Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[Aunty Jane]

My request was for you to tell me OF Jehovah ie, an introduction into his character.

If we want to know who Jehovah is, all we need to do is read about Jesus, who was the exact representation of his Father in mortal flesh. He ‘showed us the Father’….in all he said and did….a real life demonstration of who Jehovah is, was, and always will be.

Commands or threats do not elicit attraction, they generate obligation. Attraction is also not generated by talking about yourself particularly when the request was to know (which you claim) OF Jehovah.

Like it or not….God created mankind with commands….the first one carried the death penalty if not obeyed.
How terrible of God to do such a thing! But once you realize WHY he did that you will see how loving it was ….he did not set a trap for humans, but tried to use a penalty that would strongly deter the wrong use of freewill.

Is it God’s aim to be “attractive”?…..or is it more important to “respect” his authority, should we ever behave in a way that he disapproves of? Free will was never meant to be abused….but it was never truly “free” because God gave the humans limits to their freedom. Were they going to chafe because of those restrictions? The original restriction caused them no hardship whatsoever. None of God’s laws do….

But in our sinful condition, his laws are harder to keep. Israel was given a demonstration of that because even though God’s laws were reasonable, the sin in man kept leading them off to satisfy the desires of the flesh. It was a continual fight within one’s self to remain blameless.

I know Jehovah to have his qualities in perfect balance….his love and justice for example, are perfectly balanced and not affected by sentiment, which humans find hard to deal with. When he says a certain penalty applies and he carries it out, some humans feel he is heartless. But his justice is perfect and can be tempered with “mercy” (where that is warranted by circumstance) but it is never tempered by “sentiment”. We need to understand the difference. His “yes” means “yes”…but his “no” means “no” as well. “No” doesn’t mean maybe.

We also need to understand the temporary nature of the the world we have been forced to live in…and why God subjected us to this life. Compared to eternity, our short lifetime is a blink of God’s eye. And no matter what humans do in this life, (in this world over which satan has been given rulership, 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7) from God’s standpoint, what is accomplished will put both humans and angels in a better position to enjoy the life that is to come, safe in the knowledge that because of this object lesson that we have all been subjected to, no rebel will ever disrupt God’s purpose again.

Here is an example; I said to the girl I was going out with, please marry me; if you do you will have a wonderful life with all the trappings; if you refuse, I'm sorry but I'll have to blow your brains out.

What a ridiculous comparison! It shows how little you know Jehovah yourself….

God has given all his children, both in heaven and on earth, the precious gift of free will, but the potential for abuse was always there, yet God had contingency plans right from the beginning for all eventualities. Whatever the humans or angels chose to do, he would respond accordingly. God “acted” only once and that was in creation….from then on, he only “reacted” to their choices. Otherwise free will was only an illusion.
He did not want robots who could not make informed choices…he wanted his children to chose to obey him out of love….NOT out of fear. The “fear” came from the fact that they did not want to disappoint him by their conduct.…that is true love.

What were the options open to free willed beings, made in God’s image?

1) The devil could have cancelled his plans to gain worship for himself, having thought through the repercussions, and knowing that it was not worth the challenge.

2) The woman knew God’s law and she should have consulted her husband before believing the words of a serpent, and consuming the fruit that she knew God had forbidden….the devil gave her a convincing argument, but she did not have to believe him. Her husband and head may well have put her thinking back on track. But the devil cleverly did not target Adam….he targetted the woman to get to the man, knowing that he was besotted with his new mate.

3) Adam could have made a different decision and reprimanded the woman for her error, knowing that the death penalty still applied, but that he would not be disloyal to his Creator, even though it meant losing her. He was forced to make a choice that would either save the human race….or condemn them to the same fate as they now faced……sin, with its resulting sickness, pain, suffering and death. Divided loyalties are a tough test.

4) Well, we know what the 4th option resulted in….the devil gained a victory that he did not deserve and God then implemented his own contingency plan for this eventuality….he used it as the most important object lesson that humans and angels would ever face….but with the end result being the elimination of any free willed creature who could derail God’s purpose and lead others into disfavor with him. We all got first hand experience of the consequences of abusing that gift. Would we ever want to repeat it?

The peace and harmony that God wanted in his creation could only be achieved with full cooperation of all who would enjoy life, as the gift it was meant to be.

Do you understand this example in the light of the purpose of this exchange?

