quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I see you haven't understood the God of Jesus....but prefer the God the Hebrews insisted on
Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Slick man-selective reading of Scripture. WRONGLY dividing the Scriptures, therefore not standing dokimazo-ed.
Time to get yourself acquainted with the Pauline letters.
Romans 1:18 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by unrighteousness."
This verse clearly indicates that God's wrath is revealed against the ungodly and those who practice unrighteousness, suppressing the truth.
2. Romans 2:5 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed."
Paul speaks of wrath being accumulated by those who remain unrepentant, warning of a future day of judgment when God's wrath will be fully revealed.
3. Romans 5:9 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath."
This verse highlights the wrath of God but also points to the salvation through Christ's sacrifice, which delivers believers from experiencing God's wrath.
4. Ephesians 5:6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience."
Paul warns that God’s wrath is coming upon those who live in disobedience and practice the very sins he admonishes against in the surrounding context.
5. Colossians 3:6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience."
In this passage, similar to Ephesians, Paul points out that specific sinful behaviors bring about God’s wrath on those who persist in disobedience.
Paul's epistles stress that while God's wrath is real and will be revealed against sin, believers are rescued from that wrath through faith in Jesus Christ. His writings reflect a balance between warning about judgment and offering the hope of salvation through the gospel.
Where will you run?
Hell and the reality of Hell is in the red letters and Jesus spoke more about Hell than the other writers-then you have the Pauline epistles--
Rightly Dividing the Scriptures:
2 Timothy 2:15 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth."
The phrase "correctly teaching" or "rightly dividing" in some translations is from the Greek ὀρθοτομέω (orthotomeō), meaning to cut straight or handle correctly, referring to careful and accurate interpretation of Scripture.
1 Corinthians 4:6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Now these things, brothers, I have applied to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that by us you may learn not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will become arrogant, favoring one against the other."
Paul instructs the Corinthians not to go beyond what is written, indicating the importance of staying true to the teachings of Scripture without distorting or misinterpreting it.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Above all, you do well if you recognize this: No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
This passage reminds readers that Scripture must be interpreted with proper understanding, as it is inspired by God and not subject to personal opinions or misinterpretation.
Not Adding to His Words:
Deuteronomy 4:2 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"You shall not add to the word that I am commanding you, and you shall not take away from it, in order to keep the commands of Yahweh your God that I am commanding you."
A clear command to not add or subtract from God's Word, emphasizing the need for fidelity to His instructions.
Deuteronomy 12:32 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"All of the things that I am commanding you, you must diligently observe; you shall not add to it, and you shall not take away from it."
This reinforces the idea of keeping God’s commandments without altering them in any way.
Proverbs 30:5-6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and prove you a liar."
This verse explicitly warns against adding to God’s words, stressing the perfection of His Word and the consequences of modifying it.
Revelation 22:18-19 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
A strong warning at the end of the Bible against adding or taking away from the prophetic words of Scripture, with severe consequences for doing so.
Shalom
J.
Already answered--just as it stands written in Scripture.
Do a search on this forum.
You don't believe in the reality of Hell nor the Orge and Thumos of our Holy Father and guess who is going to be our Judge?
J.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God/ Jesus will rescue those waiting for him at his return. That is his preventative plan. Those who don't want anything to do with his righteousness will be left to their choice which will result in self destruction. God does not violate them or their choices but leaves them to the inevitable consequences.
Judas is an example of what will happen the wicked....he killed himself because he wouldn't believe he could be forgiven even after walking with Jesus three years. He preferred his own strategy and it resulted in death by his own hand.
The antediluvians chose to stay outside the Ark even while they saw the animals walking in. God knew a flood was coming and commissioned Noah to build a boat for the safety of all and any who wanted escape.
We might then ask who was responsible for sending the flood? Moses tells us it was God but Jesus tells us that God is not in the destroying business but rather in the rescuing business. He also clearly tells us who the destroyer was/is ie, the devil. John 10:10
The events on the Mount of Transfiguration has God's voice from the cloud telling the disciples ...and thereby us, who to listen to. Not Moses, not Elijah, both revered by the Hebrews/ Jews but to Jesus.
