Return of the prodigal angel - The Triumph of Grace

[Aunty Jane]

All humans are deserving of the Creators condemnation. All humans deserve to go to the Lake of fire that was prepared for those of the previous creation, the devil and his angels. The millions or billions or trillions of them.

All humans are born with the stain of sin in their DNA. This imperfection is not something we asked for, and not something that God wants to punish us for….he “does not desire any to PERISH, but desires all to attain to repentance”. (2 Peter 3:9)

The word translated “perish” here is “apollymi” ……and it means…

“to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin”

We aren’t talking about a holding tank for souls to mull over their past mistakes and feel regret…..”the lake of fire is “Gehenna” and those who go into this place of punishment do not come out. It is called “the second death“….a death from which no one is resurrected. It means a permanent punishment of eternal death…like that person never existed.

What makes you think that God has any place in his Kingdom for those who would imitate the first rebels?
Isn’t the state of the world enough proof that they do not deserve to live in a world where obedience is the prime requirement, because life itself is a precious privilege granted to so few, (when we consider the number of potential human beings who are never born.)
Those who cannot, or will not obey their Creator in this life, will never get to disobey him in the “new earth” to come. (2 Peter 3:13) Only those who have proven their worth in this world, will get to enjoy the new one.

It is of interest to note from the Scriptures that “death and hades” are hurled into “the lake of fire”, (Rev 20:13-14) but that the receptacle itself is never destroyed……it will serve as a place of punishment for all eternity because free will was a gift that God went to a lot of trouble to maintain…..perfect creatures in the beginning misused their free will and forced God to take the action he did to preserve it.
Any who choose to do so in the future will never be allowed to put their plans into action after one final test revealed in Rev 20:1-3.

And let's leave it there shall we.

Apparently not……LOL…
I will address you last post next…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

Tell me. Do you have a better plan as to how the Creators could unveil, display, make known Their undisclosed character? Some of these being, mercy, grace, forgiveness, longsuffering without presenting an offense?

I am puzzled by your reference to “the creators“ (plural) as the Bible tells us that there is only one Creator.

A person’s character is never “undisclosed” to God.
He knows what we think, what our motivations are, and every thought and intention of our heart.
He does not wait for us to repent after we have died……that has to take place first.
There is no immortal soul, so there is nowhere for humans to suffer after death.

It has been said that God, according to His eternal purpose, is revealing His manifold wisdom to an audience.
To illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Eph 3:9-11

The ‘sacred mystery’ was hidden until the coming of the Christ. Up until that time, the Jewish understanding of the Kingdom of God was entirely earthly, with the restoration of the Jews as “the royal priesthood and a holy nation” that they expected to be…..but literal Israel proved unworthy of that promise and because of their rejection of the Messiah, and their part in his murder, they lost their place, which was pictured in the parable of the rich man who died to God…..their place in the Kingdom was now offered to the beggar, pictured by “the lost sheep”, to whom Jesus was sent. All of the first Christian’s were Jewish….and every word written in God’s word was penned by a Jew.
God chose a new nation to replace the disobedient ones that he abandoned as hopeless and useless.

A “remnant” of fleshly Jews was prophesied to be “saved”, and that remnant were the ones who accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. (Acts 15:14) “The Israel of God” were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Gal 6:16)

Rom 2:28-29….
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

There was need for an offense so it would stimulate God to respond with His hidden character. This was to generate jealously and envy within the hearts of those who were cut off because of their offenses, Satan and his angels,

As like with Israel where God cut them off for the purpose of provoking them to jealousy so they will repent and be grafted back in.

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Rom 11:13-15

Of course…..the way was always open for natural Jews to accept Jesus as Messiah, but the nation as a whole did not because of their pathetic leadership….and to this day, still do not.….many vehemently.

Individuals have always been acceptable to God as long as they were obedient to the teachings of his son.
Gentiles too, once Israel had been given first option, were welcomed into the fold.

Yes life from the dead, even dead in the lake of fire. God is more than capable of making Himself and His character irresistible. He has chosen to use His character of mercy and grace to stimulate Satan's character of envy and jealous. This will lead him and his angels along with every creature in the lake of fire to repentance. Hallelujah! God's manifold wisdom is incredible!