Not for a moment…this is faulty and selfish thinking at its best…you would dictate to God the terms of existence that he himself placed on his own creation…..you cannot change it because you see it through a faulty lens…..sorry.

God’s will is entirely his, and as Universal Sovereign, he has the right to dictate the terms he places on life continuing forever in both realms. No other party has a right to question his motives or his actions or to dismiss what his word clearly states, in order to make God “appealing” or “attractive”.

What he offers is on a “take it or leave it“ basis…..I will do whatever my God asks of me, not because I am afraid of him, but because I love him, and understand all that he has done, and will do in the future…..who would not want what he is offering?…..and all he asks in return is our unquestioning obedience based on knowing his character and seeing the example and teachings left for us by his son.

You cannot make God into your own version of him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As you know this subject of fallen angels is a raw nerve and it causes people no end of confusion when they hold such error in their hearts. Aunty Jane is often spruiking this error and not one person can show a single verse in the Bible that states this being imitated a serpent in the Garden. I've asked many times and while they try they no they come up short every time.

Despite you being shown multiple times that the devil is real and even tempted the son of God in his futile attempt to derail his mission, you still refuse to believe he exists. Jesus had no sin nature to overcome in his humanity, so the temptation was from an external source. He is identified as the devil as that source, and in the Revelation he is described as “the original serpent”.….so your beliefs fight with Scripture and seek to misinterpret them to suit what you want to believe. You are free to do that and God will not interfere with our free willed decisions. Only at the end will it be revealed who was misled and who was teaching the truth.

Now, since spirit beings mentioned in the Bible, had the power to materialize at will, what was to stop this wicked angel from assuming that disguise? After all he can also disguise himself as “an angel of light” and feed his lies to those who think he doesn’t exist.

He can impersonate the true God and give people false doctrines…..he can even pretend to be Jesus, giving humans the power to heal the sick, and make miracles happen.
Who is going to question an enemy who appears to be a friend?….isn’t that the ultimate deception?

I just hate seeing people deceived.

Me too.

Irritates me no end!

it’s not an irritation…it’s a profound sadness because they have no idea how blind they are, and who blinded them. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[face2face]

With me there is no yes or no and I will answer when I want, not under interrogation.

2 Corinthians 11:14 – "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

This verse indicates that Satan has the ability to disguise himself, specifically as an angel of light, which might suggest that he can take on other deceptive forms as well, though it does not mention him pretending to be a serpent.

Isaiah 14:12-15 – The fall of Lucifer, often associated with Satan, is depicted as the fall of a "shining one" or a being of light and exaltation. While this text doesn't mention a serpent, it has been linked with Satan's rebellious nature, which could be symbolized through various forms, including the serpent in Genesis.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 – This passage speaks of a being, often interpreted as Satan, described as the "anointed cherub" who was in Eden and fell from perfection. It describes this being as having been "full of wisdom and perfect in beauty," again without mentioning a serpent, but the description of the being in Eden is sometimes associated with the serpent of Genesis 3.

These verses, when read together, allow for an interpretation that Satan, in his rebellion, may have taken the form of a serpent to deceive Eve, though they do not explicitly say that he "pretended" to be a serpent.

The Bible tends to emphasize the serpent’s role in Genesis 3 as a literal creature that Satan used rather than delving into the idea of a "fiery" being in disguise. The imagery of Satan as a shining or fiery being comes from later theological interpretation rather than from a single biblical verse.


J.

Again, do you think these three quotes are speaking to the same circumstance & context.

I'm not going to expound the meaning of each of these in their context if you have doubts with what you have posted.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Despite you being shown multiple times that the devil is real and even tempted the son of God in his futile attempt to derail his mission, you still refuse to believe he exists. Jesus had no sin nature to overcome in his humanity, so the temptation was from an external source. He is identified as the devil as that source, and in the Revelation he is described as “the original serpent”.….so your beliefs fight with Scripture and seek to misinterpret them to suit what you want to believe. You are free to do that and God will not interfere with our free willed decisions. Only at the end will it be revealed who was misled and who was teaching the truth.

Johann is attempting to prove what you are unable to do.

Show one verse that supports your understanding of this deception in Eden.

Just one.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

If we want to know who Jehovah is, all we need to do is read about Jesus, who was the exact representation of his Father in mortal flesh. He ‘showed us the Father’….in all he said and did….a real life demonstration of who Jehovah is, was, and always will be.

