The third way (Arminianism v Calvinism)

[Ritajanice]

Could you please explain that to us here in a way that makes sense since God is a being that created sense?

Sis, there are a lot of posts that don’t make sense to me.

Like you are doing, I too like to question, so that what they says makes sense to us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sis, there are a lot of posts that don’t make sense to me.

Like you are doing, I too like to question, so that what they says makes sense to us.

Ritajanice...I love you as a sister in Christ.
What I'd like you to know is that God is a God that invites everyone to salvation...
He invites...
Then we accept His invitation,
Then He changes our heart from the inside and we become tranforned into more God-like creatures.

I see you posting some ideology that is agreeing with what I just stated above...
but then I see you posting some ideology that is more in line with calvinist teachings.

So, this confuses me a little.
But, in your case I don't mind because MAYBE (not sure) you haven't studied Calvinism enough to know what it really teaches and are going by what is posted on these threads. I apologize if I'm mistaken.

But those here that claim to be Calvinist...and then change it and twist it to make it sound nice....
are not being intellectually honest and with this I have a big problem.
What they are posting makes NO SENSE at all and I doubt God wants us to have doubts as to His very character.

If a person wants to be reformed (calvinist) in theology,,,,fine...
but let them at least post what calvinism actually teaches.

IF what John Calvin and others taught is CHANGED....then they bring confusion to the table and Calvinism ceases to make sense.

There are Calvinists that believe, actually believe, that God PREDESTINAGED EVERYTHING...
one would be John Piper. At least he admits that God created everything.....even sin and even men sinning -

AND,,,,they have to stop saying that MAN HAS NO FREE WILL,,,,
EXCEPT
when it comes to sinning...then, all of a sudden, man has free will. (to sin because they don't want to admit that God created sin -which, of course, He didn't)
They should make up their mind.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is what I'm saying. God says, Come to Me and be saved. But this doctrine says, "but you can't so the invitation is meaningless, just, if He chooses you, you will come to Him."

Jesus said, "Come to me, ALL you . . . "

I believe this was a real invitation to all mankind.

Much love!

Surely this is not a problem with election by grace and mercy of God
Christ is issuing a general outward reaching call to believe; He told that to all.

Christ though acknowledges He gets His believers from the Father alone, according to God's will.

You can have both the outward and the personal inward call and that most closely agrees scripturally.
You cannot ignore either one of these in understanding scripture.
One side ignores the inward call of God's choosing, while the other may completely ignore the outward call to repent and believe spoken to all mankind and man's receiving of Christ.

God calls, no one responds unless God opens their heart to heed the things of God. To me that means they are become spiritually minded, and God does that by making a person born of God. Then they are of God and not of the world, of Satan.

Christ rejectors don't hear even though Christ spoke a lot to them. They don't hear because of the enmity within them against Christ and the Father. And their minds are blinded to the light of the gospel by the god of the world, the devil.

John 8 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[Scott Downey]

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ritajanice]

@GodsGrace Dear Sis, I’m not going there with you.

I don’t and won’t involve myself in arguing over scripture, I post what I believe..there is no point arguing over and over..we both believe differently on how we became Born Again..no problem...I will not argue with you over it..I wish you well, good day and God Bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace Dear Sis, I’m not going there with you.

I don’t and won’t involve myself in arguing over scripture, I post what I believe..there is no point arguing over and over..we both believe differently on how we became Born Again..no problem...I will not argue with you over it..I wish you well, good day and God Bless.

I appreciate this.
But I'm not so sure we disagree.
God came to you....
Did you accept Him?

 

[Ritajanice]

I appreciate this.
But I'm not so sure we disagree.
God came to you....
Did you accept Him?

Sis, I have already explained many, many times, how I became Born Again..on this forum.

Sorry, I am not being drawn into any of this , on how you or I believe we were Born Again...we differ in our belief..as we differ in our understanding of how God makes our spirit Born Again...

I post what I believe the Spirit places on my heart, that’s it.. no way does he want me arguing over my salvation or anyone else’s. I believe I am being obedient to his leading.which I can only do in the strength of his Spirit..

You can’t force anyone to believe as you believe, or I believe, it’s not Of God.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Enlightenment in that verse does not mean salvation in all of those people's lives, as the context shows. In verses 16-18, the passage says that people who reject Jesus are going to "perish," a way of saying that they will, sadly, be separated from God forever. Thus, Calvinism is biblical, since it takes into consideration the contexts of passages the best I've seen. God has his plans for the human race but isn't responsible for their sinful self-centered rejection of the Light of the world, while everyone is fully responsible for our whole lives, a biblical mystery that is embraced by Calvinists like me.

I think you hit the nail on the head with "a biblical mystery". I have never heard anyone from the "free choice" movement embrace the doctrine of God's mystery.

The vast majority of professing Christians reject the fact that God has not revealed a great deal about Himself, so His ways are still mostly mysterious to us. Most professing Christians put God on trial, and many of His ways don't pass muster and are rejected as being misinterpreted, because they just can't accept a God who doesn't do things their way.

A Roman Catholic neighbor of mine, recently told me that he no longer believes in God. His reasoning was that, God either doesn't exist or He' not a good God, l because He allowed his 5 year old niece to die of cancer. He said, we all prayed for months but God didn't answer us. He said why would God take a 5 year old child if He is as good as you say He is. I told him, I don't know why God took her but He never does anything without a good reason.

