The curious case of John 5:4

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My experience (note the irony) is that Utley is correct on this one. God doesn't always hand out those mountain-top experiences, and I have known Christians who have lived long fruitful lives without one, just trusting God. Needing those experiences is and not receiving them can be as devasting as, well, realizing that the Bible isn't perfect.
I was getting an internal prompt to respond to this post. I needed to go find it again. - LOL
Mostly because I was left with a nagging thought that I needed to respond in some way.

I agree with what you are saying. Some may never have a "mountain-top experience" and perhaps
feel shorted in some way when they hear others testify to such. And there is danger, I would say, in seeking
such things with such fervor that a person is driven to create something in their own mind.

There also seems to be a range of attitude toward these things. Some are very open to them and some are very closed.
A person could literally walk right past a potential mountain-top experience and head down a path to the valley below.

If a person cloisters themselves with individuals who haven't had a mountain-top experience, they will likely
not find one themselves. Not to say that a mountain-top experience cannot come and find you, they can.

Most importantly, these mountain-top experiences are not a basis for a living faith, they should be viewed
as a personal affirmation, and when shared with others, as an encouragement to them.

From my perspective, everyone finds God in their own way, and God tends to
meet us in the middle when we are ready, if not sooner.

At one point I wrote down some of my experiences, because I was forgetting about them as I
moved forward in my faith. Documenting these things, and writing in general is good.

[
 
Last edited:

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was getting an internal prompt to respond to this post. I needed to go find it again. - LOL
Mostly because I was left with a nagging thought that I needed to respond in some way.

I agree with what you are saying. Some may never have a "mountain-top experience" and perhaps
feel shorted in some way when they hear others testify to such. And there is danger, I would say, in seeking
such things with such fervor that a person is driven to create something in their own mind.

There also seems to be a range of attitude toward these things. Some are very open to them and some are very closed.
A person could literally walk right past a potential mountain-top experience and head down a path to the valley below.

If a person cloisters themselves with individuals who haven't had a mountain-top experience, they will likely
not find one themselves. Not to say that a mountain-top experience cannot come and find you, they can.

Most importantly, these mountain-top experiences are not a basis for a living faith, they should be viewed
as a personal affirmation, and when shared with others, as an encouragement to them.

From my perspective, everyone finds God in their own way, and God tends to
meet us in the middle when we are ready, if not sooner.

At one point I wrote down some of my experiences, because I was forgetting about them as I
moved forward in my faith. Documenting these things, and writing in general is good.

[
I'm having a rock bottom experience. Things have not gone well. I'm praying that they turn around soon
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm having a rock bottom experience. Things have not gone well. I'm praying that they turn around soon
We have a line in one of our worship songs at church that reads:

I don't know what you're doing
But I know what you've done


My prayer for you is that Father God will lift you up today.
Put a smile on your face and a bounce in your step. AMEN


[
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Done with the right attitude, telling the student to depend on God is a way to help him. I don’t think it should be thought of as an “instead of” alternative to restoring his confidence in the reliability of the Bible.
I was thinking of this over the weekend, One thing that came to mind is in the past when I see someone shaken so quickly by something that seems insignificant is they already had questions or doubts to begin with. And the solution is get to the root cause of the doubts. more than just trying to explain this issue..
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who woulda thunk it?
Sorry Matthias....I just didn't know.

Here's my point:
It was possible to know God before any bible existed.
Not everyone in the world has access to a bible.
Romans 1 and 2 addresses this.
Paul states that it has always been possible to know that God exists through His creation so that man is without excuse.
In Romans 2 he states that those that have no law are a law unto themselves...their conscience bearing witness.


:contemplate:

I did notice it and fixed it.
Computers have a mind of their own!
I agree,

Anyone can come to christ without reading the bible.

But I would say no one can come to truly know christ without it..
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm having a rock bottom experience. Things have not gone well. I'm praying that they turn around soon
I was talking to someone at church yesterday about the horrible experience my family went through the last time we moved our home.
But I had to conclude that the bad thing that sent us packing put us where we are today. I won't tell you the story now.
I just want you to know that when things look very dark, God is about to break through with an incredible blessing.

I also want to thank you for providing the link below quite some time ago. I learned a lot from studying it.
You are real asset to this forum. I appreciate you so much.


[
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
This is determined geologically.
This has nothing to do with God as far as I'm concerned.
I believe the science used to determine this is flawed. And I belie3ve christian sciences have proven this to be in error.
History requires eye witnesses.
What eyewitness do we have for the OT?
I think Genesis is a great eyewitness. We not only have the record of Christian in the first three chapters. we have the record of the great cataclysmic flood. which I believe answers the geologic question.
What we have is God's INSPIRED word....
He inspired men to write about the beginning...
about how HE created everything.
HOW doesn't seem important to me.
Agree, this is not a salvic issue..
It sure sounds like it...although this could be debated.
I think we just don't know.
What we DO know is that God created everything....(through Jesus).
yes Amen, to me, we just do not know, and will not until we ask God himself.
I tend to agree except for:
UNLESS IT SAYS TO DO OTHERWISE.
Well I think we have much scripture where we are told. when God said something, he explains the symbology.

so unless it says to do otherwise. i think we should never just spiritualise or make a symbol of scrip[ture trying to teach us a spiritual point.

Granted, I know in Daniels prophecies. Paul used symbols. but they represented literal things. They did not represent spiritual truths.