Like it or not….God created mankind with commands….the first one carried the death penalty if not obeyed.
How terrible of God to do such a thing! But once you realize WHY he did that you will see how loving it was ….he did not set a trap for humans, but tried to use a penalty that would strongly deter the wrong use of freewill.

Is it God’s aim to be “attractive”?…..or is it more important to “respect” his authority, should we ever behave in a way that he disapproves of? Free will was never meant to be abused….but it was never truly “free” because God gave the humans limits to their freedom. Were they going to chafe because of those restrictions? The original restriction caused them no hardship whatsoever. None of God’s laws do….

But in our sinful condition, his laws are harder to keep. Israel was given a demonstration of that because even though God’s laws were reasonable, the sin in man kept leading them off to satisfy the desires of the flesh. It was a continual fight within one’s self to remain blameless.

I know Jehovah to have his qualities in perfect balance….his love and justice for example, are perfectly balanced and not affected by sentiment, which humans find hard to deal with. When he says a certain penalty applies and he carries it out, some humans feel he is heartless. But his justice is perfect and can be tempered with “mercy” (where that is warranted by circumstance) but it is never tempered by “sentiment”. We need to understand the difference. His “yes” means “yes”…but his “no” means “no” as well. “No” doesn’t mean maybe.

We also need to understand the temporary nature of the the world we have been forced to live in…and why God subjected us to this life. Compared to eternity, our short lifetime is a blink of God’s eye. And no matter what humans do in this life, (in this world over which satan has been given rulership, 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7) from God’s standpoint, what is accomplished will put both humans and angels in a better position to enjoy the life that is to come, safe in the knowledge that because of this object lesson that we have all been subjected to, no rebel will ever disrupt God’s purpose again.

What a ridiculous comparison! It shows how little you know Jehovah yourself….

God has given all his children, both in heaven and on earth, the precious gift of free will, but the potential for abuse was always there, yet God had contingency plans right from the beginning for all eventualities. Whatever the humans or angels chose to do, he would respond accordingly. God “acted” only once and that was in creation….from then on, he only “reacted” to their choices. Otherwise free will was only an illusion.
He did not want robots who could not make informed choices…he wanted his children to chose to obey him out of love….NOT out of fear. The “fear” came from the fact that they did not want to disappoint him by their conduct.…that is true love.

What were the options open to free willed beings, made in God’s image?

1) The devil could have cancelled his plans to gain worship for himself, having thought through the repercussions, and knowing that it was not worth the challenge.

2) The woman knew God’s law and she should have consulted her husband before believing the words of a serpent, and consuming the fruit that she knew God had forbidden….the devil gave her a convincing argument, but she did not have to believe him. Her husband and head may well have put her thinking back on track. But the devil cleverly did not target Adam….he targetted the woman to get to the man, knowing that he was besotted with his new mate.

3) Adam could have made a different decision and reprimanded the woman for her error, knowing that the death penalty still applied, but that he would not be disloyal to his Creator, even though it meant losing her. He was forced to make a choice that would either save the human race….or condemn them to the same fate as they now faced……sin, with its resulting sickness, pain, suffering and death. Divided loyalties are a tough test.

4) Well, we know what the 4th option resulted in….the devil gained a victory that he did not deserve and God then implemented his own contingency plan for this eventuality….he used it as the most important object lesson that humans and angels would ever face….but with the end result being the elimination of any free willed creature who could derail God’s purpose and lead others into disfavor with him. We all got first hand experience of the consequences of abusing that gift. Would we ever want to repeat it?

The peace and harmony that God wanted in his creation could only be achieved with full cooperation of all who would enjoy life, as the gift it was meant to be.

Not for a moment…this is faulty and selfish thinking at its best…you would dictate to God the terms of existence that he himself placed on his own creation…..you cannot change it because you see it through a faulty lens…..sorry.

God’s will is entirely his, and as Universal Sovereign, he has the right to dictate the terms he places on life continuing forever in both realms. No other party has a right to question his motives or his actions or to dismiss what his word clearly states, in order to make God “appealing” or “attractive”.

What he offers is on a “take it or leave it“ basis…..I will do whatever my God asks of me, not because I am afraid of him, but because I love him, and understand all that he has done, and will do in the future…..who would not want what he is offering?…..and all he asks in return is our unquestioning obedience based on knowing his character and seeing the example and teachings left for us by his son.

You cannot make God into your own version of him.

