First fruits of them that slept(the first resurection)

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rebuilder 454

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God Says the Body of Christ are the 12 Tribes of Revelation chapter 7

BELIEVE what God Says and reject the false doctrines of men.
Well, just pretend that the dynamic of "the times of the Gentiles completed" and God turning his attention to the Jews, ( the Wayward wife), is Just Jesus batting the air.

You know this is interesting, because what we have just stumbled on is that your Doctrine has no provision for that dynamic. Your Doctrine does not recognize in Romans chapters 9 and 10 and 11 that when the times of the Gentiles is completed that God turns his attention to the Jews.
He States in Romans that the Jew will be grafted back in ,and that they are only cut off for a season, and blinded.
Now I find that amazing that the post-trib rapture doctrine has robbed its followers of such basic understanding.

I don't think any of you realize or probably even care, that the tribulation, Is specifically designed to run a plow through the Jewish Covenant people.
That is the purpose of the tribulation period.

the pre-tribulation rapture, and then the subsequent martyrdom of those Left Behind, is in fact the times of the Gentiles completed. It just flat out amazes me of what that Doctrine has robbed you people of.
 

tailgator

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After the tribulation Jesus comes from heaven on white horses with millions of saints that is in Revelation 19 and Revelation 19 is after the tribulation. I don't know what you're trying to prove with that passage of scripture from Matthew 24, but you basically just declared that angels are gathering in heaven after the tribulation. I hope you're not trying to transpose that on to Jesus Gathering from Earth. I hope you're not trying to twist that verse around
I believe exactly what Jesus says because Jesus is correct

Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




After the tribulation Jesus comes and sends his angels to gather his elect.This is the harvest of the first fruits.The angels are the harvesters.

Mathew 13:39
The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.




I hope your not trying to say Jesus is wrong because he is not.
 

Timtofly

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There are no resurrected bodies in Revelation until you get to chapter 20.
That is because no one had needed to be resurrected since the Cross. No one needs a resurrection at the rapture/Second Coming because no one in Christ is dead. They are all in heaven and will come with Jesus.

Those beheaded are beheaded after the 7th Trumpet, and after the final harvest. They are not of the church, nor of Israel, but the left overs after the Gentile harvest of the 7 Thunders.

Since you are post trib, you would be one of those beheaded waiting for a resurrection, while the church is waiting for you in heaven, since the 5th Seal.

Revelation 6:11

"And white robes were given unto every one of them (the pre-trib raptured church); and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren (you the beheaded after the final harvest from Satan's 42 months of AoD), that should be killed (removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh) as they were, should be fulfilled."

Those alive on the earth at the rapture, the 5th Seal, will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The final harvest happens during the time of Jacob's trouble during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The harvest of the church happened from the Cross until the 5th Seal. The last 2 millenia has been the tribulation of those days the great tribulation by length, not by intensity. Jacob's trouble is not for the church, but Jacob.
 

David in NJ

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That is because no one had needed to be resurrected since the Cross. No one needs a resurrection at the rapture/Second Coming because no one in Christ is dead. They are all in heaven and will come with Jesus.

Those beheaded are beheaded after the 7th Trumpet, and after the final harvest. They are not of the church, nor of Israel, but the left overs after the Gentile harvest of the 7 Thunders.

Since you are post trib, you would be one of those beheaded waiting for a resurrection, while the church is waiting for you in heaven, since the 5th Seal.

Revelation 6:11

"And white robes were given unto every one of them (the pre-trib raptured church); and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren (you the beheaded after the final harvest from Satan's 42 months of AoD), that should be killed (removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh) as they were, should be fulfilled."

Those alive on the earth at the rapture, the 5th Seal, will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The final harvest happens during the time of Jacob's trouble during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The harvest of the church happened from the Cross until the 5th Seal. The last 2 millenia has been the tribulation of those days the great tribulation by length, not by intensity. Jacob's trouble is not for the church, but Jacob.
That is because no one had needed to be resurrected since the Cross. No one needs a resurrection at the rapture/Second Coming because no one in Christ is dead.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

tailgator

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Which Israel?

Not the beast but the people of Israel who overcome.

Genesis 32:28
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

David in NJ

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Not the beast but the people of Israel who overcome.

Genesis 32:28
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
"Him that overcometh"

Is this only for a Jew of the flesh seed of Abraham?
 

tailgator

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"Him that overcometh"

Is this only for a Jew of the flesh seed of Abraham?
Unlike an Israeli who is governed by the beast,I don't have much to overcome.Im not going to be put in prison and killed for testifying of Jesus in the beasts kingdom because I don't live in the beasts kingdom.

I'm not going to be persecuted throughout all the cities of Israel before Christ comes.


Mathew 10
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.



Most of what Jesus tells his disciples in Israel does not concern me.My family is not going to betray me to death as the followers of Christ in the land of Israel .
 