Yet many say we should nto take it literally.. Even though much history proves many of the events literally took place.
Where would you think the bible would tell you NOT to take it literally?
Spiritually.. And jesus did it all the time when he gave parables.. he told us the interpretation.
When men wrote what they wrote....they believed it to be literal.
I agree.. we should take it as they took it..
 
J

Johann

Guest
I'm having a rock bottom experience. Things have not gone well. I'm praying that they turn around soon
Do you have a community or church around you, @RLT63, that not only preaches but also actively reaches out to people in serious need?

J.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: GodsGrace

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you have a community or church around you, @RLT63, that not only preaches but also actively reaches out to people in serious need?
What is stopping you from reaching out and being an encouragement? You must have something. (maybe not?)

We are the church. All the believers that gather here on this forum. (excluding me, I suppose)

[
 
Last edited:

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always maintained that verse 4 should absolutely be included in the passage despite what the "scholars " say. Verse 7 makes no sense without verse 4.
Depends,

If it was not from God. but one of those things people believed it, It would make perfect sense
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Unchecked Copy Box
Jhn 5:7 - The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled,to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Who troubled the water? Why did he want to get into the water when it was troubled?
Without verse 4 we have no idea what the impotent man is talking about.
Could be a demon,

Could be anything, we should not assume anything

actually it makes no sense whatsoever that God would do this.. If God wanted to heal. would he just not heal anyone.. It is odd God would put people through what God put this man through..
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Actually only the originals were inspired and all we have are copies. There is some disagreement about which copies are the best. Modern versions favor the Alexandrian texts because they are older, but is older better?
They often leave out things that are in the Majority (Byzantine) texts.
So were these things added later or are there mistakes in the Alexandrian texts?
Modern scholars say they were added later, King James advocates say the Alexandrian texts are corrupted but none of this brings into question the inspiration of the originals
I would tend to lean on the older.

the new text being newer. would have many more copies available. so in this case. i would not go with the majority rules process.

In fact, I think we have a history which shows the majority is usually wrong,
 
J

Johann

Guest
What is stopping you from reaching out and being an encouragement? You must have something. (maybe not?)

[
I’m flat broke, but I come from a place where they take care of people in every way, really living out Matthew 25.


Jas 1:22 ¶ But be doers of the message and not hearers only, [Some manuscripts have “not only hearers”] deceiving yourselves,
Jas 1:23 because if anyone is a hearer of the message and not a doer, this one is like someone [Literally “a man,” but clearly in a generic sense here meaning “someone, a person”] staring at his own face [Literally “the face of his existence”] in a mirror,
Jas 1:24 for he looks at himself and goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he was.
Jas 1:25 But the one who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues to do it , not being a forgetful hearer but a doer who acts, this one will be blessed in what he does [Literally “in his doing”].

Jas 1:26 ¶ If anyone thinks he is religious, although he [*Here “although ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“bridle”) which is understood as concessive] does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.
Jas 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our [*Literally “the”; the Greek article is used here as a possessive pronoun] God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.


Jas 2:1 Partiality Forbidden
¶ My brothers, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with partiality.
Jas 2:2 For if someone [Literally “a man,” but clearly in a generic sense here meaning “someone, a person”] enters into your assembly [Literally “synagogue,” but here probably referring to a Christian assembly] in fine clothing with a gold ring on his finger, and a poor person in filthy clothing also enters,
Jas 2:3 and you look favorably on the one wearing the fine clothing and you say, “Be seated here in a good place,” and to the poor person you say, “You stand or be seated there [Some manuscripts have “you stand there or be seated”] by my footstool,”
Jas 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers! Did not God choose the poor of the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?
Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor! Are not the rich exploiting you and they themselves dragging you into the courts?
Jas 2:7 Do they themselves not blaspheme the good name of the one to whom you belong [Literally “that was called over you”]?


Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 Faith and Works
¶ What is the benefit, my brothers, if someone says that he has faith but does not have works? That faith is not able to save him, is it ? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here]
Jas 2:15 If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day,
Jas 2:16 and one of you should say to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well [Literally, “be satisfied”],” but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what is the benefit?
Jas 2:17 Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself.

Hence my question to our brother-maybe he can find assistance, practical assistance from his community or church.

J.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was talking to someone at church yesterday about the horrible experience my family went through the last time we moved our home.
But I had to conclude that the bad thing that sent us packing put us where we are today. I won't tell you the story now.
I just want you to know that when things look very dark, God is about to break through with an incredible blessing.

I also want to thank you for providing the link below quite some time ago. I learned a lot from studying it.
You are real asset to this forum. I appreciate you so much.


[
Thank you
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Apparently, it was written under divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he spoke through them, therefore written by man...who are fallible .

What does show ourselves approved mean?

I’ve never understood that scripture?
I think it is answered in the text

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Amen! We listen from within our heart to the Spirit ,witnessing Gods truth to our heart, it still has to be checked out with scripture does it not ?
..
Not everything needs to be checked with scripture though.

For instance, I often feel prompted to good deeds for my neighbours...things like ,shopping, gardening, spending time with the lonely...I often speak about my faith to non Christians...showing the kindness of God..being kind in words..showing dignity, respect for others.the list is endless.
This is dangerous.

we should test everything with scripture. even Satan comes as an angel of light..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,084
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Yes, they've been praying and sending me cards
Are you waiting for an operation?
my friend is in agony, waiting for a knee replacement, she has months to wait for operation.
money talks...£16;000 up front, she could have it done next week.

Sorry, to hear of your plight, praying for you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen