Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Mink57]

@Mink57

Is feminism's goal equal opportunities for men and women or equal outcomes/results?

Feminism seeks to achieve equal treatment and opportunity for women in order to achieve similar opportunities across different fields of work and culture and equal respect in a variety of roles.

The goal of feminism is to create equity, which is essential for leveling the playing field to ensure that no one's rights are violated due to factors such as race, gender, language, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, political or other beliefs, nationality, social origin, class, or wealth status.

Feminism doesn't seek the world domination of MEN, but it also doesn't want MEN to dominate, either.
It doesn't seek 'sameness'. While men and women are by FAR NOT the same, it does NOT mean that one sex is SUPERIOR to the other. A man's humanity is not more important than a woman's humanity, and her humanity is not more important than his. A man's work outside the home is not more important than her work inside the home.

The whole idea of a woman being left out of being able to vote was uncool because of how women were (and to some extent, still ARE) viewed. Do you agree with any of the following reasons WHY women were not allowed to vote?

1. The mental exertion of voting would cause infertility in women.
2. Women’s brains were inferior to men’s, and so women were incapable of participating in politics.
3. The majority of women didn’t want to vote.
4. Women would neglect their home and family, causing society to unravel.
5. Women were too good for the dirty nature of politics.
Argument: Eve ate the apple which made women unequal to men and, sorry, voting won’t change that
Argument: Women could cancel out their husbands’ votes
Argument: Voting won’t help women cook and clean, so what’s the point?
Argument: Voting will lead women away from love and children and toward loneliness and anxiety
Argument: Women can get whatever they want anyway
Argument: Pregnant women could get too excited when they vote, and that will turn their babies into ugly idiots
Argument: Women will abandon their husbands, cruelly leaving them alone with their own children, in order to vote
Argument: Women are sweet, weak and gentle and voting will make them hard and harsh like men
Argument: Women will vote to punish the men who have done nothing but give them everything they want

What SAY you, Wynona?

 

[Wynona]

I have a naturally agreeable nature at times. Often, I have found myself wishing I were less soft around people. Soft people are often seen as stupid and targets to be taken advantage of. Many friends have tried. Some succeeded.

But maybe it's not such a bad thing to be soft. I have strong views and I think it's important to be honest and direct rather than flatter or people-please. But just speaking in a gentle tone or showing kindness is not weakness.

1 Corinthians 6:7
King James Version
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

Choosing to suffer for someone else or choosing forbearance or the overlooking of an offense can be moral strength. The King James word for patience is long suffering. Love is patient. It suffers long.

Of course that is not living for fairness at all costs. If Jesus had lived that way, we'd be lost with no way back to the Father.

On the forum, I often overlook things out of apathy. I think I come off aloof at times. It's a bit forced, though. I actually do care about a lot of what goes on here. I just have a lot of doubt about my ability to make it better most of the time.

Embracing biblical femininity is healing. God wants His daughters to have meek and quiet spirits. Spirits that trust Him and His will, not insisting on our own way all the time.

The idea that I as a woman must be loud, draw all the attention, and be super tough to defend myself is the world's solution to people's cruelty. I understand it, but I'd rather be kind. It's a risky thing but most worthwhile things in life are.

 

[Wynona]

What SAY you, Wynona?

The suffrage movement did not represent the views of most women themselves at the time.

Most women were not involved because they saw voting and political involvement as a distraction from domestic influence and community involvement in the ways they enjoyed.

When I say I reject feminism, I do mean each of the four waves. The right to vote was historically tied to the obligation to be drafted for wartime. I don't want to kill people on the battlefield, nor do I think women can be on the front lines with zero negative consequences.

Before the suffrage movement, women still voted if they owned land at various times and places. But most women simply weren't interested in voting. They believed they could do more in their homes, and in their social circles volunteering, creating organizations for charity, and enriching their communities with local events. Women led full lives in their communities without voting.

The suffrage movement involved a vocal minority of women but hardly represented women on the whole.

Because women tend to vote left-leaning and in favor of abortion, I don't enshrine women voting as this sacred thing anymore. We get the country we deserve. Many of us admit we don't want to sign up for war to defend the country, so I don't see it as just or equal for us to vote but be able to opt out of drafting.

I would trade the right to vote for women and children being cherished and protected by the nation as a whole. Meaning, not being sent to war, and being in a society where men refuse to just take out their phones and film a woman being beaten in public.

By preaching female independence and the lie that gender is a social construct, men have lost incentive to help women when they truly need it. Chilvalry is dead because its considered demeaning by many feminists.

I don't need any part of feminism and that includes the suffrage movement. Good intentions, bad results once again.

 

[Wrangler]

I have a naturally agreeable nature at times. Often, I have found myself wishing I were less soft around people. Soft people are often seen as stupid and targets to be taken advantage of. Many friends have tried.

Those are so-called friends. Don't be less soft! That's something my pastor, who is now retired, used to lament; people feeling in our society that they have to harden their hearts. This is not the way.

I told my daughters and my wife to use me as the "bad guy" whenever anyone imposes on you. I do the same and this is also a tactic at work.

There were recently some high level negotiations with our biggest customer. In planning our strategy, the CEO asked the Sales Manager if he should attend the meeting. The Sales Manager said no for 2 reasons. First, his absence gives us time to evaluate the consequences of making certain concessions. Second, if the CEO is present and agrees to a concession, we have to where to go to reject the tentative agreed to proposal that is not good for us.

Some people pretend to be sick as a way out. The other day I watched a vid of a female scientist who was an atheist but became a Christian. When she met a Christian couple, who had their act together, they invited her to church. She smiled as she confessed she claimed she had a stomatch ache 6 weeks in a row before they got the hint that she was not interested in going. (I suspect she is naturally agreeable like you.)

While I have no problem saying "no," I find it tactful to say I need to defer to my spouse. Normally, the issue is dropped. If not, I can say that she has some family event planned for that time. In Japanese culture, saying no is not the way. They say, "perhaps another time." Some look at all this as lying. Grace and truth.

Hope this helps

 

[Wynona]

I told my daughters and my wife to use me as the "bad guy" whenever anyone imposes on you.

My husband does this for me. It's so great. He can just be bad cop. It's easy for him. I get to remain the soft one that way.

Independence is sooo wonderful till you realize you are facing all of life's issues by yourself and no one has to help you deal with it all. You're both the captain and the crew even in storms. It's a lot. Not just this fun liberation.

 

[Wynona]

If I had to come up with a reason for husbands and good men to be respected that wasn't strictly Scripture, I would say this:

For man to love and care for anyone other than himself almost always includes a degree of pain, risk, and danger.

To work to provide for a family will eventualy return him to the dust. To protect someone in danger could get him hurt or killed but he is often looked to to do it anyway. To defend the weak is often extremely risky. A good man is worthy of respect.

The more authority and power anyone of God's creations has, the more He holds them accountable and responsible for the welfare and just treatment of others. Men are held to a high standard. I don't fully understand but I try to consider it.

For me, as the woman, I can love fiercely but the risks associated are simply not as intense. People are gentler with me in society, in their tone, and in their expectations. Doors are still held open for me. I am still the protected one in society.

 

[Wynona]

I wanted to talk about some things submission in marriage taught me about influence and power.

In the beginning of our marriage, my submission see-sawed at times between passivity, which is not biblical submission, and just plain refusal to submit. However, I was definitely trying to avoid a third category I saw all around me: the contentious controlling wife. I'll talk about what all three look like.

