Return of the prodigal angel - The Triumph of Grace
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Those who don't die after going through the great tribulation where the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God and Jesus comes and consumes him with the brightness of His coming.
These survivors will continue to live on after Jesus's return and establishes His 1000 year kingdom.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I was making an observation on the words of not the rock. I do not believer everyone will be saved. Only the foreknown, chosen elect and predestined will be saved.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
He told Christ to teach us (humans) to “love our enemies”….but what “love” is this? Is it the kind that makes us want to embrace them? NO! This is “agape”….a love that is based on principle, not emotion…..because we are sinful humans and need to curb our emotions with regard to who is an actual enemy….”agape” allows us not to feel hatred, and therefore not to commit violence against them in retaliation. It is the exercise of self control…a fruit of God’s spirit. It’s what the martyrs felt for their persecutors. No hatred.
Personal enemies are the hardest because of the reasons that they become enemies in the first place.
Agape means not retaliating or returning evil for evil. (Rom 12:17-21)
This has a connotation that you have not acknowledged…. Every knee and every tongue will indeed “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” But even in defeat, those judged as unworthy of the gift of life will have to acknowledge that Jesus has judged them in true justice, not accepting that their worship was founded on God’s truth…but on their own version of it.
How many ways has man invented to worship this one God of the Bible? Can God accept them all? Did he not demonstrate with his nation Israel that he accepts no worship that is outside of his stated limitations. When Israel made excursions into false worship, he punished them with death. He will accept no excuses. (Matt 7:21-23) ”Few” will be found on the road to life”. (Matt 7:13-14) Like it or not….it’s not our call to tell God how to conduct his own business, or how to operate within the confines of his own justice.
A very misinterpreted parable if used to suggest that a perfect spirit being who willfully sinned can be placed in the same category as the son in this story.
Humans inherited sin with the physical body they were born with. (Rom 5:12)
This son did not appreciate his place in his father’s house and wanted to live his life as he desired, so he wanted his inheritance then and there, to live the life he thought would make him happy, relieved of the confines of his fathers rules.
He squandered his whole inheritance and his false friend soon abandoned him once the money ran out. Destitute and desperate he determined to return to his father completely defeated, and ask to be one of his hired workers, knowing that his father was not obligated to give him anything more.
What was the father’s response? He “saw him afar off“ and knew by his demeanor that he had come home humbled and contrite. For this his father ran to meet him and restored him to his place in the family even though he did not deserve it.
The father pictures God…and the son represents all who leave their father to live an immoral life in the world. But it’s a cruel and difficult place, when the world chews you up and spits you out in the gutter.
When that happens, pride will either force you to stay in the gutter, or you will swallow it and humbly admit your error and ask the Father’s forgiveness. This parable shows the magnitude of the Father’s forgiveness, but only because of the humble repentance shown by the prodigal son. A different attitude would have been met with a different response.
Nowhere does it say that the devil and his minions have any way to repent, because there is no basis upon which to forgive them. Jesus did not die for them, but for the ones who inherited sin from Adam…a condition that was not their choice. The choices we have as a response to his sacrifice are the ones upon which we will be judged.
Nope….that’s not how “grace” works. Imperfect humans are born with a sin nature, angels are created perfect (sinless) as Adam was in the beginning.
Perfect creatures do not make mistakes or errors in judgment…they know what is right because God has instructed them to obey him in all things. When a perfect creature sins, they have sentenced themselves to the stated penalty, which was death. “The wages sin pays is death”….no matter whether you are a human son of God, or an angelic one. The death they experience is permanent.
When Jesus comes as judge of all the earth, he will “separate the sheep from the goats” and the goats will go to the same place that is reserved for the wicked angels…..”the lake of fire”….which is God’s means of disposing of garbage….willfully disobedient human garbage, as well as the demonic garbage they chose to be.
What is the point of allowing wicked humans or angels to stay around and spoil life for everyone else?
What God will establish is what he purposed in the beginning. (Isa 55:11; Rev 21:2-4)
The choices made by three rebels in the beginning, derailed that purpose temporarily, but it did not defeat it.
The miracles performed in the Bible demonstrate the power that our Creator has at his disposal. Every one of those things you mentioned was carried out as part of his will and purpose in bringing about a successful conclusion to the whole reason for our being here.