God is the greatest lover in the Multiverse. Love means being vulnerable and Jesus manifests this vulnerability. His wooing never ends....even to the point of death. He never says marry me or I'll blow your brains out ie, he never says take it or leave it.
Are we able grasp the breathtaking scope of this or is hiding behind words and justifications like the Priests who passed on the other side of the road of the robbed, bruised and battered fellow citizen.....because it was convenient, because he didn't want to be defiled?

Our understanding or lack of it of this gob smacking Grace is reflected in our personal realities ie, what we talk of, our objectives and of course how we behave towards other beings who are equal recipients of God's kindness.

 

[face2face]

With me there is no yes or no and I will answer when I want, not under interrogation.

2 Corinthians 11:14 – "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

J.

Who is the adversary in view J.?

1. A fictitious fallen angel
2. Or a person/s who is pretending to be something they are not?

From Corinthians, can you prove point 1?

Here is my evidence for point 2!

The Satan (adversary) of this passage is not a rebel angel but rebel Jewish adversaries who were undermining the apostle Paul's influence in the Corinthian church (Look up 2 Cor. 10:2, 10-18; 11:3-26).

I will wait for your evidence for point 1 from Paul's letter

F2F

 

[face2face]

God is the greatest lover in the Multiverse. Love means being vulnerable and Jesus manifests this vulnerability. His wooing never ends....even to the point of death. He never says marry me or I'll blow your brains out ie, he never says take it or leave it.
Are we able grasp the breathtaking scope of this or is hiding behind words and justifications like the Priests who passed on the other side of the road of the robbed, bruised and battered fellow citizen.....because it was convenient, because he didn't want to be defiled?

Our understanding or lack of it of this gob smacking Grace is reflected in our personal realities ie, what we talk of, our objectives and of course how we behave towards other beings who are equal recipients of God's kindness.

This sounds lovely quiet but there are certain realities about the Lord which you have not considered.

“I tell you the truth, no prophet is acceptable in his hometown" Lk 4:24.

Some towns, he passed by, not because of a lack of love on his part, but the people could not receive him.

Maybe you would judge him harsh? unloving?

What about stepping over the disabled and infirm to heal one man? John 9:7?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Despite you being shown multiple times that the devil is real and even tempted the son of God in his futile attempt to derail his mission, you still refuse to believe he exists.

Three possible interpretations for Matthew 4

1. A fallen Angel
2. The High Priest (or representative)
3. Jesus' own mind

Points 2&3 have a lot more Scriptural support than point 1.

Jesus had no sin nature to overcome in his humanity, so the temptation was from an external source.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:14–17.

Read it Jane, study it and come to this fundamental truth!

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

Where did God condemn sin Jane?

There are so many quotes your head would spin...

He is identified as the devil as that source, and in the Revelation he is described as “the original serpent”.….so your beliefs fight with Scripture and seek to misinterpret them to suit what you want to believe.

Revelation 12 is symbolic - you don't understand the symbol of the adversary and false accuser being alluded to. Further more you don't want to know.

Also, Rev 12 is not an origin story for your fallen angel Jane - its not speaking to your story of imitation in the Garden!

When will you show some honesty on this?

Now, since spirit beings mentioned in the Bible, had the power to materialize at will, what was to stop this wicked angel from assuming that disguise? After all he can also disguise himself as “an angel of light” and feed his lies to those who think he doesn’t exist.

Who was the angel of light? Again, you have no origin story - no connection back to Genesis or anything that resembles your notions being taught.

He can impersonate the true God and give people false doctrines…..he can even pretend to be Jesus, giving humans the power to heal the sick, and make miracles happen.

Show me the Scripture Jane - is this an unreasonable request?

If such an important doctrine this is and you spruik it all over the forum surely you have something more to show as evidence?

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

God is the greatest lover in the Multiverse. Love means being vulnerable and Jesus manifests this vulnerability. His wooing never ends....even to the point of death. He never says marry me or I'll blow your brains out ie, he never says take it or leave it.

“God is love”…he is the epitome of all that love is….but again, his love and his justice are balanced.
Justice demanded a human life to pay the debt of sin that Adam gave to all his children….Love was the motivation that sent Christ to pay that ransom.

But Jesus actually offered all of his teachings and counsel on a “take it or leave it basis”….not once do we see Jesus say something controversial, and then run after people begging them to reconsider his words. There is a very good reason for that approach. To his audience, much of what he said to those who had been raised with the beliefs taught by the Pharisees, was controversial.…so only those who were willing to listen and really hear the truth he was teaching, recognized it as such, even though it may have been hard to hear.

