The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

I think they go hand in hand do they not?

I think they do too.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did you ever read Romans 1 and 2?
I posted verses from there just above.....

What do you think it means?

Yes they know god thus have no excuse.

 

[Matthias]

Wow. Now that is sad. Makes ya wonder his background

It’s been a long time now since the incident happened. In my mind, I recall that he was Baptist, a fundamentalist.

[I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was raised KJVO. The Baptist church I attended (in the 60’s and 70’s) wouldn’t have condoned the use of the NIV. In fact, my pastor would have pitched a fit over it. He remained KJVO until his death a few years ago. The student didn’t attend the same Baptist church that I attended in my youth.]

I wondered at the time of the incident (and again over the past few days) why he was even using the NIV. One of our professors used the NIV in his teaching and preaching, so maybe that’s why he was. Maybe the Baptist church he attended wasn’t KJVO.

I don’t know that it will add anything to the discussion but the student was a teenager, probably 18 years old. I was an adult in my late 40’s.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My Baptist church was KJVO also. I had to get rid of a bunch of biases when I left

The NIV is not a word for word like the king jimmy the NASB and other like them. That will cause a difference also

 

[St. SteVen]

If I haven't made it clear in my posts on this topic...

I think the problem with the topic question is that we are searching for ways
to continue the falsehoods we were taught about the Bible. Rather than dealing with
the inflated claims the church makes about the Bible.

Essentially our student was knocked out of his saddle.
Should our solution be to get him back in the saddle and keep him there?

Which is more pure? - The Bible, or Ivory Soap?

Which is more pure? The Bible, or Ivory Soap? (99.44% pure) And does it float? [

www.christianityboard.com

[ cc: @Lambano @Wick Stick @RedFan

 

[GodsGrace]

If I haven't made it clear in my posts on this topic...

I think the problem with the topic question is that we are searching for ways
to continue the falsehoods we were taught about the Bible. Rather than dealing with
the inflated claims the church makes about the Bible.

Essentially our student was knocked out of his saddle.
Should our solution be to get him back in the saddle and keep him there?

Which is more pure? - The Bible, or Ivory Soap?

Which is more pure? The Bible, or Ivory Soap? (99.44% pure) And does it float? [

www.christianityboard.com

[ cc: @Lambano @Wick Stick @RedFan

Thanks.
Someone here understands what I'm stating....
IOW,,,,the problem of the student SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST!

@Matthias just wants to get the student back in the saddle...
instead of telling him to depend on God....

The bible was written by MEN under the INSPIRATION of God...
It was not written by God....

Men make mistakes.

This does not mean that we're to "ditch" the bible...
it helps us to know God....

But IF we're married, we know our spouse through experience...
not by reading a book about them.

 

[Ritajanice]

If I haven't made it clear in my posts on this topic...

I think the problem with the topic question is that we are searching for ways
to continue the falsehoods we were taught about the Bible. Rather than dealing with
the inflated claims the church makes about the Bible.

Essentially our student was knocked out of his saddle.
Should our solution be to get him back in the saddle and keep him there?

Which is more pure? - The Bible, or Ivory Soap?

Which is more pure? The Bible, or Ivory Soap? (99.44% pure) And does it float? [

www.christianityboard.com

[ cc: @Lambano @Wick Stick @RedFan

Only God can keep him in the saddle...by the power of His Living Spirit.

The Bible can’t do that I’m afraid, imo..he needs a Living relationship with God..only the Spirit can gift him that ,by becoming Born Of God’s Living seed..imo.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only God can keep him in the saddle...by the power of His Living Spirit.

The Bible can’t do that I’m afraid, imo..he needs a Living relationship with God..only the Spirit can gift him that ,by becoming Born Of God’s Living seed..imo.

See my post 325....
We wrote at practically the same moment...

 

[Ritajanice]

This does not mean that we're to "ditch" the bible...
it helps us to know God...