So why are we here….StS?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not here on the forums StS……but here on the Earth as a creation of God? Why did God put us here if we were just going to heaven anyway?…..seems pointless to subject the human race to such suffering if it wasn’t necessary and all were going to be saved in the end anyway….?
No. Not pointless at all.
At the restoration of all things, God will make everything right. His divine justice will bring correction/healing/restoration/redemption to all.
The ultimate triumph of grace. IMHO
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You didn’t answer my question…..why was it necessary in the first place to subject the human race to such tragedy, pain and suffering, if he was only going to make it all right, and save anyone anyway?
Make some sense of that for me….
It's the wrong question. Or at least based on a false premise. IMHO
I can't say why we had to suffer in this life other than the triumph of grace that awaits us.
Making it all right is not going to be a snap of the fingers. (poof, all better - LOL)
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The refining fire will burn away the dross.
Imagine having every moment of your life revealed to everyone who has ever lived.
And making things right with those you have hurt. Restoration and healing.
Very difficult.
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
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face2face
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According to His Righteousness - some He will treat with Kindness others with Harshness and many with severity as He has shown.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yet the whole of the Bible’s narrative hinges on the fall of man and how God regains control of the human race.
There was an alienation that occurred by the misuse of free will…first in the spirit realm, and then it transferred over to the physical world. A rebel spirit described in the Bible as magnificent, began to envy the worship given to the Creator and wanted that for himself. But his fellow angels were his equal in power, so he could not be their “god”…he could only their leader. But first he had to establish himself as a god….one who could receive worship, even unwittingly by lower, less powerful creatures of intelligence.
Identified as the “Covering cherub“ in Eden ( a position of guardianship) he was right there plotting how he would use the woman to get to the man and cause a separation between the humans and their God. Once he had separated them from Jehovah….he had them!
That tells us WHAT God was going to do…but not WHY. Why was there a need for “grace” in the first place?
Why would God allow the humans to disobey him if it was going to result in the world as we know it today, filled with violence, immorality and bloodshed?
Because God created humans alone with free will….(as part of being created in God’s image), they would represent him here as the ones assigned to take care of it all….and being assigned as caretakers meant that free will (used under God’s direction and within his limitations) would be a wonderful asset….but abused and taken beyond those limits, free will became a curse.
Every act of wickedness is an abuse of free will. Every wicked word is an abuse of free will…..Jesus came to show us how to drive this faculty, as God instructed. Jesus was a perfect man, living in an imperfect world with imperfect people….so his example is a perfect one, but difficult for us sinners to follow.
Where does this scenario come from?
Those “weeping an gnashing their teeth” are the ones who are about to suffer the fate of those who hate God and fail to do kind deeds to his “brothers”. (Matt 25:31-46)
You have to be alive to express emotions….those “weeping and gnashing their teeth” have come to the awful realization that they have put their faith in the wrong people….the wrong doctrines….and the wrong religion.
Yes, the fire of God’s anger at those who despise his authority and who willfully flout his laws will come down on them like a ton of bricks. ”Who can endure the day of his coming” and “stand when he appears”?
Good questions for the Universalists….because there is “the lake of fire” that God has reserved for the devil and his demons, as well as those who side with the devil on the day of God’s judgment. “Gehenna” represents eternal death for those whom God considers unworthy of life, these will be removed from existence because, simply put, God has no desire to keep disobedient ones in existence to spoil life for everyone else.
God’s laws given to his people Israel, support the fact that God is a lawgiver and enforcer…..you don’t have to like God’s laws….but you must obey them. Obedience was all that God ever asked of his servants.
It was disobedience that got us into this mess in the beginning……obedience will get us out of it, but only after we have seen firsthand where our disobedience can take us. God allowed us to experience the greatest life lesson of all time, to show us the importance of listening and obeying God’s instructions to the letter….with no deviation or excuses. Otherwise we will be on the receiving end of God’s anger. (Matt 7:21-23)
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Again when you use the term, will be saved, what are you meaning specifically? Saved from what? Saved for what?
When one goes amoung the trash and grabs things out from amoung all the contents in the bin, they do it to SAVE those particular item for a purpose. So they can cash them in. The business who pays the cash for these items recycle them so that they can be repurposed.
The rest of the trash is used as landfill. Maybe a lesser purpose but still of use none the less.
So for God to SAVE or redeem certain people out from the rest is important because it is for a purpose. My focus is on those who are chosen, saved, redeemed because God has a plan for them.