Passivity

- Refusing to share important information, opinions, and feelings
- limp rag doll effect. "If I just act like I don't have a will of my own, submission should be easier!"
- Choosing to never address sin or unwise decisions to avoid conflict at all costs
- Fearing losing the relationship too much
- Idolizing the husband
- Willing to submit to requests that are clearly sinful and destructive

This is unbiblical. Although husbands are due reverence and should be a wife's first priority after God, God must be first. We ought not to not obey a husband in a way that clearly violates the Lord's commands. When our husbands sin, there are times we must lean on the Holy Spirit to address it. The Holy Spirit can give you the timing, tone, and words to help this conversation go well. Once you've established that you are on your husband's team consistently, he is often more open to counsel, which is vital for any leader.

Submissiveness is not going limp rag doll and giving up your voice and influence. It actively yields to rightful authority but uses it's capability for the husband's benefit. It's active, not passive. For example, it is actually helpful for a wife to

-be honest and direct about her wishes and desires but ultimately okay with husband's final decision (case in point: The Lord! What did he pray? Something like "Please let this cup (of wrath) pass from me. Nevertheless not my will but Yours. His submission to the Father was perfect and is our example)
-give wise counsel at appropriate times
-prayerfully address sin and unwise behavior

I'll Submit But Not In Any Way I Don't Feel Like

I asked my husband to lead the marriage when we were dating. However, if he lead in a way that went against my vision for our lives, I often refused. I refused to stop taking community college classes, for example. I prioritized what my parents wanted over what he wanted, assuming he wasn't as respectable as them. I considered him controlling and threatened by me. I assumed a lot of bad motives for him. I didn't entirely trust him and I used his lack of emotional maturity as proof that I didn't have to listen to him when it came to major life decisions.

I was very impatient. I thought he should lead a certain way. And of course, being a 19-year-old with zero experience in leadership, he often lead poorly in the beginning. I had zero patience for this. I was the more experienced Christian. He didn't seem very spiritual to me, and I often said as much.

My failure to understand Genesis 2:18 was a major issue. I thought of us like roommates. Our individual goals should be mutually supported in my book. But this often meant I demanded my husband support goals that took a lot of time and investment away from him. These goals didn't really benefit him, but I didn't care because I thought he should just support them regardless of how often they changed or how they didn't benefit him.

A wife is a helpmeet and companion to her husband. God put husbands at the head of the marriage. They follow the call from God and because he and his wife are one flesh, the wife submits herself to assist him in fulfilling that call. Husband and wife are not 50/50 business partners. They are one flesh. Submission on the wife's part prevents them from pulling in two different directions with competing interests. They have one calling together. This is why it is so important to prioritize choosing a man who fears the Lord.

Control And Emotional Manipulation

In my day, this is what I see the most often in the marriages and relationships around me. It's what's been normalized. Women/wives who

-lecture
-nag repeatedly
-belittle and insult
-have to have their way on issues big and small. "my way or else"
-cry, sulk, argue a lot, go silent, or withhold sex and affection when they don't get their way
-threaten divorce
-talk in an "angry momma" tone of voice
- bark orders
- have a lot to say about how he spends his time, food he eats, etc. not treating him like an adult
- try to tell outsiders about his faults to garner sympathy

These are all very disrespectful but I see this all the time. Both my husband and I come from parents where the mother played a dominant in the relationship. I had to figure a lot of what respect looked like through trial and error. I so often viewed the opposite around me and fell short. I had to lean on Scripture a lot and the example of the few Godly women still embracing submission who shared how they did it.

The best example is Jesus. He submitted to the Father in all things, yet was honest about His emotions, desires, and wishes.

Power and Influence

A lot of women adopt controlling and manipulative behaviors out of fear. They want to have power in the relationship to prevent bad things from happening or simply not having seen another way that works. But what I found in getting better at submission was that my influence and power in the relationship actually improved tremendously.

I didn't lose my voice.

I began to see power in conveying respect and being trusted because my husband began to copycat positive things I was doing without me having to say anything. If I started eating better and keeping myself up more, he began doing that too. This never happened when we were power struggling. The more I tried to argue and criticize my husband, the less interest he had in what I had to say. I started saying a bit less, leading by example (1 Peter 3) without words more, and simply praying through spiritual issues instead of trying to be his Holy Spirit.