The very reason why Jesus was a preacher as well as a teacher was in the response of those who came to hear him. Some may have balked at first to something he said that was contrary to what the Pharisees had taught them..…but there was something in his words that ‘drew’ them to want to hear more….and the more they heard, the more they were convince about who was teaching the truth. They saw love in action.

What part did God play in that?
We have the assurance from John 6:44 that God was waiting to see the response in the hearts of those who might have heard an uncomfortable truth preached, but who were processing things in their heart as to the truthfulness of what they are hearing and comparing the humble Jesus and his apostles and the powerful ministry exhibited, to the proud and haughty religious leaders who spewed nothing but hatred for this man who was continually exposing their hypocrisy. (Matt 23)

God would then “draw” a potential “sheep” to want to hear more. In verse 65 after his famous speech about ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’, when so many left in absolute repugnance at the mere suggestion of such a thing, Jesus said to his apostles….”This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66  Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.”

So there was the realization that they were hearing a truth that at first puzzled them, and perhaps shocked them too, but they hung around for the explanation….. Jesus went on to explain ….“The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life”.
So rather than speaking literally, which would have made any Jew baulk, he was speaking spiritually.
Jesus did not run after the ones who left…he let them go to mull over what he said.…God would do the rest.
(1 Cor 3:5-9) Only God can make a seed of truth grow in the heart.

Are we able grasp the breathtaking scope of this or is hiding behind words and justifications like the Priests who passed on the other side of the road of the robbed, bruised and battered fellow citizen.....because it was convenient, because he didn't want to be defiled?

I believe that you are presenting an either/or scenario when it is neither.
The Good Samaritan was slap in the face to the Jewish leaders because the hero of the story was a hated Samaritan, and the injured man was indeed ignored by the Jews who passed him by…..stripped of his clothing and hence not identifiable as a Jew, the attitude of his fellow Jews reflected their disdain for a fellow human in need, in case he ended up being a Samaritan or even an unclean Gentile.

The Good Samaritan however, saw only a fellow human in need, and was not concerned with his race or religion, and even at his own expense, he cared for the man’s needs.

What did Jesus tell his disciples to do? Set up charities for the poor and afflicted? NO! He told them to bind up the spiritual wounds of those who responded, with the good news of something better to come.
It was to those spiritually bruised and battered “lost sheep” that Jesus was sent…..the religious leaders ignored them in every way, pretending that they were not worthy of their care and attention….
Jesus showed that even if one lamb was lost, they were under obligation to go and search for that lamb and gently bring it back into the fold.

How did Jesus find the “lost sheep” among his people? He sent his disciples out to search for them. (Matt 10:11-14) It’s the same today….Jesus said he would be with his disciples in this all important work, which was to be undertaken on a global scope….right to “the end“ of the present world system, so near at hand. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

Look for the hated and persecuted minority who have been active in this work since the “time of the end“ began with the First World War. (John 15:18-21; Matt 5:11-12; Matt 24:3-14)

“By their fruits” Jesus said we would recognize his true disciples…..those who were out in the world, searching for the lost sheep with “good news” of something better to come. (Rev 21:2-4)

Our understanding or lack of it of this gob smacking Grace is reflected in our personal realities ie, what we talk of, our objectives and of course how we behave towards other beings who are equal recipients of God's kindness.

Indeed…so who are those people who are “equal recipients of God’s kindness”….how can we find them?

Paul answers….Romans 10:13-15….
”For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?”

We are “sent out” to preach and to teach them how to “call upon the name of Jehovah” as Paul quoted from Joel 2:32 where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used.
Calling on the name of the wrong “god” will never get anyone saved.

 

[face2face]

it’s not an irritation…it’s a profound sadness because they have no idea how blind they are, and who blinded them. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Sadly you don't know the origin of blindness either

by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. 11:22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God—harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off Ro 11:20–22.

If you think blindness comes from a fiery evil being you are so totally deceived.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane

For connection re your quote:

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing (nature!) , 4:4 among whom the god of this age (sin's flesh!) has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God (and not the image of man!). 4:5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 4:6 For God, who said “Let light shine out of darkness,” (out of a carnal mind!) is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ 2 Co 4:2–6.

What is the god of this age Jane?

1 John 2:16!

You have so much right Jane, but that which you have which is wrong, ripples through everything which you think you have as being right.

