.
Let's concentrate on Romans 1.

1 Corinthians 12:3New King James Version (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

The above is true.
But it's NOT SUPPORTING what you're stating.

It has NOTHING TO DO with what we're discussing.
Later....

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you believe God is who he says he is?

You said you believe first, so tell me how?

Romans 1:19-20 tells you how.
I'd like to concentrate on this verse please.

 

[Ritajanice]

Wrong answer.
Why are they not born again?

Then show me the answer?..instead of saying wrong answer..?

I don't deny what is true.
The natural man is alienated from God.

This doesn't tell me WHY or HOW he can become aligned with God's spirit.
Let's take this a step at a time.
Let's concentrate on Romans 1.

What do you mean, how do we become aligned with Gods Spirit.thats not biblical.

The above is true.
But it's NOT SUPPORTING what you're stating.

Then why aren’t you explaining..if what you say is true.wheres the discussion?

It has NOTHING TO DO with what we're discussing.
Later....

Then start another thread and explain.

You haven’t explained one thing, where I am in error.. being Born Again is a very important part of being in Christ..this subject I will debate non stop with you...it’s my passion...I can’t get enough of it.

Where @GodsGrace would you like to debate this subject?

The problem is though I’m trying to understand how you know God...unfortunately you haven’t explained how you know him?

If you can’t explain that, what’s the point of discussing?

This scripture is certainly not explaining how we are Born Of The Spirit.

Romans 1:19-20​

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King James Version​

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19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What is the meaning of Roman 1?
Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome is a thorough and clear presentation of the gospel, or "good news," about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul identifies himself as both a servant of Jesus and an apostle, representing Christ's authority and message to others.



What has this got to do with being Born Of The Spirit above?

How about we discuss this scripture also...where shall we discuss?

Romans 8

King James Version

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Behold]

You have to post scripture that states that a person must be born again FIRST
and THEN they can believe.


Here's what you're doing by your statements:

View attachment 52254

And when did God forgive her sin?, as God can't do that until you give God your FAITH, first.

So, she's teaching that while she was still a sinner, UNFORGIVEN>.. God gave her spiritual union with Himself (born again) so that She could then BELIEVE In God and trust in Christ by Faith.

That is "the Gospel in Reverse". "Born again in Sin, to be able to believe in Christ, later, by faith".

Welcome to : Calvinism

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 1:19-20 tells you how.
I'd like to concentrate on this verse please.

I would also like to concentrate on heart/ spirit knowledge?

Are you teaching that we don’t need to know God in our spirit/ heart, I think we need to get this out of the way, before we start another topic / thread?

If we aren’t on the same page regarding that knowledge. We will just be going round in circles..I’m not prepared to do that..

Personally,I think you and I understand being Born Again very differently....it seems like we do, is it really worth discussing?....

We’re both rock solid in our beliefs, and it’s pretty obvious we clash...over what we believe...don’t you agree?..is it really worth continuing in our debate?

I don’t mind as long as we keep it civilised and not get personal, anyway let me know.

 

[Ritajanice]

Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65).

 

[GodsGrace]

He does it to cause Strife.

Look at the title of This Thread... Its an attack on the "Gift of Salvation".. and He calls it "Spiritual Extortion".



Its always been that you have Truth and you have the other.




I think that before i could agree with your post, you would have to list a few "core belief's of Christianity" that were disintegrated by the "Reformation"

Like what?

Agreed on the rest so I'll just reply to the core beliefs of Christianity.
I want to say that the bible does seem to have some conflicting verses....so
I went to the ECFs and read up on what didn't seem very clear.
I say "seem" because I believe all is very clear,,,but if we could debate it, it simply means
that it isn't.

So... the core beliefs from either the NT writers, or those that came immediately after who were taught by the Apostles.
I'm sure this won't be an exhaustive list and I already know we won't be agreeing on 2 items...

1. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus is God.
2. The NT speaks of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It took some time to get a good understanding, but it would be the Trinity...some like to call it the Godhead.
3. God invites all men to salvation.
4. Jesus died so that all humanity could have the opportunity to be saved.
5. Once saved, we must act/behave like Christians...show love...do good works/deeds.
6. The resurrection.
7. We must be baptized - for whatever reason,,,but Jesus did command it.
8. It's possible to walk away from God...He doesn't leave us...but we could leave Him.
9. We must confess our sins to God or to one another and we must forgive.

