The third way (Arminianism v Calvinism)

[Scott Downey]

John 6:44? What about John 12:32?

Much love!

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am [e]lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

NKJV uses peoples.

Drawing in every sense has to do with collecting and sorting out the things drawn.
Some for noble, some for ignoble purposes of God.

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,

48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”

They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ was lifted up, and later ascended to the Father He was given all authority in heaven and on earth

John 17
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Only those given to Christ by the Father may know the only True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.
And only them, no one else.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is saying that God can save the worst of sinners. Not that everyone will get knocked to the ground by a blinding light to be blind for 3 days.

Much love!

Yeah, God can save the worst sinner. But he will not change the counsel of His own will.
All God's works were finished in 7 days, and He rested from all His works.
Meaning God at the beginning of all things determined all the works He would do.

Jesus tells us the work of God is that you believe in whom He has sent.

Hebrews 4, and of course the apostles had to speak to the people without being God themselves who knows all things and has rested in Himself from all His works. So they issued a warning.

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if [b]Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Not everyone going to church is a believer.

 

[marks]

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am [e]lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Try it this way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, God can save the worst sinner. But he will not change the counsel of His own will.
All God's works were finished in 7 days, and He rested from all His works.
Meaning God at the beginning of all things determined all the works He would do.

What I'm saying is, that passage does not support Calvinistic predestination. Do you agree or disagree?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 4, and of course the apostles had to speak to the people without being God themselves who knows all things and has rested in Himself from all His works. So they issued a warning.

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if [b]Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Not everyone going to church is a believer.

Neither does this passage teach Calvinistic predestination.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Drawing in every sense has to do with collecting and sorting out the things drawn.

You are saying that after Jesus is crucified, He will draw some to Himself to be condemned? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

For those having ears to hear, and who are desirous of comprehending the gospel as it is espoused by the professing church, viz., the Roman Catholic gospel, the Calvinistic gospel, and the Armenian gospel we believe a look at a blog post found on this forum entitled, "Which is the True Gospel?" might prove of some value.

Forget about Rome, and Calvin, and Arminius. The Bible, that's what we want.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This is process, not criteria.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Is this Truth? I say, resoundingly YES!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 3:16-18 KJV
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Truth? Again, Absolutely YES!!



The one believing . . . "active voice verb", meaning, the person is the one doing the believing. If the believing was done to them, it would have to be a passive voice verb to be accurate.

So as it is, if you say the person doesn't of themself believe, then you are de facto declaring this Scripture false.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

No God does not open the heart of every man.
2 Cor 4 clearly states that.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

I asked for verses that show an outward call and an inward call....
That would be appreciated.

Let's go to the verse you posted:
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.
6For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Paul is stating that he is not preaching himself but Christ Jesus who is Lord.
He is a bond servant for Jesus' sake.
It is God that shines His light in the hearts of the men who will reply to His call.....His grace.....
for ALL MEN....which is sufficient to save.

Please notice that verse 4 states WHY the gospel is veiled for some persons:
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel

The god of THIS WORLD has blinded the minds of the unbelieving....
The god of THIS WORLD is satan ....NOT GOD.

Satan blinds the eyes of those who will not accept God.

GOD does not blind the eyes of anyone since it is HE that desires all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

GOD does NOT hide the truth from anyone.

Jesus died to attract everyone to Himself.
EVERYONE.
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”


We can know that God draws all men to Himself because God loves His creation .....us and wishes each and every one of us to be saved.
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”


Verse 18 states that a man will be lost because he does not believe...
It does NOT say that it's because God did not choose him to be saved.

Verse 19 states that men committed evil deeds because they loved the darkness,
It does NOT say because God predestinated them as such....as John Piper states.

Verse 20 states that everyone who who does evil hates the light and DOES NOT COME TO THE LIGHT for fear that HIS DEEDS WILL BE EXPOSED.
It does NOT say that it's because God did not choose these persons.

