The curious case of John 5:4

[GodsGrace]

Your church has a recent sermon on how to help someone who has lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible?



Welcome to the forum.

Matthias,
To recap....
If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the bible, it means we trusted THE BIBLE instead of GOD.

Another point I'd like to make regards a post of mine in which I tagged in a few members on here but received no reply.
It might have seemed off-topic, but really it wasn't.

I asked WHY we have trust in the NT and why we have faith,,,
or, exactly WHAT is our faith based on?

My faith is based on a story found in the bible, but it depends on WHO wrote it.

When Jesus was crucified the Apostles were afraid that they would be next.
They hid, most probably in the house of Mary and Martha, sisters of Lazarus.

A few days later, they were already sharing the gospel with great force and conviction.

What happened in those few days?
They saw a dead man come back to life.
They all had a horrible death (except for John) and only their belief in what they experienced could have provided the strength to live their life of sacrifice.

So it's not that the bible is wrong or cannot be trusted.
It's just that not all of it is literal....

I would have said this to your student.
Our trust should be In God
and in His Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

This goes to show my point I think

He did not know his wife UNTIL she gave birth

the literalist says that this just plainly says they had no sexual relations until the birth of Jesus.

The spiritualist still says they never had sex, so they can not take this verse literally or have to try to explain it away.

in my view. We should just take it as what it says

The word “know” is used to represent to know intimately, or sexual relations.

If Joseph and mary NEVER had sexual relations. Or if Joseph never KNEW mary intimately. Then there is absolutely no reason to put this in the word in fact it is meaningless.

Agreed.

 

[Matthias]

Matthias,
To recap....
If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the bible, it means we trusted THE BIBLE instead of GOD.

Another point I'd like to make regards a post of mine in which I tagged in a few members on here but received no reply.
It might have seemed off-topic, but really it wasn't.

I asked WHY we have trust in the NT and why we have faith,,,
or, exactly WHAT is our faith based on?

My faith is based on a story found in the bible, but it depends on WHO wrote it.

When Jesus was crucified the Apostles were afraid that they would be next.
They hid, most probably in the house of Mary and Martha, sisters of Lazarus.

A few days later, they were already sharing the gospel with great force and conviction.

What happened in those few days?
They saw a dead man come back to life.
They all had a horrible death (except for John) and only their belief in what they experienced could have provided the strength to live their life of sacrifice.

So it's not that the bible is wrong or cannot be trusted.
It's just that not all of it is literal....

I would have said this to your student.
Our trust should be In God
and in His Son.

How many people would believe in God and in the Messiah if there was no Bible?

The student I spoke about in the OP was on the cusp of throwing the Bible in a garbage can.

 

[Johann]

If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the bible, it means we trusted THE BIBLE instead of GOD.

Wrong!

The Bible is God's chosen means of revealing Himself to us. If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the Bible, it’s not merely a matter of misplacing trust—it reflects how integral Scripture is in our relationship with God. Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4, NKJV), pointing to the role of God’s Word in sustaining faith. While God is greater than the Bible itself, our understanding of who He is, what He promises, and what He calls us to believe and trust largely comes through Scripture. Losing confidence in the Bible can thus affect our faith in God, as it weakens the foundation upon which that faith rests.

By reaffirming trust in the Bible, we’re ultimately reaffirming our trust in God, who provided His Word to instruct, comfort, and guide us in faith.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

How many people would believe in God and in the Messiah if there was no Bible?

Do you mean if there were no bible at their disposal or do you mean that they never heard of Jesus?
I know persons that are saved that never held a bible in their hand.

The student I spoke about in the OP was on the cusp of throwing the Bible in a garbage can.

Right. Because he was trusting the bible instead of trusting God.

 

[Matthias]

Do you mean if there were no bible at their disposal or do you mean that they never heard of Jesus?

Either situation is fine to consider.

How effective do you think this presentation would be -

“Good afternoon, sir. I see that you have a Bible. May I see it?”

”Sure.”

(Tosses the Bible in a trash receptacle.)

