God's law, a law or the law: any difference?

[Arthur81]

Scripture shows that the law of God, God's law, existed prior to the giving of the law of Moses: murder-Gn 9:5-6; adultery-Gn 20:3; idolatry Gn 35:2-4 & theft-21:25; but then later the law of Moses, the Law, was given on a specific day and to a specific people Israel, and to NO other nation: Dt 4:8; See Lv 27:34. Abolishing the law of Moses in no way abolishes God's law, as seen illustrated in Genesis. Paul explained that the gentiles did not have the Law, the law of Moses, but had law, or a law -

"When gentiles, who do not possess the law, by nature do what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, as their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God through Christ Jesus judges the secret thoughts of all." Rom 2:14-16 NRSVue

The phrase I underlined indicates that all men are judged by law, gentiles as well as Jews. This seems to be indicated how ALL men are under law, some, as Jews, under "the law", some as the gentiles, under [a]law. This seems to be referenced in Rm 3:19-23 -

"And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, —for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God—"
Rom 3:19-23 YLT

The way the vs19-23, appears to declare ALL guilty, the gentiles under "law" or "a law" and the Jews who were under the law of Moses. In comparing the YLT, I can see more easily where the definite article exists in the Greek, or when it is added by the translators. This I believe can be influenced by the traditional theology that speaks of "civil, ceremonial and moral law", which I find nowhere in scripture. When I come to Paul's letter to the Galatians, who are gentiles; keeping in mind when the definite article is in the Greek and when it is added by the translators, becomes important to my understanding Paul in some respects. The first mention of law in Galatians in in v16 -

"...yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16 ASV)

That is the respected ASV, which 3 times has "the law", with the definite article, which one can see was added to the Greek by the translators, as can be seen comparing the NA28, or YLT -

"...having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' "
(Gal 2:16 YLT)

The first thing that came to my mind upon noticing this, is that "law" as all men are under, is the Mosaic law to the Jews, and the law written on the hearts of all men, even the gentiles. So, works is not restricted to merely the law of Moses, but any law required for salvation, imposed upon believers, such as baptism, or 7th day sabbath keeping. It also helps me understand another statement Paul makes later in this letter -

"And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor—to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we," (Gal 3:23-25 YLT)

I always wondered how the gentiles who did not have "the law", would have the "child-conductor"? It appears to me important in Paul's writings, when to notice the definite article to help determine when Paul is writing from his Jewish background and perspective, or when he is writing to include all, gentile a well was Jew. Yet, the nations all had religions with sacrifice, so was this caused by law written on their hearts driving them to see some sacrifice to appease their unknown god, requiring them to look outside of their own merit?

The use of the definite article in Paul as I understand it, may not be 100% consistent, but it appears to be a definite clue or hint to consider when interpreting a passage. Did the translator add "the", which reflected their theology, rather than a more closely held 'word for word' approach, or when adding "the" when translating into modern style English as in the NRSVue.

There are excellent students of scripture on this forum, so modify what I've written, clarify it, even outright endorse or contradict it. Have I gone astray? Please try to state on topic of the OP, not go meandering off on a tangent.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Scripture shows that the law of God, God's law, existed prior to the giving of the law of Moses: murder-Gn 9:5-6; adultery-Gn 20:3; idolatry Gn 35:2-4 & theft-21:25; but then later the law of Moses, the Law, was given on a specific day and to a specific people Israel, and to NO other nation: Dt 4:8; See Lv 27:34. Abolishing the law of Moses in no way abolishes God's law, as seen illustrated in Genesis. Paul explained that the gentiles did not have the Law, the law of Moses, but had law, or a law -

"When gentiles, who do not possess the law, by nature do what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, as their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God through Christ Jesus judges the secret thoughts of all." Rom 2:14-16 NRSVue

The phrase I underlined indicates that all men are judged by law, gentiles as well as Jews. This seems to be indicated how ALL men are under law, some, as Jews, under "the law", some as the gentiles, under [a]law. This seems to be referenced in Rm 3:19-23 -

"And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, —for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God—"
Rom 3:19-23 YLT

The way the vs19-23, appears to declare ALL guilty, the gentiles under "law" or "a law" and the Jews who were under the law of Moses. In comparing the YLT, I can see more easily where the definite article exists in the Greek, or when it is added by the translators. This I believe can be influenced by the traditional theology that speaks of "civil, ceremonial and moral law", which I find nowhere in scripture. When I come to Paul's letter to the Galatians, who are gentiles; keeping in mind when the definite article is in the Greek and when it is added by the translators, becomes important to my understanding Paul in some respects. The first mention of law in Galatians in in v16 -