He then asked what possible good reason could there be for cutting a young life short like that. I said there could be many reasons, and I didn't want to guess, but he pressed me to name one possible reason and I said "it could be because of idolatry". I said, God sometimes takes our idols away from us to humble us and cause us to turn to Him. Anyway, he didn't see the sense in doing something like that and I told Him God is a mystery, we will never know everythi9ng about Him but we can be sure that everything He odes is perfectly good and right.

My neighbor is now a heavy drinker and he always looks depressed, I pray that God would reveal the truth to him because he just can't accept it at the moment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Surely this is not a problem with election by grace and mercy of God
Christ is issuing a general outward reaching call to believe; He told that to all.

Christ though acknowledges He gets His believers from the Father alone, according to God's will.

You can have both the outward and the personal inward call and that most closely agrees scripturally.
You cannot ignore either one of these in understanding scripture.
One side ignores the inward call of God's choosing, while the other may completely ignore the outward call to repent and believe spoken to all mankind and man's receiving of Christ.

God calls, no one responds unless God opens their heart to heed the things of God. To me that means they are become spiritually minded, and God does that by making a person born of God. Then they are of God and not of the world, of Satan.

Christ rejectors don't hear even though Christ spoke a lot to them. They don't hear because of the enmity within them against Christ and the Father. And their minds are blinded to the light of the gospel by the god of the world, the devil.

John 8 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Please post some scripture about the outward and inward call.

And yes, God opens the heart.
Problem is: God opens the heart of EVERY man and gives to every man the possibility to be saved.
Once the heart is opened it's up to THE PERSON to accept God's grace or deny God'r grace.
God forces no one to believe....
BUT
saves those that DO believe.

Read John 3:16 carefully
WHOSOEVER believes will be saved....
WHOSOEVER
BELIEVES

I don't see any words there that state that God will force us to believe...
I see no verse that states that God's grace is irresistable....

I do see that God's grace IS resistable...

Jesus cried over Jerusalem because THEY WOULD NOT COME TO HIM.

That sounds like free will to me to either COME TO JESUS OR NOT COME TO JESUS.
That is a CHOICE...a choice denotes free will
Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Please explain where in Matthew 23:37 it states that God MADE Jerusalem NOT go to Jesus....
Thanks.

 

[Scott Downey]

Please post some scripture about the outward and inward call.

And yes, God opens the heart.
Problem is: God opens the heart of EVERY man and gives to every man the possibility to be saved.
Once the heart is opened it's up to THE PERSON to accept God's grace or deny God'r grace.
God forces no one to believe....
BUT
saves those that DO believe.

Read John 3:16 carefully
WHOSOEVER believes will be saved....
WHOSOEVER
BELIEVES

I don't see any words there that state that God will force us to believe...
I see no verse that states that God's grace is irresistable....

I do see that God's grace IS resistable...

Jesus cried over Jerusalem because THEY WOULD NOT COME TO HIM.

That sounds like free will to me to either COME TO JESUS OR NOT COME TO JESUS.
That is a CHOICE...a choice denotes free will
Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Please explain where in Matthew 23:37 it states that God MADE Jerusalem NOT go to Jesus....
Thanks.

No God does not open the heart of every man.
2 Cor 4 clearly states that.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[Scott Downey]

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Ritajanice]

I too would like to see scripture regarding this, please Brother. @Scott Downey

Please post some scripture about the outward and inward call.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Acts we see the inward work of God on a person, this inward call, results in salvation.
She God has changed, touched her, in fact her spirit God touched as God is spirit, it is the spirit that is saved.

13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

If God opens the heart and does an inward personal call to all, then all would believe in Christ.
And why write this way if God does this for all people?

 

[Ritajanice]

If one has been chosen and predestined to become Born Again, it happens very naturally, just as God planned it, before the foundation of the world.

Same as Jesus was predestined to become the messiah, he had no choice, God knew that Jesus would be 100% inline with his will. also obedience.

Just as his Born Again children will be, only we are taught by the Spirit, to become obedient to God..plus he works in our heart, conforming us into Jesus image...our heart is in Christ, it’s inevitable that we bear his fruit and develop his beautiful character.

 

[Ritajanice]

In Acts we see the inward work of God on a person, this inward call, results in salvation.
She God has changed, touched her, in fact her spirit God touched as God is spirit, it is the spirit that is saved.

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts, Pauls' own conversion shows the inward call. Of course, quite dramatically irresistible this was.

Only Paul heard the words of the Lord Jesus speaking to Him personally.

Then he said: 3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, 5 as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light [a]and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul even uses His own conversion experience to teach that this is as a pattern for those who will believe on Christ for eternal life.
That God's will cannot be resisted when He chooses to save someone.
And that should be of great comfort to those who believe.

1 Tim 1
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to [a]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Harvest 1874]

For those having ears to hear, and who are desirous of comprehending the gospel as it is espoused by the professing church, viz., the Roman Catholic gospel, the Calvinistic gospel, and the Armenian gospel we believe a look at a blog post found on this forum entitled, "Which is the True Gospel?" might prove of some value.

 

[marks]

Christ though acknowledges He gets His believers from the Father alone, according to God's will.

John 6:44? What about John 12:32?

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Tim 1
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to [a]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

This is saying that God can save the worst of sinners. Not that everyone will get knocked to the ground by a blinding light to be blind for 3 days.

Much love!