Over time, my husband began to trust me. He wanted my advice on all kinds of decisions. He now delegates entire lifestyle decisions like which home we move to, to me, knowing I will do him good to the best of my ability. We are one flesh. His calling is also mine. He takes the brunt of it and I ease the burden. Together, we accomplish God's will as a married couple and now, a family.

Submission is not about being some oppressed doormat. When a man trusts you and cherishes you, he often responds to your trust and respect by leading in a way that directly benefits you. Just like Jesus and his bride: The Church. Does the Church do what Jesus says? Yes. Because the Church knows that He already gave His own life for her sake. My husband is called to do this daily and it's now a wonderful thing to behold.

 

[Wrangler]

In this humorous vid, the famous evangelist admits her refusal to submit to her husband even after realizing her ministry depended on it.

 

[Wrangler]

Passivity

- Refusing to share important information, opinions, and feelings
- limp rag doll effect.

Checking out is not the same as honoring, submitting and respecting.

I'll Submit But Not In Any Way I Don't Feel Like

I asked my husband to lead the marriage when we were dating. However, if he lead in a way that went against my vision for our lives, I often refused.

Conditional is not the way of the covenant. Respect and submission only matter when you disagree. Otherwise, you are not truly respecting the man's judgement but your own.

Control And Emotional Manipulation

In my day, this is what I see the most often in the marriages and relationships around me. It's what's been normalized. Women/wives who

-lecture
-nag repeatedly
-belittle and insult
-have to have their way on issues big and small. "my way or else"

My ex-wife used to assert I was controlling if she did not have control over every aspect of our lives. Extreme gas lighting.

Power and Influence

I began to see power in conveying respect and being trusted because my husband began to copycat positive things I was doing without me having to say anything

This is what feminists can never admit. The positive effect a woman can have on a man through and by respecting him. For the woman, it is all about love, denying men and women are not equal, denying for the man, it is all about respect.

When a woman let's the man know she is relying on him to carry the day, he grows into that leadership. By contrast, the battle of the sexes allow men a way out; "I told the woman what needs to be done. She ignored it. Now who is responsible?" Not him. When the man is not responsible no one is responsible.

Just last weekend, my wife claimed I did not talk her out of doing something. My reply? I have no such burden. It is you who went forward with doing something, knowing full well I was totally opposed to it. Not a submissive wife in the moment of truth. Result? Disaster for 7 years.

 

[Wynona]

Conditional is not the way of the covenant. Respect and submission only matter when you disagree. Otherwise, you are not truly respecting the man's judgement but your own.

Yes. In the end it came down to trust. I did not trust my husband or God fully. Failure to submit mostly comes from fear.

My respect for my husband grew as my respect for God and His Word grew. There is safety and blessing there.

 

[Wrangler]

This vid showcases solipsism. The feminist killed 2 boys and has filed a lawsuit against the boys parents due to emotional distress that SHE caused.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Checking out is not the same as honoring, submitting and respecting.


Conditional is not the way of the covenant. Respect and submission only matter when you disagree. Otherwise, you are not truly respecting the man's judgement but your own.



My ex-wife used to assert I was controlling if she did not have control over every aspect of our lives. Extreme gas lighting.


This is what feminists can never admit. The positive effect a woman can have on a man through and by respecting him. For the woman, it is all about love, denying men and women are not equal, denying for the man, it is all about respect.

When a woman let's the man know she is relying on him to carry the day, he grows into that leadership. By contrast, the battle of the sexes allow men a way out; "I told the woman what needs to be done. She ignored it. Now who is responsible?" Not him. When the man is not responsible no one is responsible.

Just last weekend, my wife claimed I did not talk her out of doing something. My reply? I have no such burden. It is you who went forward with doing something, knowing full well I was totally opposed to it. Not a submissive wife in the moment of truth. Result? Disaster for 7 years.