Verse 20 states WHO COMES TO THE LIGHT: THOSE THAT PRACTICE THE TRUTH so that it can be seen that their good deeds are done in Christ.

Could you go through the verses at hand and explain why you don't agree with my understanding of them?
OR
Could you give your version of the meaning of these verses?

 

[marks]

1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

GOD does NOT hide the truth from anyone.

Another great passage of which I ask, Is it true? And I answer, yes it is!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Forget about Rome, and Calvin, and Arminius. The Bible, that's what we want.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

For those having ears to hear, and who are desirous of comprehending the gospel as it is espoused by the professing church, viz., the Roman Catholic gospel, the Calvinistic gospel, and the Armenian gospel we believe a look at a blog post found on this forum entitled, "Which is the True Gospel?" might prove of some value.

This is also for @marks

Just want to say this:
The CC preaches the gospel.
We may not like all their doctrine...but they DO preach the gospel.

Don't know enough about Armenianism, I know he used to be Calvinist.

BUT

Calvinism does NOT preach the gospel.
The gospel means good news.

There is NO GOOD NEWS in Calvinism....

I would request anyone on this thread to explain to us
WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS in Calvinist theology.

 

[Behold]

I would be interested to hear about a third option

Paul the Apostle wrote all the Church Doctrine, in His 13 NT Epistles.

This is not a "3rd option".......its the only option that is completely TRUE.

Disregard anything else, as its just a "rabbit hole" and you'll get deceived down in there, Reader.

Stay out.(for life).

 

[Hepzibah]

Paul the Apostle wrote all the Church Doctrine, in His 13 NT Epistles.

This is not a "3rd option".......its the only option that is completely TRUE.

Disregard anything else, as its just a "rabbit hole" and you'll get deceived down in there, Reader.

Stay out.(for life).

Calvinism/Arminianism are both imbalanced, whereas the truth is somewhat in the middle, as is usual. Man has free will, and God chooses, when every man that comes into the world, is presented with the light of the gospel, when God decides to draw Him to Himself.

That man can open up his heart or close it. We are made in the image of God that is, as free moral agents. God did not create puppets.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinism/Arminianism are both imbalanced, whereas the truth is somewhat in the middle, as is usual. Man has free will, and God chooses, when every man that comes into the world, is presented with the light of the gospel, when God decides to draw Him to Himself.

That man can open up his heart or close it. We are made in the image of God that is, as free moral agents. God did not create puppets.

Agreed on everything.
Except that God draws all men to Himself....
If we take Romans 1:19-20 we see that man will be without excuse at death because, from the beginning, God has made Himself knowable to man by the creation.

I would also point to John 3:16 and every verse that states that it rains on the good and the evil...
and every verse that states that God is not a respecter of persons but is available to all - as is His wish.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”


@Scott Downey still waiting for a reply from you
@FaithWillDo what do you do with the above verses??

 

[Behold]

Calvinism/Arminianism are both imbalanced,

Joseph and John.....how did these 2 ever become so important to "christians"..

THat's the mystery, as they are just men......... yet, their theologies, control a lot of so called "christian scholarship" and a lot of minds of people who actually care about what they wrote.

Just get away from this JUNK, reader.

Get your bible...... Study Paul's Epistles, reader.

Start with Romans 3:21-28.

Then read 2 Corinthians 5:19, and find out WHY that verse is true.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Forget about Rome, and Calvin, and Arminius. The Bible, that's what we want.

Much love!

If you truly believe this then you would have actually read the blog post, the whole post. It was not espousing the so-called gospels as put forth by Romanist, Calvinist or Arminianism, but rather was contrasting these with the one true gospel, the gospel as preached by or Lord and his apostles. The first part of the post was simply a brief look at the gospel as it is espoused by each of these groups comparing them to each other followed with what we believe to be the true gospel at its end.

Please go back and read it again, this time thoroughly, this applies likewise to GodsGrace as well, as there seems to be some confusion here, which I should have made more clear in my original post.