”You won’t be needing that. I’d like to tell you about the one true God and about the Messiah.”

I know persons that are saved that never held a bible in their hand.

While I think that’s possible, I don’t know any that are.

Right. Because he was trusting the bible instead of trusting God.

He should have had, and eventually did, confidence in the reliability of the Bible, in God, and in the Messiah.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong!

The Bible is God's chosen means of revealing Himself to us. If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the Bible, it’s not merely a matter of misplacing trust—it reflects how integral Scripture is in our relationship with God. Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4, NKJV), pointing to the role of God’s Word in sustaining faith. While God is greater than the Bible itself, our understanding of who He is, what He promises, and what He calls us to believe and trust largely comes through Scripture. Losing confidence in the Bible can thus affect our faith in God, as it weakens the foundation upon which that faith rests.

By reaffirming trust in the Bible, we’re ultimately reaffirming our trust in God, who provided His Word to instruct, comfort, and guide us in faith.

J.

But what words come out of the mouth of God?
Can we know them if we've never even seen a bible?
We must remember Romans 1 and 2

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 2:14-16
14For when Gentiles who do not have [q]the Law [r]instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having Romans 2 New American Standard Biblethe Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

For me these are very important verses.
I know the NT....what does that get me?
Many atheists are able to argue against the bible because they know it so well.

It's our faith in God that saves us,
not our faith in either the OT or the NT.

It helps us to know God. God revealed Himself through the Hebrews because they were good story tellers and would be able to pass down what God revealed from generation to generation.

But it's still their FAITH that saved them....
The bible did not always exist.

The studen Matthias is speaking of LOST HIS FAITH because he depended too much on the bible.
Isn't this a bad sign?

 

[Ritajanice]

While I think that’s possible, I don’t know any that are.

Im one of them,I became Born Again by divine heart revelation.having never read a Bible...but, that would be discussed on another thread,as it’s off topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Either situation is fine to consider.

How effective do you think this presentation would be -

“Good afternoon, sir. I see that you have a Bible. May I see it?”

”Sure.”

(Tosses the Bible in a trash receptacle.)

”You won’t be needing that. I’d like to tell you about the one true God and about the Messiah.”

Did I say I don't trust the bible?
I think there's a misunderstanding here.

I said we have to worship GOD
NOT THE BIBLE.

Can't make it clearer than that.
Some worship the bible.

Then when a conflict arises,,,they lose faith IN WHAT THEY WORSHIPED.
And drag God along with it.

While I think that’s possible, I don’t know any that are.

You must live in a big metropolis.
There are PLENTY of persons here where I live that have never picked up a bible and that are as saved as saved could be.

He should have had, and eventually did, confidence in the reliability of the Bible, in God, and in the Messiah.

This is good.
I hope he never finds any conflicts.

 

[Matthias]

Im one of them,but, that would be discussed on another thread,as it’s off topic.

Well I guess now I can say that I’m acquainted with someone who was saved without ever having a Bible in their hand.

This thread has meandered from the second post forward. How were you saved without having a Bible to see for yourself if what you were told was true or not?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I guess now I can say that I’m acquainted with someone who was saved without ever having a Bible in their hand.

This thread has meandered from the second post forward. How were you saved without having a Bible to see for yourself if what you were told was true or not?

Did you ever read Romans 1 and 2?
I posted verses from there just above.....

What do you think it means?

 

[Ritajanice]

Well I guess now I can say that I’m acquainted with someone who was saved without ever having a Bible in their hand.

This thread has meandered from the second post forward. How were you saved without having a Bible to see for yourself if what you were told was true or not?

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children,Spirit gives birth to spirit, my spirit was Born Again by the seed of God...the seed of God is His Living Witness ,the Holy Spirit,who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit..which comes by divine heart revelation ,just as his word says...

This @Matthias ..was exactly how I was Born Of The Spirit.

Berean Standard Bible

Par ▾

Jesus and Nicodemus
(Genesis 22:1–10; Romans 5:6–11)
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong!