"...yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16 ASV)

That is the respected ASV, which 3 times has "the law", with the definite article, which one can see was added to the Greek by the translators, as can be seen comparing the NA28, or YLT -

"...having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' "
(Gal 2:16 YLT)

The first thing that came to my mind upon noticing this, is that "law" as all men are under, is the Mosaic law to the Jews, and the law written on the hearts of all men, even the gentiles. So, works is not restricted to merely the law of Moses, but any law required for salvation, imposed upon believers, such as baptism, or 7th day sabbath keeping. It also helps me understand another statement Paul makes later in this letter -

"And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor—to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we," (Gal 3:23-25 YLT)

I always wondered how the gentiles who did not have "the law", would have the "child-conductor"? It appears to me important in Paul's writings, when to notice the definite article to help determine when Paul is writing from his Jewish background and perspective, or when he is writing to include all, gentile a well was Jew. Yet, the nations all had religions with sacrifice, so was this caused by law written on their hearts driving them to see some sacrifice to appease their unknown god, requiring them to look outside of their own merit?

The use of the definite article in Paul as I understand it, may not be 100% consistent, but it appears to be a definite clue or hint to consider when interpreting a passage. Did the translator add "the", which reflected their theology, rather than a more closely held 'word for word' approach, or when adding "the" when translating into modern style English as in the NRSVue.

There are excellent students of scripture on this forum, so modify what I've written, clarify it, even outright endorse or contradict it. Have I gone astray? Please try to state on topic of the OP, not go meandering off on a tangent.

Well, Specifically in Galatians, Paul was speaking of the Mosaic Law,(which is the 613 laws and the ten in stone which were common to mankind). But all the law was fulfilled and rendered moot by our trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sin debt.

This is the new law by which we live:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law and law would given to show man is condemned and to lead mankind to Jesus.

 

[Arthur81]

Well, Specifically in Galatians, Paul was speaking of the Mosaic Law,(which is the 613 laws and the ten in stone which were common to mankind). But all the law was fulfilled and rendered moot by our trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sin debt.

This is the new law by which we live:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law and law would given to show man is condemned and to lead mankind to Jesus.

The Galatians were of the nations, gentiles. The gentiles were not given the Mosaic Law, so why is Paul constantly talking to people about the 613 laws, the law of Moses which they were not given?

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your post and questions regarding Romans 2:14-16 and the Apostle Paul’s reference to the ”law.”

To understand this passage (which, by the way, can be said of many of the world’s indigenous peoples) it helps to remember that Jesus told us that (regarding the two great commandments) “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22: 37-40.

Since the gentiles were pagan, it follows that Paul meant that they practiced Love Thy Neighbor. This deduction is verified by Acts 28:1-7. Recall—Paul and fellow prisoners crashed on Malta. The islanders showed them unusual kindness. When a venomous snake bite didn‘t hurt Paul, the islanders said he must be a god (hence, they were pagans). Finally, they were given generous hospitality for three days.

In Matthew 25: 35-36, Jesus tells us how to care for the poor, but also what the best hospitality looks like—food, drink, shelter, clothing, health care (echoing the Good Samaritan).

Clearly, at least some of the gentiles Paul encountered practiced Love Thy Neighbor.

Question: How did this come about if all of us (gentiles, too) are intrinsically fallen? It can only be when people are taught to love their neighbors from childhood, will they have any chance of continuing as adults.

Well: if we are all descended from Noah’s family, and they believed in and practiced the great commandments, perhaps some of the tribes held onto and inculcated Love Thy Neighbor, although it is puzzling that they became pagan.

Criticisms and alternatives are welcome.

Blessings.