@Wrangler I’m curious. I’ve heard so many arguments and perspectives. I went to a thread on why people say God is sexist. This was a few of the responses:

first response: ‘Yahweh murdered Job's family. But it was okay, because he replaced them. Job got a beautiful new wife, and the most beautiful daughters in the entire world as replacements.
Whew, thank goodness they were beautiful. There for a minute, that seemed really malicious and sadistic. It's all okay now, though. Close one!’



Second response: ‘Just so we don’t get accused of misrepresentation, Job did NOT get a new wife, she survived everything (though to be fair, we don’t really see her again after she tells Job to curse God and die).
That being said, her plight is still an example of viewing women as lesser, as it does not matter how much trauma she endured to satisfy God’s bet, the only one that matters is Job, his wife being merely an extension of himself.
The kids though…yeah, they all got waxed and then replaced by shiny new kids.’

What response would you give to the above perspectives?

 

[Wrangler]

What response would you give to the above perspectives?

The target of Satan’s attack was Job. It would be odd, indeed, if divine gifts after proving HIS worthiness were explained from the POV of a distant cousin, neighbor or other distant female relative. Don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The target of Satan’s attack was Job. It would be odd, indeed, if divine gifts after proving HIS worthiness were explained from the POV of a distant cousin, neighbor or other distant female relative. Don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

What I hear them saying is wife and children are replaceable to God, where even though the first ones died God gave Job back more beautiful children.

 

[Wynona]

"But, you see, just when you think you will never get your way, something amazing often happens. You discover that your husband, especially a husband who has a heart for the Lord, was already intent on trying to please you and make you happy. Now that he is free to lead you as he believes is in your best for your family, he becomes comfortable saying "no," but he says it very infrequently. Your husband becomes the spouse you've always dreamed of having in the first place, and maybe he was there all along, but you couldn't get your desire for control out of his way long enough to discover how much he truly loves you"

From The Transformed Wife by Lori Alexander

 

[Wrangler]

"But, you see, just when you think you will never get your way, something amazing often happens. You discover that your husband, especially a husband who has a heart for the Lord, was already intent on trying to please you and make you happy. Now that he is free to lead you as he believes is in your best for your family, he becomes comfortable saying "no," but he says it very infrequently. Your husband becomes the spouse you've always dreamed of having in the first place, and maybe he was there all along, but you couldn't get your desire for control out of his way long enough to discover how much he truly loves you"

From The Transformed Wife by Lori Alexander

This is exactly right. It tends to be a clash between the emotionally driven short term sacrifice for the longer term benefit. See Hurried Women Syndrome.

 

[Wrangler]

What I hear them saying is wife and children are replaceable to God, where even though the first ones died God gave Job back more beautiful children.

That's because you are gynocentric. We are all his clay.

And I almost did not realize you did not answer my question.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That's because you are gynocentric. We are all his clay.

And I almost did not realize you did not answer my question.

So you are not androcentrism?

I Agree we are all his clay. Which to me … fits well with Jobs loss of wife, house and children where God restored and gave back better than the first.
Consider the clay was marred in the potters hands and He made a new vessel as it pleased Him to do so. A new Creature, where there is no more Jew or Greek, Bond or free, male or female

The target of Satan’s attack was Job. It would be odd, indeed, if divine gifts after proving HIS worthiness were explained from the POV of a distant cousin, neighbor or other distant female relative. Don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