Can't think of anything else right now,,,but I'm sure there's more.
I dare to say that anything that deviates from the above was not believed by the early church.

Yes, its always the case that a verse, or 2 or 3,.....are misunderstood or they are misused on purpose by a MAN, who creates a teaching.
This becomes a Cult, eventually,........... once enough people believe it.


Well, regarding the forum....we are "here" because there are a handful of topics that are allowed on most Forums, that generate all the arguing and the anger.

If you end those Topics, if you ban them from Discussion..... you end not only the fighting, but you end the daily reason that bring a good portion of the people back to the forum everyday.
They wont stick around and that is good for the Forum and for the members.
See...They are not here to learn, .. They are here to grind the Dull Axe Head of their Theology, into the Forum, and then fight with whomever responds.
That is their carnal need.. and they have to feed it all the time, here... and on most forums, that allow certain Topics, that brings these types around, daily.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would also like to concentrate on heart/ spirit knowledge?

Are you teaching that we don’t need to know God in our spirit/ heart, I think we need to get this out of the way, before we start another topic / thread?

If we aren’t on the same page regarding that knowledge. We will just be going round in circles..I’m not prepared to do that..

Personally,I think you and I understand being Born Again very differently....it seems like we do, is it really worth discussing?....

We’re both rock solid in our beliefs, and it’s pretty obvious we clash...over what we believe...don’t you agree?..is it really worth continuing in our debate?

I don’t mind as long as we keep it civilised and not get personal, anyway let me know.

YES RJ....I think it's very important to state the truth that is found in the NT.

I'm not teaching anything here....I teach kids but I don't see any kids around here.

So.
Romans 1:19-20

You said that some are saved but the wrath of God is on those that are not saved.
OK
WHY are they not saved?

What exactly does Romans 1:19-20 state?

It's difficult to speak to reformed persons because they end up all over the place.
Let's stick to this and see where it takes us.
It takes a little courage to go where the scripture takes us....

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65).

Right. But let's stay on Romans for now and then we'll tackle John 6:44....
which asks the question WHO IS DRAWN BY THE FATHER?
All or just a select few?

But not now.
You think you're not calvinist in theology...
or
You know you are and think you're leading me around.

Back to Romans 1.....
WHY are some not saved?

 

[Ritajanice]

YES RJ....I think it's very important to state the truth that is found in the NT.

I'm not teaching anything here....I teach kids but I don't see any kids around here.

So.
Romans 1:19-20

You said that some are saved but the wrath of God is on those that are not saved.
OK
WHY are they not saved?

What exactly does Romans 1:19-20 state?

It's difficult to speak to reformed persons because they end up all over the place.

Show me where I’ve ended up all over the place...show me my errors?

Let's stick to this and see where it takes us.
It takes a little courage to go where the scripture takes us....

Before I go any further with you. do you understand heart/ spirit knowledge, that comes by divine heart revelation?

 

[GodsGrace]

And when did God forgive her sin?, as God can't do that until you give God your FAITH, first.

So, she's teaching that while she was still a sinner, UNFORGIVEN>.. God gave her spiritual union with Himself (born again) so that She could then BELIEVE In God and trust in Christ by Faith.

That is "the Gospel in Reverse". "Born again in Sin, to be able to believe in Christ, later, by faith".

Welcome to : Calvinism

Of course. God cannot join Himself to sin.
A person must REPENT first....then he is forgiven of sin.
Repentance, Faith and Belief come BEFORE salvation....

It's so plain in Ephesians 2:8-9 but, as you've stated many times, some are totally blind to plain scripture.

Calvinism teaches that a person cannot seek God and has no free will of their own...
so...
God must make them born again first....then they repent and believe and have faith.

IT'S BACKWARDS!!

And every denomination knows this except for the reformed.

 

[Ritajanice]

Right. But let's stay on Romans for now and then we'll tackle John 6:44....
which asks the question WHO IS DRAWN BY THE FATHER?
All or just a select few?

But not now.
You think you're not calvinist in theology...
or
You know you are and think you're leading me around.

Back to Romans 1.....
WHY are some not saved?

You haven’t answered my questions, it’s pointless discussing with you if you don’t understand spirit / heart knowledge, that’s what being Born Again is all about...spirit knowledge that comes from the Holy Spirit?

We are Spirit led.