Amen..it also helps us to grow and mature, to be like Christ,imo.

Oh,...to be as gracious as our Lord Jesus!

2 Peter 3:18- But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 1 Timothy 4:15 - Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress.

 

[St. SteVen]

Only God can keep him in the saddle...by the power of His Living Spirit.

The Bible can’t do that I’m afraid, imo..he needs a Living relationship with God..only the Spirit can gift him that ,by becoming Born Of God’s Living seed..imo.

Hopefully that was already the case with our "student".
Seems to me the problem isn't that the student was not in a relationship with God.
The problem was that the student was in a relationship with a fundamentalist church.
A church that lied to him about the veracity of the Bible. Inflated and unrealistic claims.

[

 

[Lambano]

I don’t know that it will add anything to the discussion but the student was a teenager, probably 18 years old. I was an adult in my late 40’s.

I think that's significant because that's the time of life when kids realize that the adults they trusted are flawed.

Who can you trust?

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias just wants to get the student back in the saddle...
instead of telling him to depend on God....

Done with the right attitude, telling the student to depend on God is a way to help him. I don’t think it should be thought of as an “instead of” alternative to restoring his confidence in the reliability of the Bible.

 

[Matthias]

I think that's significant because that's the age when kids realize that the adults they trusted are flawed.

I was a student too - the oldest student - at the time of the incident. I’ve wondered (since the incident happened, not at the time that it happened) why he came to me for help. (We weren’t particularly close. I was married, he was single. I was working as a civil engineer, 40-50 hours per week, traveling a lot for my job and taking five classes per semester.) Maybe it was the three decade difference in our ages, combined with me being a fellow student rather than an authority figure (a professor or a pastor, for example.) Perhaps he sought help from others too, but if he did he never mentioned it to me.

Would ways to help someone who has lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible be different depending on the age of the person? What if, for example, the person wasn’t a teenager but someone in his or her sixties?

 

[Lambano]

How many people would believe in God and in the Messiah if there was no Bible?

The student I spoke about in the OP was on the cusp of throwing the Bible in a garbage can.

The Bible is (when you drill down into it) directly or indirectly our witness to what Jesus did and said. You can't can it. Sine qua non, "Without this, there is nothing". That's why I find the Fundamentalist all-or-nothing principle to be harmful. I suppose it's the forensic principle, "if you impeach the witness at one point in his testimony, you call the whole testimony into question". But life isn't a lawcourt. You have to trust somebody.

And now I can hear the objection, "But Lambano, you can't just pick and choose which verses of the Bible you believe!"

And for the second time in this thread, I would say, "Oh, can't I? Here, hold my beer and watch this!" We all do it. Even St. Paul did it.

 

[Lambano]

I was a student too - the oldest student - at the time of the incident. I’ve wondered (since the incident happened, not at the time that it happened) why he came to me for help. (We weren’t particularly close. I was married, he was single. I was working as a civil engineer, 40-50 hours per week, traveling a lot for my job and taking five classes per semester.) Maybe it was the three decade difference in our ages, combined with me being a fellow student rather than an authority figure (a professor or a pastor, for example.) Perhaps he sought help from others too, but if he did he never mentioned it to me.

Would ways to help someone who has lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible be different depending on the age of the person? What if, for example, the person wasn’t a teenager but someone in his or her sixties?

That's some interesting background information. I had assumed you were his pastor or teacher.

I think your approach for a sexagenarian would necessarily be different than for a teen because the relationship is different. Plus, adults have more developed B.S. detectors.

 

[Lambano]

Would ways to help someone who has lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible be different depending on the age of the person? What if, for example, the person wasn’t a teenager but someone in his or her sixties?

A related question: How would your approach differ if the reason for losing confidence in the Bible was because of modern scientific information, or because of known self-contradictions within scripture? (Don't say they don't exist; plenty of websites point them out.)