I didn’t know the above was a question. I notice the question mark, but I struggled to understand where you were going with it. I don’t think the target attack of satan was Job but instead Christ. Satans attack being that there be no fruit reaching maturity = coming to steal, kill and destroy. But God’s deliverance was to bless Job with a more beautiful wife, more beautiful children, and a permanent house given from above and of God. The only way that makes “happy” to me is, the more beautiful wife is spoke of in Romans 7; the woman made free from sin unto death…the free woman (free) to marry another, even Him who rose from the dead. New Jerusalem being the more beautiful “house” built up in Christ, where God laid the foundation, the more beautiful children are those children born from above, the wife “of the Free Woman” the True proverbs 31 Woman who rises when it is yet still night (not a literal nighttime but a time of darkness cast over the world) to give meat, and clothing …to her household: you are no longer of the night but of the day, if so be you have been buried with Him in the likeness of His death, resurrected (to rise up) with Him in the likeness of His Life. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You are not of the darkness nor of night …but the darkness has passed, walk you now in the Light. Who rises when it is yet still night. If we turn it into a single female getting up at 1am to provide or get ready for her husband and household…while that may point to Him as circumcision of a man’s privates point to circumcision of the heart in Christ…I still think it misses the point that numbers 5 speaks of the adulterous woman whose children are in bondage and the free woman who bears children not in bondage. So does Romans 7. Job to me speaks of removal of the adulterous woman and the graciousness of God in the free Woman is better and more beautiful than the adulterous woman. so yes I can see God gave a more “shinny” “beautiful” New wife. As much as two women are two covenants…one had glory but in retrospect of that which excels in Glory, the first had no glory at all. To me this explains how they hate God, saying God killed (or allowed) Jobs first “wife” “children” to be killed, and then turned around to give “Job a better wife” than the first. Better children than the first.

that is why I asked what it means to you. To me it’s not about any distant cousin, neighbor, or other distant female relative …that repeatedly cursed God showing her unworthiness. the Bible speaks of Jerusalem(that now is) as a woman who cursed. It’s the adulterous woman who curses and in her is also men as Jesus told the Pharisees they were an adulterous woman, because she is not any literal single “Woman”…neither is “a brawling woman”.

One perspective, as in the quotes Where people say God is sexist …is based off God allowed Job to lose his wife, his children and home …they make it literal. Same as the majority of the church. That is the narrative of God allows the first to die but don’t worry God will restore and give you better.

But there is another narrative. Jesus spoke on loosing mother, father, brother, sister and even your own life for the sake of the Kingdom…the message is He gives (restores) back greater promises, speaks of better things…as with Job. I seriously don’t think it’s God waxing the first loved ones (wife, children, home) but His restoring all things. Paul speaks in Philemon of the servant that went away for a season, that he may return (no longer a servant) but above a servant, as a dearly beloved brother. The servant was destroyed, removed. The first. To me this speaks of Jobs first home, first wife, first children. But that same brother who was not profitable is now profitable in flesh and Spirit.
Philemon 1:11-16 Which in time past was to you unprofitable, but now profitable to you and to me: [12] Whom I have sent again: you therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels: [13] Whom I would have retained with me, that in
your stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel: [14] But without your mind would I do nothing; that you benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. [15] For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto you, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?
^is this what Jesus spoke of as receiving a better covenant: being free to bear fruit unto God? Health of body, mind and soul? For a servant remains not in the house forever, but a Son.

Don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

In case you feel I didn’t answer your question. Yes, I do think her repeated curing God showed her unworthiness but I think it’s the adulterous Woman spoken of here Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: (the good news) but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

If we tell people God took away a first wife (an adulterous woman) and gave a better woman and children …is literal. We do not see who is the adulterous woman is. It’s still denying the resurrection of Christ so that the Free woman bears and God replenishes, refreshes with New Children out from New Jerusalem which is from above and free. That can include my two daughters and five grandchildren(boys and girls) because it’s speaking of New Birth in Christ. <point is to me there is Hope that God isn’t going to take away my family which I s a mess. It’s hopeful for Him to say He can remove ”a servant” and make Sons which remain, giving (returning) even more beautiful and glorious in Christ children than the first.

 

[Wrangler]

So you are not androcentrism?

Why don’t you try answering my question?

Don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why don’t you try answering my question?

I did. Your question is: don’t you think her repeatedly cursing God showed her unworthiness?

Yes. She is the adulterous woman. Cursing is what she does. her way leads to death.