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me where I’ve ended up all over the place...show me my errors?

Before I go any further with you. do you understand heart/ spirit knowledge, that comes by divine heart revelation?

I have to pass a test to be able to speak to you?

WHY do you not speak to Romans 1?

I'll tell you why....
Because if you do,,,it'll lead you down the correct path and you're afraid of the correct path.

WHY were some in Romans 1 lost?
Why was the wrath of God on them?

 

[GodsGrace]

You haven’t answered my questions, it’s pointless discussing with you if you don’t understand spirit / heart knowledge, that’s what being Born Again is all about...spirit knowledge that comes from the Holy Spirit?

RJ
If you want to learn Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be...
then you're going to have to face the New Testament Scriptures and believe THOSE
instead of some persons that are teaching you Calvinism.

Let's stick to the scriptures.

The NT states that we are to be ready to give an answer to the hope that we have.
1 Peter 3:15

Are YOU ready to go down the path of knowledge that is purely scriptural??

 

[Ritajanice]

I have to pass a test to be able to speak to you?

You have to have understanding of heart / spirit knowledge, that’s all I asked..
Otherwise I can’t discuss with you...
There can be no discussion with you..until you understand in the spirit/ heart.

WHY do you not speak to Romans 1?

I'll tell you why....
Because if you do,,,it'll lead you down the correct path and you're afraid of the correct path.

Show me my errors?...you’ve yet to post them..

WHY were some in Romans 1 lost?
Why was the wrath of God on them?

 

[Ritajanice]

RJ
If you want to learn Christianity the way Jesus meant it to be...
then you're going to have to face the New Testament Scriptures and believe THOSE
instead of some persons that are teaching you Calvinism.

Let's stick to the scriptures.

The NT states that we are to be ready to give an answer to the hope that we have.
1 Peter 3:15

I am still waiting for you to show me my errors?

Are YOU ready to go down the path of knowledge that is purely scriptural??

Heart / knowledge ,spirit knowledge is my food..not self taught religion.

One needs to know the Spirit of God in their heart, you don’t seem to teach this..you don’t even seem to know what it means.....Spirit gives birth to spirit....therefore you are in error.

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Message by the Spirit’s Power 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. Spiritual Wisdom (Ephesians 1:15–23) 6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b 10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”d But we have the mind of Christ.

Good day...

 

[GodsGrace]

I am still waiting for you to show me my errors?



Heart / knowledge ,spirit knowledge is my food..not self taught religion.

One needs to know the Spirit of God in their heart, you don’t seem to teach this..therefore you are in error.
Good day...

Yes.
Fear of the truth.

Guess YOU are the only one with the spirit of God in your heart.
Everyone that does not agree with you must surely be missing the spirit of God in their heart.
Yeah....

So we run from the truth instead of facing it.
Which is what you're doing right now.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m in the truth.
Short commentary.
the Holy Spirit's dynamic power applies the truth of Scripture, resulting in a confident assurance in the Word itself (1 Cor 2:4-16).

IF you're confident in the Word of God...
Why won't you go through Romans 1:19-20 with me?

Where did I say that you had to agree with me..I asked you questions about the heart.thats all I’ve done, ,,for some reason you won’t answer, plus I never said any of this, it’s your own accusation of me.

GG said.
Everyone that does not agree with you must surely be missing the spirit of God in their heart.
Yeah....

This is what you're inferring.
You're inferring that I don't have the spirit of God in my heart and thus do not understand His word.

Not at all...I never said I’m the only one with the Spirit Of God in my heart, you said that.

All I’ve done is ask you questions about the heart of God..sadly you run from my questions,

Plus I’m still waiting for you to show me my errors.. I’m going to end this now..getting personal is not edifying.

We need to understand that every one is at different levels of understanding in the spirit.

Good day..

NO RJ
We are NOT at different levels of understanding.
YOU are at a WRONG level of understanding....

but the sad part is that you're not willing to find out the truth.

You believe in predestination...
Do you believe that it's God that has predestined you from discussing Romans 1 with me?
Why would He do that?
Doesn't God WANT us to understand His word?

Good night.

 

[Ritajanice]

If you walk away from the church

2. God reveals himself to us through the Holy Spirit​

I have walked away from a few churches, had a terrible experience in one.

I was a new babe at the time.

I’ve been praying that the Spirit leads me to another church..

How about you, are you a church goer?