Timtofly

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But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Jesus does not bring dead bodies with Him, but living bodies. They are all alive because they never tasted death like those in the OT. Do you think the NT Covenant makes one dead, or one alive?

Explain why there cannot be physical bodies in heaven one minute, and then a second later they are allowed? That makes no sense.

When the OT redeemed left sheol in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, they never left those bodies. They were made alive in Christ as the firstfruits. They would have ascended to Paradise, as they are not still alive on earth somewhere.

Paul never wrote those who sleep in Christ rise from the earth. They rise from Paradise and are alive, and they come with Jesus. The only ones who rise from the earth are those alive. At the rapture, do those physically alive come out of graves on the earth? Why would those physically alive in heaven come out of graves in heaven? Why would there be graves in Paradise to come out of?


There is not a single verse that says souls without bodies come to earth to find a body. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is found in heaven, not on the earth. Lazarus and all the OT already had their physical resurrection, and that was the only time other than those beheaded in Revelation 20, when souls on earth receive a permanent incorruptible physical body after physical death. Those in Revelation 20:4 never enter heaven.

Since the Cross, the redemption of the body is at physical death. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is left on the earth and the union with death is dissolved. The union with life is immediate, because the second birth already guarantees eternal life, even physical life. The only reason Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life is because resurrection is immediate and sure, upon physical death.

To say the soul is without a physical body, is to declare that those in heaven are still in a state of death. When Paul uses the terms dead in Christ and those asleep, it does not mean their current status in Paradise. That is their relationship to those still physically on the earth. Paul would not contradict nor make void the teaching of Jesus already established.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

If one is already alive, how can they die, or remain in death?

Paul uses the physical terms to say people do physically die. But Paul never intended to say the soul remained physically dead. That is a misunderstanding and wrong interpretation propagated by the church throughout time. Name one NT author, or early church father, prior to catholicism who taught souls were still subject to enter Abraham's bosom, and wait until a final resurrection? Or that all souls even the OT redeemed were still waiting in Abraham's bosom? We only have one text where Paul wrote that Jesus descended into sheol and led captivity captive. The other text is in 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul said there was an order to those made alive starting with Christ the firstfruits. Many today deny that the OT redeemed were those firstfruits.

Scripture is not totally void of a resurrection at the Cross, it is just not that explicit nor spelled out. So many still see souls as being in a state of death, even though Jesus taught otherwise. Those in Paradise have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple since the first century. That is a physical attribute, not symbolic of naked souls walking around without a physical body. The tree of life is physical not symbolic. They would have physical bodies just as much as the tree of life is physical. The Cross did make the physical resurrection available. Not that souls had to keep waiting for 3,000 years to receive a physical body.

Many had already been waiting in Abraham's bosom for over 3,000 years, for the Cross to receive a physical resurrection. That was not extended for another 3,000 years.
 

David in NJ

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Jesus does not bring dead bodies with Him, but living bodies. They are all alive because they never tasted death like those in the OT. Do you think the NT Covenant makes one dead, or one alive?

Explain why there cannot be physical bodies in heaven one minute, and then a second later they are allowed? That makes no sense.

When the OT redeemed left sheol in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, they never left those bodies. They were made alive in Christ as the firstfruits. They would have ascended to Paradise, as they are not still alive on earth somewhere.

Paul never wrote those who sleep in Christ rise from the earth. They rise from Paradise and are alive, and they come with Jesus. The only ones who rise from the earth are those alive. At the rapture, do those physically alive come out of graves on the earth? Why would those physically alive in heaven come out of graves in heaven? Why would there be graves in Paradise to come out of?


There is not a single verse that says souls without bodies come to earth to find a body. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is found in heaven, not on the earth. Lazarus and all the OT already had their physical resurrection, and that was the only time other than those beheaded in Revelation 20, when souls on earth receive a permanent incorruptible physical body after physical death. Those in Revelation 20:4 never enter heaven.

Since the Cross, the redemption of the body is at physical death. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is left on the earth and the union with death is dissolved. The union with life is immediate, because the second birth already guarantees eternal life, even physical life. The only reason Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life is because resurrection is immediate and sure, upon physical death.

To say the soul is without a physical body, is to declare that those in heaven are still in a state of death. When Paul uses the terms dead in Christ and those asleep, it does not mean their current status in Paradise. That is their relationship to those still physically on the earth. Paul would not contradict nor make void the teaching of Jesus already established.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

If one is already alive, how can they die, or remain in death?

Paul uses the physical terms to say people do physically die. But Paul never intended to say the soul remained physically dead. That is a misunderstanding and wrong interpretation propagated by the church throughout time. Name one NT author, or early church father, prior to catholicism who taught souls were still subject to enter Abraham's bosom, and wait until a final resurrection? Or that all souls even the OT redeemed were still waiting in Abraham's bosom? We only have one text where Paul wrote that Jesus descended into sheol and led captivity captive. The other text is in 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul said there was an order to those made alive starting with Christ the firstfruits. Many today deny that the OT redeemed were those firstfruits.