 

[face2face]

@Arthur81

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Galatians 3:19

Have you looked at the word "added"

F2F

 

[face2face]

Scripture shows that the law of God, God's law, existed prior to the giving of the law of Moses: murder-Gn 9:5-6; adultery-Gn 20:3; idolatry Gn 35:2-4 & theft-21:25; but then later the law of Moses, the Law, was given on a specific day and to a specific people Israel, and to NO other nation: Dt 4:8; See Lv 27:34. Abolishing the law of Moses in no way abolishes God's law, as seen illustrated in Genesis. Paul explained that the gentiles did not have the Law, the law of Moses, but had law, or a law -

"When gentiles, who do not possess the law, by nature do what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, as their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God through Christ Jesus judges the secret thoughts of all." Rom 2:14-16 NRSVue

The phrase I underlined indicates that all men are judged by law, gentiles as well as Jews. This seems to be indicated how ALL men are under law, some, as Jews, under "the law", some as the gentiles, under [a]law. This seems to be referenced in Rm 3:19-23 -

"And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, —for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God—"
Rom 3:19-23 YLT

The way the vs19-23, appears to declare ALL guilty, the gentiles under "law" or "a law" and the Jews who were under the law of Moses. In comparing the YLT, I can see more easily where the definite article exists in the Greek, or when it is added by the translators. This I believe can be influenced by the traditional theology that speaks of "civil, ceremonial and moral law", which I find nowhere in scripture. When I come to Paul's letter to the Galatians, who are gentiles; keeping in mind when the definite article is in the Greek and when it is added by the translators, becomes important to my understanding Paul in some respects. The first mention of law in Galatians in in v16 -

"...yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16 ASV)

That is the respected ASV, which 3 times has "the law", with the definite article, which one can see was added to the Greek by the translators, as can be seen comparing the NA28, or YLT -

"...having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' "
(Gal 2:16 YLT)

The first thing that came to my mind upon noticing this, is that "law" as all men are under, is the Mosaic law to the Jews, and the law written on the hearts of all men, even the gentiles. So, works is not restricted to merely the law of Moses, but any law required for salvation, imposed upon believers, such as baptism, or 7th day sabbath keeping. It also helps me understand another statement Paul makes later in this letter -

"And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor—to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we," (Gal 3:23-25 YLT)

I always wondered how the gentiles who did not have "the law", would have the "child-conductor"? It appears to me important in Paul's writings, when to notice the definite article to help determine when Paul is writing from his Jewish background and perspective, or when he is writing to include all, gentile a well was Jew. Yet, the nations all had religions with sacrifice, so was this caused by law written on their hearts driving them to see some sacrifice to appease their unknown god, requiring them to look outside of their own merit?

The use of the definite article in Paul as I understand it, may not be 100% consistent, but it appears to be a definite clue or hint to consider when interpreting a passage. Did the translator add "the", which reflected their theology, rather than a more closely held 'word for word' approach, or when adding "the" when translating into modern style English as in the NRSVue.

There are excellent students of scripture on this forum, so modify what I've written, clarify it, even outright endorse or contradict it. Have I gone astray? Please try to state on topic of the OP, not go meandering off on a tangent.

Jesus was judged by the same Law and because it condemned an innocent man, God was righteous to remove it.

Galatians 3:13

F2F

Note: this is another proof that Jesus cannot be God as God cannot be cursed!

 

[Grailhunter]

Scripture shows that the law of God, God's law, existed prior to the giving of the law of Moses: murder-Gn 9:5-6; adultery-Gn 20:3; idolatry Gn 35:2-4 & theft-21:25; but then later the law of Moses, the Law, was given on a specific day and to a specific people Israel, and to NO other nation: Dt 4:8; See Lv 27:34. Abolishing the law of Moses in no way abolishes God's law, as seen illustrated in Genesis. Paul explained that the gentiles did not have the Law, the law of Moses, but had law, or a law -

"When gentiles, who do not possess the law, by nature do what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, as their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God through Christ Jesus judges the secret thoughts of all." Rom 2:14-16 NRSVue

The phrase I underlined indicates that all men are judged by law, gentiles as well as Jews. This seems to be indicated how ALL men are under law, some, as Jews, under "the law", some as the gentiles, under [a]law. This seems to be referenced in Rm 3:19-23 -

"And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, —for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God—"
Rom 3:19-23 YLT

The way the vs19-23, appears to declare ALL guilty, the gentiles under "law" or "a law" and the Jews who were under the law of Moses. In comparing the YLT, I can see more easily where the definite article exists in the Greek, or when it is added by the translators. This I believe can be influenced by the traditional theology that speaks of "civil, ceremonial and moral law", which I find nowhere in scripture. When I come to Paul's letter to the Galatians, who are gentiles; keeping in mind when the definite article is in the Greek and when it is added by the translators, becomes important to my understanding Paul in some respects. The first mention of law in Galatians in in v16 -

"...yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16 ASV)