God does not need to make himself more “irresistible” than what he already is…..his mercy is in complete alignment with his justice….he is not a sentimental God, but one who requires certain characteristics in his worshippers…..loyalty is a big one, which prompts one to be obedient, not out of fear…but out of love.

The ones Christ died for will live….the ones who willfully disobeyed God in this judgment period, whether in heaven or on earth will not get a second chance. God has no place in his Kingdom for disobedience. All will have been given ample time to repent before the judgment……too late then. But Christ’s sacrifice only covers humans, not angels.
Do you understand what redemption is?

No one ever comes out of “the lake of fire”….can you find a scripture that even suggests such a thing?

Jesus did not die to redeem angels……he died to redeem those who were willing to bring their lives into harmony with God’s very reasonable requirements, because they understand that sin is part of their reality….it’s not something they have control over….but they do have control over what they choose to do (their actions)…..God does not force anyone to obey him…..but he does inform them of the consequences of that disobedience…..like any good parent, his rules are always for our good….not because he wants to be the fun police.

 

[One 2 question]

I am puzzled by your reference to “the creators“ (plural) as the Bible tells us that there is only one Creator.

Let Us make man in Our image and likeness.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. Gen 3:22

A person’s character is never “undisclosed” to God.

I think you misread what I had posted. It was God's character that was hidden not man's.

He knows what we think, what our motivations are, and every thought and intention of our heart.
He does not wait for us to repent after we have died……that has to take place first.
There is no immortal soul, so there is nowhere for humans to suffer after death.

The soul that Jesus said His Father can cast in hell will end up being thrown into the lake of fire according to what John saw and recorded.

God chose a new nation to replace the disobedient ones that he abandoned as hopeless and useless.

the nation as a whole did not because of their pathetic leadership….and to this day, still do not.….many vehemently.

Gentiles too, once Israel had been given first option, were welcomed into the fold.

some take what God said through Paul somewhat seriously and I am one of them. Gentile nations will never replace God's chosen people but individuals gentile can join the Jews. I won't be arrogant or boastful as a wild branch over the natural ones, the Jews.

Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

God does not need to make himself more “irresistible” than what he already is

He certainly isn’t obligated to make His grace irresistible, but He will, to all in the lake of fire.

All will have been given ample time to repent before the judgment……too late then. But Christ’s sacrifice only covers humans, not angels.

Who told you that Christ's sacrifice only covers humans, not angels? Did the Spirit tell you that? To my knowledge, the bible doesn't.

Jesus did not die to redeem angels

Again, who told you this?

 

[One 2 question]

No one ever comes out of “the lake of fire”….can you find a scripture that even suggests such a thing?

Have you seen into the future to see that no one comes out of the lake of fire? Did God's Spirit tell you this? Tell us more.

 

[One 2 question]

Christ’s sacrifice only covers humans, not angels.
Do you understand what redemption is?

No one ever comes out of “the lake of fire”….can you find a scripture that even suggests such a thing?

Jesus did not die to redeem angels

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Does God say through Paul, by Him reconcile a few things, most things or all things? ALL.

Only things on earth, only things in heaven? EVERYWHERE

Reconciling and making peace through what? THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS.

Father can reconcile, redeem, restore whoever He wants however He wants. He has chosen to use His Son Jesus's blood. And if that satisfies Him who am I to argue. If He chooses this means to redeem and reconcile ALL and EVERYONE then again, who am I to argue.

I don't argue but praise Him for forgiving, cleansing and redeeming ALL to Himself.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let Us make man in Our image and likeness.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. Gen 3:22

Who was Jehovah talking to? Not himself.
Paul gives us a clear picture in Col 1:15-17….speaking of God’s “firstborn”…..he says….

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all things were made to exist”.

Being the “firstborn of all creation”, makes him part of that creation (Rev 3:14)….”by means of him all things were created”….”all things have been created through him and for him”.

The son was the means through whom God created all things…it’s called agency and it means that God alone is Creator, providing all the materials necessary for his son to fashion creation under his Father’s guidance and direction. There is not a single Scripture that calls Jesus “the Creator”.

I think you misread what I had posted. It was God's character that was hidden not man's.

Perhaps I did and I apologize, but having said that, I do not find God’s character hidden at all. Throughout the entire Bible Jehovah is demonstrating his character.….Jesus reflected his Father’s personality and character perfectly. What is hidden?