F2F

What's sad is even your quotes cannot support your doctrine

 

[face2face]

“God is love”…he is the epitome of all that love is….but again, his love and his justice are balanced.
Justice demanded a human life to pay the debt of sin that Adam gave to all his children….Love was the motivation that sent Christ to pay that ransom.

This is truth

But Jesus actually offered all of his teachings and counsel on a “take it or leave it basis”….not once do we see Jesus say something controversial, and then run after people begging them to reconsider his words. There is a very good reason for that approach. To his audience, much of what he said to those who had been raised with the beliefs taught by the Pharisees, was controversial.…so only those who were willing to listen and really hear the truth he was teaching, recognized it as such, even though it may have been hard to hear.

This is truth

The very reason why Jesus was a preacher as well as a teacher was in the response of those who came to hear him. Some may have balked at first to something he said that was contrary to what the Pharisees had taught them..…but there was something in his words that ‘drew’ them to want to hear more….and the more they heard, the more they were convince about who was teaching the truth. They saw love in action.

What part did God play in that?
We have the assurance from John 6:44 that God was waiting to see the response in the hearts of those who might have heard an uncomfortable truth preached, but who were processing things in their heart as to the truthfulness of what they are hearing and comparing the humble Jesus and his apostles and the powerful ministry exhibited, to the proud and haughty religious leaders who spewed nothing but hatred for this man who was continually exposing their hypocrisy. (Matt 23)

This is truth

God would then “draw” a potential “sheep” to want to hear more. In verse 65 after his famous speech about ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’, when so many left in absolute repugnance at the mere suggestion of such a thing, Jesus said to his apostles….”This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66  Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.”

So there was the realization that they were hearing a truth that at first puzzled them, and perhaps shocked them too, but they hung around for the explanation….. Jesus went on to explain ….“The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life”.
So rather than speaking literally, which would have made any Jew baulk, he was speaking spiritually.
Jesus did not run after the ones who left…he let them go to mull over what he said.…God would do the rest.
(1 Cor 3:5-9) Only God can make a seed of truth grow in the heart.

This is truth

I believe that you are presenting an either/or scenario when it is neither.
The Good Samaritan was slap in the face to the Jewish leaders because the hero of the story was a hated Samaritan, who was indeed ignored by the Jews who passed him by…..stripped of his clothing and hence not identifiable as a Jew, the attitude of his fellow Jews reflected their disdain for a fellow human in need, in case he ended up being a Samaritan or even an unclean Gentile.

The Good Samaritan however, saw only a fellow human in need, and was not concerned with his race or religion, and even at his own expense, he cared for the man’s needs.

What did Jesus tell his disciples to do? Set up charities for the poor and afflicted? NO! He told them to bind up the spiritual wounds of those who responded, with the good news of something better to come.
It was to those spiritually bruised and battered “lost sheep” that Jesus was sent…..the religious leaders ignored them in every way, pretending that they were not worthy of their care and attention….
Jesus showed that even if one lamb was lost, they were under obligation to go and search for that lamb and gently bring it back into the fold.

This is truth

How did Jesus find the “lost sheep” among his people? He sent his disciples out to search for them. (Matt 10:11-14) It’s the same today….Jesus said he would be with his disciples in this all important work, which was to be undertaken on a global scope….right to “the end“ of the present world system, so near at hand. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

This is truth

Look for the hated and persecuted minority who have been active in this work since the “time of the end“ began with the First World War. (John 15:18-21; Matt 5:11-12; Matt 24:3-14)

“By their fruits” Jesus said we would recognize his true disciples…..those who were out in the world, searching for the lost sheep with “good news” of something better to come. (Rev 21:2-4)

Indeed…so who are those people who are “equal recipients of God’s kindness”….how can we find them?

Paul answers….Romans 10:13-15….
”For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?”

We are “sent out” to preach and to teach them how to “call upon the name of Jehovah” as Paul quoted from Joel 2:32 where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used.

In no way can we as disciples of the Lord be compared to the Apostles who were "sent out" with strict instructions of the Lord, we however are to follow their example as disciples in training.

Calling on the name of the wrong “god” will never get anyone saved.

This is truth - I believe you call upon the One True God however you don't have the complete story, or picture of truth. There are degrees of truth and I'm certain this will be revealed to all when he comes who is Truth.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Anyone who agrees with JW's is on the road to Hell Fire!

 

[face2face]

Anyone who agrees with JW's is on the road to Hell Fire!

you give me shivers Jack

 

[Jack]

you give me shivers Jack

Bible scares you?