That is the respected ASV, which 3 times has "the law", with the definite article, which one can see was added to the Greek by the translators, as can be seen comparing the NA28, or YLT -

"...having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' "
(Gal 2:16 YLT)

The first thing that came to my mind upon noticing this, is that "law" as all men are under, is the Mosaic law to the Jews, and the law written on the hearts of all men, even the gentiles. So, works is not restricted to merely the law of Moses, but any law required for salvation, imposed upon believers, such as baptism, or 7th day sabbath keeping. It also helps me understand another statement Paul makes later in this letter -

"And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor—to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we," (Gal 3:23-25 YLT)

I always wondered how the gentiles who did not have "the law", would have the "child-conductor"? It appears to me important in Paul's writings, when to notice the definite article to help determine when Paul is writing from his Jewish background and perspective, or when he is writing to include all, gentile a well was Jew. Yet, the nations all had religions with sacrifice, so was this caused by law written on their hearts driving them to see some sacrifice to appease their unknown god, requiring them to look outside of their own merit?

The use of the definite article in Paul as I understand it, may not be 100% consistent, but it appears to be a definite clue or hint to consider when interpreting a passage. Did the translator add "the", which reflected their theology, rather than a more closely held 'word for word' approach, or when adding "the" when translating into modern style English as in the NRSVue.

There are excellent students of scripture on this forum, so modify what I've written, clarify it, even outright endorse or contradict it. Have I gone astray? Please try to state on topic of the OP, not go meandering off on a tangent.

The word Law is used in different ways in the Bible but the easy way to keep it straight is that the concept of “Law” only pertains to the Old Testament…only…and does not pertain to Christians…Period.

The Way was about away of thinking and action. The Mosaic Law, 613 of them failed because man could not keep them as a whole. If you failed one you failed them all and you were out with no reprieve.. Sacrifices were to appease the wrath of God. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 The Law failed because it was so difficult to keep them and even though there were 613 of them, you would need millions to cover every situation. But that does not mean the Law was done away with or changed, they still pertain to the Jews.

The teaching of Christ and the Apostles were about away of thinking. Do all things in love. Love God and one another. There are specifics that explain the details, but they are not unforgivable Laws.

 

[Arthur81]

Do we do diligence to the question, does the definite article "the" in the Greek, or the absence of the definite article in the Greek tell us something, guide us in important ways. Isn't the decision of translators on whether the definite article should be added to the Greek, largely a matter of theological presuppositions as well as rules of grammar and linguistics? When reading Galatians, the fact that the Mosaic Law has been abolished for justification, that does not mean that NT laws can be put in their place for justification? Circumcision is pointedly discussed, that does not mean other laws can be put into force upon New Covenant believers. Too often I've heard the evasion, 'Oh, but Paul is talking about circumcision not other points of law.'

I find this important because I believe Christ clearly abolished the ENTIRE law of Moses, as well as the God-given law in the hearts of the gentiles, as a means of righteousness. Even as a rule of life under the law of Christ, it is not a manner of achieving righteous standing before God. God's law applies to all men in all times! But in Christ, we're under the gospel, justification by free grace, not the law, even to our conscience. Does the true regenerate child of God need the laws of God, literally emboldened before their eyes and in their minds to know how to live? Do we feel guilt when we sin, absolutely we do, but it does not break the fact of our justification in Christ!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Galatians were of the nations, gentiles. The gentiles were not given the Mosaic Law, so why is Paul constantly talking to people about the 613 laws, the law of Moses which they were not given?

Because of the Judaizers coming to all the towns following Paul and telling the Gentiles they had to be circumsized and follow the Mosaic Law

 

[Arthur81]

Because of the Judaizers coming to all the towns following Paul and telling the Gentiles they had to be circumsized and follow the Mosaic Law

Ronald, your reply is spot on. I admit, I must have gotten Kamala Harris 'word salad' disease. I think what troubles me, is Paul is speaking of the law being a school master, guiding to the Messiah, and exposing the depth of sin. Jesus in Matthew 5 appears to reprimand those who turn the law into the strict letter of the law and adding to it and missing the deceitfulness of sin exposed in the commandments. I try to put myself in the pew of a gentile and here the apostle Paul speaks of the law from his Jewish perspective, I am wondering, did I as a gentile comprehend how that applies to me? He is talking about Jews and their law of Moses. If I am careful about the use of the definite article in the Greek, along with Paul's speaking of Mosaic law, God's law written on a gentile's is the same Rom. 2:14ff.