The soul that Jesus said His Father can cast in hell will end up being thrown into the lake of fire according to what John saw and recorded.

John 3:16 clearly states that those in Gehenna are “destroyed”….(Gr “apollymi”) “perish”.
“Hell” is hades……hades is the grave…it releases its dead…..the lake of fire does not.
Death and hades are cast into Gehenna….to be destroyed. (Rev 20:13-14)

some take what God said through Paul somewhat seriously and I am one of them. Gentile nations will never replace God's chosen people but individuals gentile can join the Jews. I won't be arrogant or boastful as a wild branch over the natural ones, the Jews.

Did you miss the Scripture where Paul identifies what it means to be a “Jew”….to God. He chose a new nation to replace those who could never do as they were told…..their appalling history is recorded for us so that we could understand from their bad example what not to do, and what not to be, if we want to please “the only true God”……and understand why the one whom he “sent” (Jesus) had to die for us.

He certainly isn’t obligated to make His grace irresistible, but He will, to all in the lake of fire

Those in the lake of fire are forever dead…..God’s grace does not reach them. They had their chance and they blew it. Like the days of Noah…remember? (Matt 24:37-39)
How many survived the flood that Noah had warned them about for decades? How many of them would have been banging with their fists on the side of the ark as the waters rose…..they got the message….but too late…..so will those bound for Gehenna.

Who told you that Christ's sacrifice only covers humans, not angels? Did the Spirit tell you that? To my knowledge, the bible doesn't.

If you understand what redemption is you would know. How does one redeem an item that has been pawned? They have to come up with the exact amount agreed upon as to its value.
Jesus came to atone for the sins of mankind. What is atonement? It’s “at-one-ment”….one for one….an equal amount taken is the equal amount given.…to “cover” something. We can offer an amount of money to someone and say “this should cover it”…..Jesus life “covers“ ours.
Jesus is called “the last Adam” because his sinless life atoned for the sinless life that Adam lost for his children.
It does not relate to angels at all, since there is no life given to cover their sins. Angels that sin do so willfully and deliberately….they have no sin nature to explain their defection, or any excuse to offer to their Creator as a reason for their disloyalty.

Have you seen into the future to see that no one comes out of the lake of fire? Did God's Spirit tell you this? Tell us more.

Since the Bible never mentions anyone coming back from the lake of fire, it is evident that what goes into that symbolic place, never comes out. All wicked unrepentant humanity, as well as all the angels who followed satan in rebellion, will go to that place…never to be seen again.

 

[Johann]

Being the “firstborn of all creation”, makes him part of that creation (Rev 3:14)….”by means of him all things were created”….”all things have been created through him and for him”.

If by "firstborn of all creation" you think Jesus was a "created being" you are in error @Aunty Jane.

J.

 

[One 2 question]

Who was Jehovah talking to? Not himself.
Paul gives us a clear picture in Col 1:15-17….speaking of God’s “firstborn”…..he says….

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all things were made to exist”.

Being the “firstborn of all creation”, makes him part of that creation (Rev 3:14)….”by means of him all things were created”….”all things have been created through him and for him”.

The son was the means through whom God created all things…it’s called agency and it means that God alone is Creator, providing all the materials necessary for his son to fashion creation under his Father’s guidance and direction. There is not a single Scripture that calls Jesus “the Creator”.


Perhaps I did and I apologize, but having said that, I do not find God’s character hidden at all. Throughout the entire Bible Jehovah is demonstrating his character.….Jesus reflected his Father’s personality and character perfectly. What is hidden?

John 16:3 clearly states that those in Gehenna are “destroyed”….(Gr “apollymi”) “perish”.
“Hell” is hades……hades is the grave…it releases its dead…..the lake of fire does not.
Death and hades are cast into Gehenna….to be destroyed. (Rev 20:13-14)

Did you miss the Scripture where Paul identifies what it means to be a “Jew”….to God. He chose a new nation to replace those who could never do as they were told…..their appalling history is recorded for us so that we could understand from their bad example what not to do, and what not to be, if we want to please “the only true God”……and understand why the one whom he “sent” (Jesus) had to die for us.

Those in the lake of fire are forever dead…..God’s grace does not reach them. They had their chance and they blew it. Like the days of Noah…remember? (Matt 24:37-39)
How many survived the flood that Noah had warned them about for decades? How many of them would have been banging with their fists on the side of the ark as the waters rose…..they got the message….but too late…..so will those bound for Gehenna.