 

[face2face]

Bible scares you?

No, it's your ignorance which is frightening

 

[quietthinker]

This sounds lovely quiet but there are certain realities about the Lord which you have not considered.

“I tell you the truth, no prophet is acceptable in his hometown" Lk 4:24.

Some towns, he passed by, not because of a lack of love on his part, but the people could not receive him.

Maybe you would judge him harsh? unloving?

What about stepping over the disabled and infirm to heal one man? John 9:7?

F2F

do you want to make excuses?

 

[quietthinker]

“God is love”…he is the epitome of all that love is….but again, his love and his justice are balanced.
Justice demanded a human life to pay the debt of sin that Adam gave to all his children….Love was the motivation that sent Christ to pay that ransom.

But Jesus actually offered all of his teachings and counsel on a “take it or leave it basis”….not once do we see Jesus say something controversial, and then run after people begging them to reconsider his words. There is a very good reason for that approach. To his audience, much of what he said to those who had been raised with the beliefs taught by the Pharisees, was controversial.…so only those who were willing to listen and really hear the truth he was teaching, recognized it as such, even though it may have been hard to hear.

The very reason why Jesus was a preacher as well as a teacher was in the response of those who came to hear him. Some may have balked at first to something he said that was contrary to what the Pharisees had taught them..…but there was something in his words that ‘drew’ them to want to hear more….and the more they heard, the more they were convince about who was teaching the truth. They saw love in action.

What part did God play in that?
We have the assurance from John 6:44 that God was waiting to see the response in the hearts of those who might have heard an uncomfortable truth preached, but who were processing things in their heart as to the truthfulness of what they are hearing and comparing the humble Jesus and his apostles and the powerful ministry exhibited, to the proud and haughty religious leaders who spewed nothing but hatred for this man who was continually exposing their hypocrisy. (Matt 23)

God would then “draw” a potential “sheep” to want to hear more. In verse 65 after his famous speech about ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’, when so many left in absolute repugnance at the mere suggestion of such a thing, Jesus said to his apostles….”This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66  Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.”

So there was the realization that they were hearing a truth that at first puzzled them, and perhaps shocked them too, but they hung around for the explanation….. Jesus went on to explain ….“The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life”.
So rather than speaking literally, which would have made any Jew baulk, he was speaking spiritually.
Jesus did not run after the ones who left…he let them go to mull over what he said.…God would do the rest.
(1 Cor 3:5-9) Only God can make a seed of truth grow in the heart.

I believe that you are presenting an either/or scenario when it is neither.
The Good Samaritan was slap in the face to the Jewish leaders because the hero of the story was a hated Samaritan, who was indeed ignored by the Jews who passed him by…..stripped of his clothing and hence not identifiable as a Jew, the attitude of his fellow Jews reflected their disdain for a fellow human in need, in case he ended up being a Samaritan or even an unclean Gentile.

The Good Samaritan however, saw only a fellow human in need, and was not concerned with his race or religion, and even at his own expense, he cared for the man’s needs.

What did Jesus tell his disciples to do? Set up charities for the poor and afflicted? NO! He told them to bind up the spiritual wounds of those who responded, with the good news of something better to come.
It was to those spiritually bruised and battered “lost sheep” that Jesus was sent…..the religious leaders ignored them in every way, pretending that they were not worthy of their care and attention….
Jesus showed that even if one lamb was lost, they were under obligation to go and search for that lamb and gently bring it back into the fold.

How did Jesus find the “lost sheep” among his people? He sent his disciples out to search for them. (Matt 10:11-14) It’s the same today….Jesus said he would be with his disciples in this all important work, which was to be undertaken on a global scope….right to “the end“ of the present world system, so near at hand. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

Look for the hated and persecuted minority who have been active in this work since the “time of the end“ began with the First World War. (John 15:18-21; Matt 5:11-12; Matt 24:3-14)

“By their fruits” Jesus said we would recognize his true disciples…..those who were out in the world, searching for the lost sheep with “good news” of something better to come. (Rev 21:2-4)

Indeed…so who are those people who are “equal recipients of God’s kindness”….how can we find them?

Paul answers….Romans 10:13-15….
”For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?”

We are “sent out” to preach and to teach them how to “call upon the name of Jehovah” as Paul quoted from Joel 2:32 where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used.
Calling on the name of the wrong “god” will never get anyone saved.

