Offenders in the kingdom

[grafted branch]

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Also see Matthew 5:20 & 18:3).

I have a question, how did those that offend and do iniquity get into the kingdom? Is it possible to be born of water and Spirit and not be saved?

A clue might be found in the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. In verse 11-12 the king sees a man without a wedding garment and asks him how he came in without a garment, but no explanation of how that happened is given.

So, how do those that offend get into the kingdom?

 

[Davidpt]

It seems rather simple and straightforward to me. Not once saved always saved(NOSAS) explains a lot of it, or maybe even all of it.

 

[grafted branch]

It seems rather simple and straightforward to me. Not once saved always saved(NOSAS) explains a lot of it, or maybe even all of it.

Yea, I knew that was going to come up. I’m personally a OSAS person and I don’t want to debate that here.

I will agree with you that a NOSAS view can give a good explanation for this while still having the angels gather out the offenders in the future.

Let’s see what the OSAS group has to say about this.

 

[Marty fox]

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Also see Matthew 5:20 & 18:3).

I have a question, how did those that offend and do iniquity get into the kingdom? Is it possible to be born of water and Spirit and not be saved?

A clue might be found in the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. In verse 11-12 the king sees a man without a wedding garment and asks him how he came in without a garment, but no explanation of how that happened is given.

So, how do those that offend get into the kingdom?

Check your version that you used because the NKJ and others says only those who see the kingdom of God Not enter the kingdom of God

The context also shows they they were false not true saints

 

[tailgator]

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Also see Matthew 5:20 & 18:3).

I have a question, how did those that offend and do iniquity get into the kingdom? Is it possible to be born of water and Spirit and not be saved?

A clue might be found in the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14. In verse 11-12 the king sees a man without a wedding garment and asks him how he came in without a garment, but no explanation of how that happened is given.

So, how do those that offend get into the kingdom?

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


He is talking about the promised land.The land promised to Abraham and his seed for an everlasting possession.

The inhabitants of the promised land who do not belong to Christ will be cast out .


Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[tailgator]

Here are some of the people who remain in the promised land after Jesus comes and the beast and it's people are cast into a fire in revelation 19.

These inherit the promised land for an everlasting possession.


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[tailgator]

Is at the sound of the seventh Trump when Abraham,Issac ,Jacob and the prophets of God recieve the promised land for an everlasting possession.They have not received it yet.This is the kingdom Jesus was speaking of.

Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[grafted branch]

Check your version that you used because the NKJ and others says only those who see the kingdom of God Not enter the kingdom of God

The context also shows they they were false not true saints

Nearly every translation on Biblehub has “enter the kingdom” for John 3:5, including NKJ.

John 3:5 (NKJ) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

There are other verses such as Matthew 18:3 that also suggest salvation is necessary to enter the kingdom.

Matthew 18:3 (NKJ) and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[grafted branch]

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


He is talking about the promised land.The land promised to Abraham and his seed for an everlasting possession.

The inhabitants of the promised land who do not belong to Christ will be cast out .


Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

If I understand you correctly, you’re placing the parable of the weeds, in Matthew 13, as taking place in the millennium, correct? If so how does Satan sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

 

[tailgator]

If I understand you correctly, you’re placing the parable of the weeds, in Matthew 13, as taking place in the millennium, correct? If so how does Satan sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

No,your not understanding me correctly.

The weeds are removed in revelation 19 when the beast and all its people are cast into a fire.
After the beast is cast into a lake of fire ,then the righteous shine forth in Jesus's kingdom in revelation 20.

Jesus is speaking of the promised land,where many weeds are growing today.

 

[grafted branch]

No,your not understanding me correctly.

The weeds are removed in revelation 19 when the beast and all its people are cast into a fire.
After the beast is cast into a lake of fire ,then the righteous shine forth in Jesus's kingdom in revelation 20.

Jesus is speaking of the promised land,where many weeds are growing today.

Ok, so currently there are unsaved people in the kingdom of God? Is that your view?

 

[The PuP]

To me is really simple. The angels that Jesus sends to purge from his kingdom (that he is about to inherit [at the 7th trumpet] those that do iniquity and offend) are the 7 angels of the 7 trumpets.

Zec 1:18-19 KJV 18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.-----> [TRUMPETS!] 19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[grafted branch]

To me is really simple. The angels that Jesus sends to purge from his kingdom (that he is about to inherit [at the 7th trumpet] those that do iniquity and offend) are the 7 angels of the 7 trumpets.