Scripture is not totally void of a resurrection at the Cross, it is just not that explicit nor spelled out. So many still see souls as being in a state of death, even though Jesus taught otherwise. Those in Paradise have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple since the first century. That is a physical attribute, not symbolic of naked souls walking around without a physical body. The tree of life is physical not symbolic. They would have physical bodies just as much as the tree of life is physical. The Cross did make the physical resurrection available. Not that souls had to keep waiting for 3,000 years to receive a physical body.

Many had already been waiting in Abraham's bosom for over 3,000 years, for the Cross to receive a physical resurrection. That was not extended for another 3,000 years.
Jesus does not bring dead bodies with Him, but living bodies.
You are 100% CORRECT

They are all alive because they never tasted death like those in the OT. Do you think the NT Covenant makes one dead, or one alive?
1 Thess 4:13-18 = Those whom CHRIST brings are the spirits/souls of the Saints who physically died.

Explain why there cannot be physical bodies in heaven one minute, and then a second later they are allowed? That makes no sense.
No physical bodies are allowed in Heaven until the Resurrection of the Just = 1 Thess 4:13-18

At His Second Coming is when all the Saints receive their Glorified Immortal Bodies = Matthew 22:29-31

SHALOM
 

David in NJ

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Unlike an Israeli who is governed by the beast,I don't have much to overcome.Im not going to be put in prison and killed for testifying of Jesus in the beasts kingdom because I don't live in the beasts kingdom.

I'm not going to be persecuted throughout all the cities of Israel before Christ comes.


Mathew 10
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.



Most of what Jesus tells his disciples in Israel does not concern me.My family is not going to betray me to death as the followers of Christ in the land of Israel .
A.) Why are christians persecuted throughout the world?

B.) Why do you believe you are exempt from persecution?

C.) Why do believe that you are not to overcome?
 

tailgator

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A.) Why are christians persecuted throughout the world?

B.) Why do you believe you are exempt from persecution?

C.) Why do believe that you are not to overcome?
Why should I claim to be persecuted when I'm.not?

What is it that I am supposed to overcome?
I don't live in the beasts kingdom.

Revelation 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This isn't about me.
 

David in NJ

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Why should I claim to be persecuted when I'm.not?

What is it that I am supposed to overcome?
I don't live in the beasts kingdom.

Revelation 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This isn't about me.
Who did JESUS exhort to overcome?
 

David in NJ

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Who was Jesus sent to?
The people listed by God here = John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

and here = John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

and here = Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
 

tailgator

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The people listed by God here = John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

and here = John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

and here = Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Jesus said he is only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But you believe since Mathew made a disciple of me that I'm supposed to overcome something?

The coming years when the christians in Israel are being placed in prison and killed for their testimony Will you still be telling me I'm supposed to overcome something?What ?

What on earth do I need to overcome while they are being killed?

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come

Revelation ,13
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.




So while Israel is being imprisoned and killed by the beast, I'll be living the same life I've been living.
 

David in NJ

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Jesus said he is only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But you believe since Mathew made a disciple of me that I'm supposed to overcome something?

The coming years when the christians in Israel are being placed in prison and killed for their testimony Will you still be telling me I'm supposed to overcome something?What ?

What on earth do I need to overcome while they are being killed?

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come

Revelation ,13
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.




So while Israel is being imprisoned and killed by the beast, I'll be living the same life I've been living.
When christians focus on a single verse and ignore the overwhelming evidence of the Gospel to all nations they fall into error.

You have yet to discover all that JESUS accomplished and for whom.

Begin with Genesis and then move on to Daniel then the Gospel of John, Acts and the Apostles letters.
 

tailgator

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When christians focus on a single verse and ignore the overwhelming evidence of the Gospel to all nations they fall into error.

You have yet to discover all that JESUS accomplished and for whom.

Begin with Genesis and then move on to Daniel then the Gospel of John, Acts and the Apostles letters.
Read them.
I received the holy Ghost Aug 31:1998

I know what Jesus has done .But it's not me ruling over the nations in the Lords land after the king of Babylon(the beast) is destroyed.


Isaiah 14
14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.


"Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids"



I may go there,but I won't be reigning over the nations in Jesus land.I will be one of the nations in the kingdom of Israel.
 

amigo de christo

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Which Israel?
For not all who are of israel are of ISRAEL . so the answer to your question
ITS THE ISRAEL OF GOD who BELIEVED JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
Many of israel and many gentiles will wail on the day of the LORD . But unto he or she who is OF THE ISRAEL OF GOD
WHEREIN the JERUSALEM is above wherein the temple IS GOD AND THE LAMB , THEY GONNA BE SINGING TO THE KING who saved them .