God's justice is liberating the oppressed. It is not requiring payment .....as if God were petty like us.
Grace...yes, Amazing Grace ....let it amaze and you and you will gladly sing his praises without even being prompted .... or resist it as did Judas.

Resistance is the great sin aka unbelief.

 

[Wick Stick]

This was clever F2F-I gave you no council except to respond, never react.

Look up Nachash-

The nachash (נָחָשׁ) in Genesis 3 is traditionally understood to be the serpent that tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, leading to the fall of humanity. The Hebrew word "nachash" has been the subject of various interpretations and theological discussions over the centuries, giving rise to different perspectives on its meaning, symbolism, and identity.

1. Literal Interpretation: The Serpent
In the most straightforward reading of Genesis 3, the nachash is simply a serpent. This is reflected in most Bible translations:

Genesis 3:1 (Lexham Bible Translation): "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made."
The narrative describes how the serpent approached Eve, tempted her to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and subsequently led both her and Adam to disobey God’s command (Genesis 3:1-7).

2. Symbolic Interpretation: Satan or a Fallen Angel
In Christian tradition, the nachash is often associated with Satan. This interpretation is not explicitly stated in Genesis 3, but it is developed in later biblical texts and Christian theology.

Revelation 12:9 refers to Satan as "that ancient serpent" (ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος), drawing a connection between the serpent in the Garden and the figure of Satan as a deceiver.

2 Corinthians 11:3 and John 8:44 also emphasize Satan's role as a liar and deceiver, implying a connection with the nachash of Genesis.
From this viewpoint, the serpent in the garden is more than just a literal animal; it is a manifestation of Satan or a fallen angel using the serpent as a vessel to carry out the deception.

3. The Word "Nachash" and Its Possible Meanings
In Hebrew, the word nachash can be interpreted in a few different ways, and some scholars believe that the word may hold deeper layers of meaning that go beyond just a serpent:

Serpent: The most basic and common meaning of nachash is "serpent" or "snake." This is how it is understood in the Genesis account, where the creature is described as a being that could communicate and deceive Eve.

Shining One: Some scholars suggest that nachash is connected to the Hebrew root meaning "to shine" or "to glisten," which could imply that the nachash was originally a radiant, shining being—perhaps even related to the angelic realm. This interpretation might align with the description of Satan as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Diviner/Enchanter: Another possibility is that nachash could be related to the Hebrew verb נָחַשׁ (nachash), which means "to practice divination" or "to use enchantments." This might suggest that the nachash in Genesis 3 was associated with occult wisdom or forbidden knowledge, which could tie into the serpent’s role in leading Eve to seek knowledge apart from God.

4. The Nachash as a Rebel or Agent of Chaos
In some interpretations, particularly those informed by ancient Near Eastern thought, the nachash can be seen as a symbol of chaos or a rebel against divine order. In many ancient cultures, serpents were symbols of wisdom, power, but also chaos and death. The serpent's role in Genesis could symbolize the introduction of chaos and disorder into God's creation through disobedience.

Additionally, in later Jewish tradition, the nachash is sometimes associated with Samael, an angelic figure who is considered a seducer or accuser, further linking the serpent with rebellious spiritual beings.

5. Rabbinical Interpretations
In early Jewish exegesis, the serpent is sometimes viewed as a symbol of humanity's lower nature or desires. Some rabbis interpret the serpent as a representation of the yetzer hara (the evil inclination), the part of human nature that leads to sin.

Others speculate that the serpent had originally been an upright and intelligent creature, but after the fall, it was cursed to crawl on its belly and lose its original status (Genesis 3:14).

6. Conclusion: Nachash as a Complex Figure
The identity of the nachash in Genesis 3 is complex and layered with symbolic meaning:

At a literal level, it is a serpent that tempts Eve.
In Christian theology, it is often associated with Satan, symbolizing the deception and rebellion against God.
Linguistic studies suggest that the word nachash could carry connotations of shining or divination, hinting at a more exalted or supernatural nature for the being.
It could also be understood as a symbol of chaos or rebellion against God's created order.

The serpent’s role in the fall of humanity sets the stage for the redemptive narrative that culminates in Jesus Christ, who is said to crush the serpent’s head (Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20), defeating sin and death.

J.

You're all over the place here.

The serpent is a symbol of wisdom, not Satan. Satan is there in the garden, though. Ezekiel tells us who he is, even.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so.
Eze 28:13-14

 

[Jack]

No, it's your ignorance which is frightening

You call yourself 'Christian' and reject the Christian Bible and you call me ignorant?