Zec 1:18-19 KJV 18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.-----> [TRUMPETS!] 19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

Be Blessed
The PuP

Sure, so how did those who offend get into the kingdom in the first place?

 

[Davidpt]

Ok, so currently there are unsaved people in the kingdom of God? Is that your view?

Apparently, your view, the fact you are of the OSAS camp, doesn't allow for anyone to have a chance to initially enter the kingdom of God then prove themselves worthy or not worthy after having entered. Your view makes God unfair instead of God giving everyone a chance to enter the kingdom of God, meaning those that willfully desire to. You need to read Matthew 7 again and keep reading it until you understand it properly. All those in that chapter who Jesus said He never knew them are meaning ones who have entered the kingdom of God willfully but have failed to prove themselves worthy of it in the end.

The doctrine of 'OSAS only' being Biblical is from the pit of hell from satan himself. I'm not saying OSAS is not Biblical. I'm saying it is not Biblical if it means there are no exceptions, thus if it means NOSAS is not Biblical. Both are Biblical, except the OSAS camp denies it. The NOSAS camp doesn't deny it.

But you want to try and get around this somehow because in your mind only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS is not Biblical. You would think one should be placing the truth above their doctrines instead of the other way around.

 

[Marty fox]

Nearly every translation on Biblehub has “enter the kingdom” for John 3:5, including NKJ.

John 3:5 (NKJ) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

There are other verses such as Matthew 18:3 that also suggest salvation is necessary to enter the kingdom.

Matthew 18:3 (NKJ) and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The verse in the OP is on the last day the judgement day the ones cast out are the ones in the church but not of the church the unrepentant

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[grafted branch]

Apparently, your view, the fact you are of the OSAS camp, doesn't allow for anyone to have a chance to initially enter the kingdom of God then prove themselves worthy or not worthy after having entered. Your view makes God unfair instead of God giving everyone a chance to enter the kingdom of God, meaning those that willfully desire to. You need to read Matthew 7 again and keep reading it until you understand it properly. All those in that chapter who Jesus said He never knew them are meaning ones who have entered the kingdom of God willfully but have failed to prove themselves worthy of it in the end.

The doctrine of 'OSAS only' being Biblical is from the pit of hell from satan himself. I'm not saying OSAS is not Biblical. I'm saying it is not Biblical if it means there are no exceptions, thus if it means NOSAS is not Biblical. Both are Biblical, except the OSAS camp denies it. The NOSAS camp doesn't deny it.

But you want to try and get around this somehow because in your mind only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS is not Biblical. You would think one should be placing the truth above their doctrines instead of the other way around.

Let’s look at Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Prior to the cross people were entering the kingdom by way of the Law. At some point the scribes and Pharisees didn’t allow anyone to enter the kingdom, that is why it was impossible to enter the kingdom unless a person was born again when Jesus spoke those words.

After the cross it was impossible to enter the kingdom through the Law because the new covenant went into effect. So the offenders entered the kingdom through the Law, prior to the scribes and Pharisees, and were purged in 70AD.

Thus a OSAS view does work with all the scriptures on this subject.

 

[grafted branch]

The verse in the OP is on the last day the judgement day the ones cast out are the ones in the church but not of the church the unrepentant

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So how do the offenders get into the kingdom in the first place? John 3:5 tells us only born again people can enter the kingdom.

 

[tailgator]

Ok, so currently there are unsaved people in the kingdom of God? Is that your view?

The kingdom of God has not been established in the promised land yet .That does not take place till the seventh Trump.

When the promised land is given to Christ ,then all the weeds in that kingdom are burned up.


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever






The kingdom of this world which shall be the kingdom of God in revelation 11:15 is full of weeds today.Unsaved people.

 

[grafted branch]

The kingdom of God has not been established in the promised land yet .That does not take place till the seventh Trump.

When the promised land is given to Christ ,then all the weeds in that kingdom are burned up.


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever






The kingdom of this world which shall be the kingdom of God in revelation 11:15 is full of weeds today.Unsaved people.

In Matthew 13:24-25 a man sowed good seed in His field, then the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.

If the kingdom hasn’t been established yet and only takes place in a future millennium then that is when Satan will sow the tares. How can Satan do that when he is in the bottomless pit?

 

[Marty fox]

So how do the offenders get into the kingdom in the first place? John 3:5 tells us only born again people can enter the kingdom.

Just like us we our in the world but not of the world

There are many people who attend church but are unrepentant thus they are in the church (kingdom)but not of the church