The Bible is God's chosen means of revealing Himself to us. If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the Bible, it’s not merely a matter of misplacing trust—it reflects how integral Scripture is in our relationship with God. Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4, NKJV), pointing to the role of God’s Word in sustaining faith. While God is greater than the Bible itself, our understanding of who He is, what He promises, and what He calls us to believe and trust largely comes through Scripture. Losing confidence in the Bible can thus affect our faith in God, as it weakens the foundation upon which that faith rests.

By reaffirming trust in the Bible, we’re ultimately reaffirming our trust in God, who provided His Word to instruct, comfort, and guide us in faith.

J.

Let me say it this way Johann....
If the bible disappeared tomorrow,,,,
I'd still believe in God and worship Him.

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I guess now I can say that I’m acquainted with someone who was saved without ever having a Bible in their hand.

Perfect!
So
What saves us THE BIBLE
or
GOD?

Why would a person have to have a bible in their hands in order to be saved?
THIS makes my point exactly.

Add me to your list...
add my brother to your list....
add many persons I know to your list....

Make a trip here, I'll let you meet a whole bunch of persons that are saved and never read a bible.

They worship GOD
Not a BIBLE....

This thread has meandered from the second post forward. How were you saved without having a Bible to see for yourself if what you were told was true or not?

What truth do you need to know Matthias?
God reveals Himself to us...
we accept or deny Him.

From there we carry on living for Him....
If we don't deny Him,,,
He won't deny us.

Interesting that a person can know this without ever having read Timothy.

 

[Ritajanice]

Let me say it this way Johann....
If the bible disappeared tomorrow,,,,
I'd still believe in God and worship Him.

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself correctly.

Because you know God in your heart, I believe?

 

[Ritajanice]

They worship GOD
Not a BIBLE...

100% Amen!

Best I get back on topic, apologies @Matthias .

 

[Matthias]

Did I say I don't trust the bible?
I think there's a misunderstanding here.

The subject of the thread was how to help someone who has lost trust in the reliability of the Bible.

I said we have to worship GOD
NOT THE BIBLE.

Yes, I understand that. The student worshipped God before his encounter with the Muslim.

Can't make it clearer than that.
Some worship the bible.

Forget God. Just give me a Bible?

Then when a conflict arises,,,they lose faith IN WHAT THEY WORSHIPED.
And drag God along with it.

The student didn’t worship the Bible. He had confidence in the reliability of the Bible, lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible, and regained confidence in the reliability of the Bible.

You must live in a big metropolis.

Yes. We have one stop light, a gas station, a post office, a Dollar General store, a government elementary school and a barbershop. (But I live three miles away.)

There are PLENTY of persons here where I live that have never picked up a bible and that are as saved as saved could be.

Why haven’t they picked up a Bible?

This is good.
I hope he never finds any conflicts.

Conflicts with what? Conflicts with who?

 

[ScottA]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

I would say to the student, "Many words from God are given before their time, only to be revealed when the times are fulfilled."

In the case of John 5:4, this is that time and healing has come. You are the student.

 

[Matthias]

Perfect!
So
What saves us THE BIBLE
or
GOD?

God.

Why would a person have to have a bible in their hands in order to be saved?

Where are they getting their information from?

THIS makes my point exactly.

Add me to your list...
add my brother to your list....
add many persons I know to your list....

Make a trip here, I'll let you meet a whole bunch of persons that are saved and never read a bible.

They worship GOD
Not a BIBLE....

Why haven’t they read the Bible?

What truth do you need to know Matthias?

Everyone needs to know the words of God. Everyone needs to know the words of the Messiah and the Apostles. Everyone needs to know the words of the prophets. Everyone needs to know what is contained in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament.

God reveals Himself to us...
we accept or deny Him.

God reveals himself in the Bible and, in a general way, in the creation.

From there we carry on living for Him....
If we don't deny Him,,,
He won't deny us.

Interesting that a person can know this without ever having read Timothy.

Why would someone not have any interest in reading the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

@Matthias
this is going to have to wait till tomorrow...
but, to me, it's an important topic.
Yeah...sounds like you live in a really big metropolis!!
LOL
'night.