If you understand what redemption is you would know. How does one redeem an item that has been pawned? They have to come up with the exact amount agreed upon as to its value.
Jesus came to atone for the sins of mankind. What is atonement? It’s “at-one-ment”….one for one….an equal amount taken is the equal amount given.…to “cover” something. We can offer an amount of money to someone and say “this should cover it”…..Jesus life “covers“ ours.
Jesus is called “the last Adam” because his sinless life atoned for the sinless life that Adam lost for his children.
It does not relate to angels at all, since there is no life given to cover their sins. Angels that sin do so willfully and deliberately….they have no sin nature to explain their defection, or any excuse to offer to their Creator as a reason for their disloyalty.

Since the Bible never mentions anyone coming back from the lake of fire, it is evident that what goes into that symbolic place, never comes out. All wicked unrepentant humanity, as well as all the angels who followed satan in rebellion, will go to that place…never to be seen again.

This is where the information in the bible is extremly limited. It doesn't enlighten us about the details of what was before the angels were created.

Nor does it contain details of what is beyond the revelation given to John of the coming of the New Jerusalem to planet earth.

Some people may watch part of a movie then push the pause button or stop button never to return to watch more.

The bible has a little information about this creation but almost no details of how the angels were created and what they did before Genesis 1:1.

Yet they are such an integral part of God's narrative. As according to His eternal purpose, the audience for which the material realm was created are the angels. They are very important to God.

 

[One 2 question]

If you understand what redemption is you would know. How does one redeem an item that has been pawned? They have to come up with the exact amount agreed upon as to its value.

Who's in possess of the pawned item? Who determines the value of any particular item up for redemption?

 

[One 2 question]

If by "firstborn of all creation" you think Jesus was a "created being" you are in error @Aunty Jane.

J.

Wasn't Jesus a son of God. God gave his son. Unto us a child is born, unto us a child is given. He was God's son first, born in heaven and sent to earth.

There are questions I can't answer like these.

Who birthed God's son in heaven?

Was Jesus created in heaven or birthed in heaven?

Was Jesus an angel who he sent from heaven to this creation as the Lamb of God? Was it an angel who died for the sins of the world?

 

[Johann]

Wasn't Jesus a son of God. God gave his son. Unto us a child is born, unto us a child I'd given. He was God's son first, born in heaven and sent to earth. A question I can't answer is, who birthed God's son in heaven?
And, was Jesus created in heaven or birthed in heaven?

Jesus is the eternal Son of God, begotten of the Father, and not created. He was sent to earth for the purpose of salvation but has always existed in perfect unity with the Father. Questions regarding His origin should be approached with an understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine, which emphasizes the eternal nature of Jesus and His unique relationship within the Godhead.

J.

 

[One 2 question]

Questions regarding His origin should be approached with an understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine

Why? Who said we should approach with an understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine?

 

[Johann]

Why? Who said we should approach with an understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine?

You believe Messiah was a created being?

J.

 

[One 2 question]

Jesus is the eternal Son of God, begotten of the Father, and not created.

What do you mean by begotten of the Father? Was he begotten in heaven first, or only when he appeared into this material creation?

 

[One 2 question]

You believe Messiah was a created being?

J.

I'm just asking questions. Questions I hear others asking.

 

[Johann]

What do you mean by begotten of the Father? Was he begotten in heaven first, or only when he appeared into this material creation?

What do you mean by begotten of the Father? Was he begotten in heaven first, or only when he appeared into this material creation?

I asked you a question-Do you believe Messiah was a "created being?" Yes or No?

J.

 

[Johann]

I'm just asking questions. Questions I hear others asking.

You are deflecting-what is YOUR belief regarding the Messiah and the fact that He was begotten ( μονογενής, monogenēs)?

J.

 

[One 2 question]

I asked you a question-Do you believe Messiah was a "created being?" Yes or No?

J.

I won't answer your question just yet.

 

[Johann]

I won't answer your question just yet.

So don’t be surprised if I choose not to respond to any of your questions.

J.

 

[One 2 question]

You are deflecting-what is YOUR belief regarding the Messiah and the fact that He was begotten ( μονογενής, monogenēs)?

He was begotten in heaven, some say. Others, on earth through Mary.