Now I read and have studied the textbooks and commentaries of the Reformed and owe my approach to theology to those men of God. Since they see the Ten Commandments as still in force today, it sounds as if they are applying this law to the gentiles. I am a New Covenant believer, accepting the verses that clearly say the law was abolished, nailed to the cross. Not just civil and ceremonial but also the Ten Words they consider the "moral law". I just see no basis whatsoever in the contexts to cut up the law of Moses and say Jesus abolished two of the three parts of Mosaic Law, but did not abolish the remaining third. I surely am not wishing to pick a fight with my Reformed brethren over this, but this has troubled me. While I did leave dispensationalism, that is one thing I agree on, the entire law of Moses was abolished, not just a part. I hold to New Covenant theology. I've gotten my education from R. L. Dabney, A. A. Hodge & his father Charles, the Baptists James P. Boyce's theology textbook, Matthew Poole and John Gill. Even though Adam Clarke was a Methodist, I get knowledge on some things from him. I did not post this OP to start an argument with my brethren. I am concerned about how decisions are made on when to include the definite article 'the'. Along with this, I've come to question the placement of commas in some texts that can surely affect understanding of doctrines. When we read the NT, we are reading from Greek that was not divided into chapters and verses as we have. There were no commas, semi-colons, colons, etc. While we know excellent scholars translate into our English of today, if these items are not in the Greek, how much does theology influence the translators as they construct our English? Don't we have to keep such things in mind and consider that when we study God's word? I'll give an example using the placement of a comma, where it can change the meaning.

"Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1-2 YLT)

"Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God."
Rom 5:1-2 NRSV

Do we have peace toward God, by faith having already been justified at the cross; or, do we have justification by faith and then peace with God following?

I do not mean to start the question of when we are justified, but showing how placement of a comma can have a bearing on the topic. I do not know if it is proper, but I apologize for the frequent 'word salad' in my posts of late. I'm dealing with a condition where I must be on the drug Lyrica and it is causing many side effects, one of which problems in organized thought, remembering words, etc. I may be delayed in replies, and maybe never.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do we have peace toward God, by faith having already been justified at the cross; or, do we have justification by faith and then peace with God following?

That is like which came first, the chicken or the egg? As we were chosen before the foundation of the world we were at peace with god and considered justified. All it took was the proper time for us to accept what god had declared for us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, your reply is spot on. I admit, I must have gotten Kamala Harris 'word salad' disease. I think what troubles me, is Paul is speaking of the law being a school master, guiding to the Messiah, and exposing the depth of sin. Jesus in Matthew 5 appears to reprimand those who turn the law into the strict letter of the law and adding to it and missing the deceitfulness of sin exposed in the commandments. I try to put myself in the pew of a gentile and here the apostle Paul speaks of the law from his Jewish perspective, I am wondering, did I as a gentile comprehend how that applies to me? He is talking about Jews and their law of Moses. If I am careful about the use of the definite article in the Greek, along with Paul's speaking of Mosaic law, God's law written on a gentile's is the same Rom. 2:14ff.

Well we have to look at Pauls declarations under two very important facts.

The law was given to Israel as a school master (it teaches and defines a person as a sinner).

To the Gentiles:

Ephesians 2:11-13

King James Version

​

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Now in my opinion , I believe that those who try to adopt the law to attain righteousness with grace, God still uses the law to show them the impossibility of works righteousness to drive them to Grace alone.

I am concerned about how decisions are made on when to include the definite article 'the'. Along with this, I've come to question the placement of commas in some texts that can surely affect understanding of doctrines. When we read the NT, we are reading from Greek that was not divided into chapters and verses as we have. There were no commas, semi-colons, colons, etc. While we know excellent scholars translate into our English of today, if these items are not in the Greek, how much does theology influence the translators as they construct our English? Don't we have to keep such things in mind and consider that when we study God's word? I'll give an example using the placement of a comma, where it can change the meaning.

Well sometimes "the" is a construct in the noun and thus is placed in English, other times it is added to make the English read better. How right and wrong it is, I do not worry. It is true there are no caps punctuation and chapters in the originals. Adding these do not harm the word of god and I trust that in the better translations God did guide the translators to make the best sense in English from the originals. But we must remember they are but translations and while we may lose impact I have seen over 50 years that doctrine has not suffered at all from the hands of the translators of many English translations.