 

[GodsGrace]

*The latest exciting episode of, Ask the Retired Pastor *

Who woulda thunk it?
Sorry Matthias....I just didn't know.

Yes. I’ve read Romans 1 and 2.

P.S.

The last time I read Romans 1 was on 10/21/24.

The last time I read Romans 2 was on 10/22/24.

That’s just where I am with the reading plan (twice through the New Testament) that I’m using this year.

Here's my point:
It was possible to know God before any bible existed.
Not everyone in the world has access to a bible.
Romans 1 and 2 addresses this.
Paul states that it has always been possible to know that God exists through His creation so that man is without excuse.
In Romans 2 he states that those that have no law are a law unto themselves...their conscience bearing witness.

I’m still thinking about what it means that you struck out the verses you posted. Looks like that has been corrected since I first saw it.

I did notice it and fixed it.
Computers have a mind of their own!

 

[GodsGrace]

Joshua 1:8

"This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success."

Psalm 1:2-3

"But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season..."

Psalm 119:11

"Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You."

Proverbs 2:1-5

"My son, if you receive my words, and treasure my commands within you... Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."

Isaiah 55:11

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please..."

Matthew 22:29

"Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.'"

John 8:31-32

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 'If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Romans 15:4

"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

2 Timothy 2:15

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

2 Timothy 3:16-17

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

These verses highlight that studying Scripture builds wisdom, character, and spiritual strength, equipping us for godly living and deepening our understanding of God’s purpose for us.

Agreed. It certainly is good to read the bible.
Are we supposed to worship the bible?

The verses you posted don't respond well to what is being discussed.

What is being discussed is this:
Someone trusted in the bible.
For some reason (which escapes me right now - maybe a muslim led him astray) he found some kind of fault with the bible.

The OP wants to know what we would have done.
I would have told him to trust God and not place his faith and trust in the bible.
I see this as being different from believe that the bible is not necessary for a good relationship with God.

Deuteronomy 8:3

"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna... that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord."

Psalm 119:50

"This is my comfort in my affliction, for Your word has given me life."

Psalm 119:93

"I will never forget Your precepts, for by them You have given me life."

Psalm 119:105

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."

Proverbs 4:20-22

"My son, give attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings... For they are life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh."

Matthew 4:4

"But He answered and said, 'It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'"

John 6:63

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

John 5:24

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Hebrews 4:12

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Peter 1:23

"Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever."



I’m confident that @Matthias directed his student back to the Scriptures to restore his wavering faith. There’s no such thing as relying too much on the Bible.

J.

There was probably never a census held in Jerusalem as is stated in Luke 2:1

Am I supposed to lose my faith?

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks. I‘m wondering why the people @GodsGrace is telling us about haven’t done that.

Different culture.
They just never laid their hands on a bible.
It wasn't made important to them.
Only JWs had bibles until just recently.
Maybe not too intelligent....what would they have understood of it anyway?
No bible studies in church.

Need more?

Not everyone that believes owns a bible.
(things have changed a bit - but the ones that had no bible were still saved persons if they met God's conditions).

 

[GodsGrace]

Does God have the power and might to do that? I believe he does. god can do anything

I hold to a six day creation young earth

I believe the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
This is determined geologically.
This has nothing to do with God as far as I'm concerned.

Probably closer to ten

Most of it is history. Especially the OT

History requires eye witnesses.
What eyewitness do we have for the OT?

What we have is God's INSPIRED word....
He inspired men to write about the beginning...
about how HE created everything.
HOW doesn't seem important to me.

Yes. But was it a big bang?

It sure sounds like it...although this could be debated.
I think we just don't know.
What we DO know is that God created everything....(through Jesus).

Maybe not. But unless it says to do otherwise lean toward literal

I tend to agree except for:
UNLESS IT SAYS TO DO OTHERWISE.

Where would you think the bible would tell you NOT to take it literally?
When men wrote what they wrote....they believed it to be literal.