Someone may ask. What about the rest? Does God have a plan, a purpose or use for them? Of course He does. But that purpose will not be evident or realised til later, possibly much later.
So, will be saved, what does it mean to you my friend?
All humans are deserving of the Creators condemnation. All humans deserve to go to the Lake of fire that was prepared for those of the previous creation, the devil and his angels. The millions or billions or trillions of them.
And let's leave it there shall we.
I don't identify as a universalist BTW. Yet I know that everyone will be of use in Creators never ending kingdom.
A few, those whose names are written in Jesus's book of life, will join Him in His short 1000 year dynasty and into His Father's never ending dynasy.
The rest will join us to carry out their God given role. Then all will be saved for the purpose of fulfilling their God appointed tasks.
Nothing and no one is wasted in God's economy. Even spending time in waiting in the lake of fire will not be wasted as this will give them time to come to their senses, like the prodigal son.
What a fantastic story and plan God has thought up and is I'm the process of fulfilling. To think that we are a part of this magnificent production is beyond amazing. All the Broadway productions combined will never come close to God's.
As when at the end of every production the actors and crew join together on stage to take a bow, so too, ALL humans and angels will bow before our Creators. What a brilliant hope we have in our God. For I know that God's love and God's zeal will accomplish this.
Yet it can't mean us BORN in Adam as we were of our Father the devil, condemned already as Jesus said. We were never a son as in the parable. We were not born into that Father's family if the father is Jesus's Father.
The Jews probably. But there is a dual application to this parable. Satan was with God His Creator. He took 1/3 of God's possessions (angels) and left. He is misusing His Creator's angels for his own purposes. Once things get very bad for him, in the lake of fire, he will come to his senses, remember from where and from Whom he came.
Remembering his Creators goodness, kindness, mercy, grace and love he will repent. Turning towards (returning to) his former Object of worship with a repentant heart he will find what he seeks, the forgiveness and enduring love his Creator.
Wow! What a divine reunion that will be. God the Creators will be all and in ALL. Praise Him for revealing Himself to ALL of His creations.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong. all are already lost! they were not predestined. Predestination has to do with god showing mewrcy on some of the lost. It is about HIm and not us. We deserve hell-everyone of us! If God chose to have mercy on some or none- that is His business and He is just in doing so.
Remember man rebels against God and not God rebelling against man. People speak of the love of God and He is love! but God is also perfectly holy and perfectly just! And His love cannot embrace what cannot stand in the presence of His perfect holiness.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Saved from the lake of fire. Saved for the glory of God and to serve HIm as we were created for!
It means I was redeemed from the eternal torment of the lake of fire, made a child of God, given a new nature and made a new creature with a new mind!
Revelation 4:11
King James Version
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.God is not content on leaving it at that. And for that I am eternally grateful. As we play the tape forward we know God has had mercy on His chosen out ones from amoung the nations, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Then God chose Jesus's disciples, His body, His Bride and redeemed us out from every nation, people, tribe and tongue.
All of us have been plucked from the fire that we deserve to spend eternity in.
And why do some get upset when it is revealed that God isn't content on saving, redeeming, reconciling, restoring some but ALL of His creation. These people seem to delight in the suffering of their fellow human kind. Why? Isn't it far better to celebrate God's loving kindness than His wrath. Are they behaving like the unmercifully servant Jesus told His first disciples about.
Let's highlight the Creators redeeming love for every created creature and worship Him for His mercy that endures forever, amen.
Tell me. Do you have a better plan as to how the Creators could unveil, display, make known Their undisclosed character? Some of these being, mercy, grace, forgiveness, longsuffering without presenting an offense?
It has been said that God, according to His eternal purpose, is revealing His manifold wisdom to an audience.
To illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Eph 3:9-11
There was need for an offense so it would stimulate God to respond with His hidden character. This was to generate jealously and envy within the hearts of those who were cut off because of their offenses, Satan and his angels,
As like with Israel where God cut them off for the purpose of provoking them to jealousy so they will repent and be grafted back in.
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Rom 11:13-15
Yes life from the dead, even dead in the lake of fire. God is more than capable of making Himself and His character irresistible. He has chosen to use His character of mercy and grace to stimulate Satan's character of envy and jealous. This will lead him and his angels along with every creature in the lake of fire to repentance. Hallelujah! God's manifold wisdom is incredible!
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