Why Jesus? Chapter 1 in the book of Hebrews tells us that only Jesus is the exact representation of the Father; (how the Father speaks and acts) the only eyewitness. Jesus is superior to anyone of the Prophets, his words, his person, his life trumps everyone else irrespective of how referred their reputation is.
The information Jesus has come to share is accurate like none other.....even the perceptions of the Prophets which we have learned through Jesus, were often flawed.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You haven't given me your version of how you understand 'the wrath of God' ....and I would add, you have missed the description of God's wrath made clear in Romans which you have posted.
But He created them exactly as He wanted to! He NEVER makes mistakes!
Romans 9:22
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
God knew exactly who would burn in Hell when He created.
Jesus is indeed God the Creator!
You really want to go this route with me?
What is it I have 'missed the mark" re the wrath of YHVH and find out, shall we?
J.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Roman 1 tells us what God's wrath is in vs 18, vs 24, vs 26, and vs 28....It tells us 'he gave them over'. To what I would ask? Chapter 1:29-32 reveals he gave them over to the consequences of their choices. In other words, insist on choosing to put your hand in fire and it will get burned.
God is not burning them, they are doing it themselves. THIS is how we are to understand statements like 'God's wrath"
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
IT’S GOD WHO SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL – AND THE BIBLE DOESN’T SHY AWAY FROM THIS
Joseph Dear
I hear all the time now, almost entirely from those who believe in eternal conscious hell, that God doesn’t send people to hell. 1 2 3 4 Rather, people send themselves to hell. Many quote C.S. Lewis on this, while those who do not cite him directly still echo his general sentiments:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. 5 6
But according to the Bible, it’s God who sends people to hell.
Why Does This Matter?
Now, this isn’t an argument for annihilationism per se. Traditionalists, conditionalists, and even universalists could concede that God sends people to hell. It’s what happens to those in hell once they are there that determines which view is true. 7
The reason this matters to the doctrine of hell is because it has become part of an ongoing trend to soften the doctrine of eternal conscious hell to make it more palatable. For our purposes we will refer to this softened view as the metaphorical view.
Often it is annihilationists who are accused of trying to make hell more palatable, but this has been going on in the traditionalist camp for a while now. We have discussed this at length before, how those who have held to eternal conscious hell have historically believed very much in a place of fiery torture and God’s active wrath, and how if eternal conscious hell is true at all, this historical version is how the Bible would be describing it. 8 9 10
Traditionalists are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Not that people are intentionally lying, but sometimes bad ideas make their way into the public consciousness and become normalized, and this softening of eternal conscious hell has done so to a great degree in evangelicalism and beyond. As such, those who hold this view want to say that they are being orthodox and holding to the tradition and to biblical teaching even when they don’t like it, while at the same time getting to defend God to unbelievers because “hell is not a torture chamber” and, along these lines, “God doesn’t send people to hell.”
But he does send people to hell. The Bible doesn’t hide away from this at all.
As annihilationists, it is increasingly essential that when a traditionalist holds to a clearly unbiblical happy-medium view like the metaphorical view, we challenge them on it. If someone is going to accept the traditional view of hell, then they need to accept all of it.
Yes, the unsaved deserve to go to hell. But while we may sometimes say “you did it to yourself” to a person who does a bad thing and gets punished for it, that isn’t meant as a literal statement. Their parents or the school or legal system behind the consequence fundamentally take ownership of the penalty they impose. And so does God in the Bible.
Some Key Texts 11 12
The idea of God as an active judge who inflicts vengeance upon the guilty is something one can find throughout the Bible. Below are a few key New Testament texts that I think really drive the point home for our purposes here.
Matthew 25:41
Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This passage is usually appealed to as a prooftext for eternal conscious hell because it describes hell as “eternal fire.” The Bible’s use of this phrase and why it does not indicate a fire burning people forever has been addressed here previously. 13 14
But this passage is noteworthy for our purposes because it features Jesus himself, who is supposed to be the nice one, the one who is supposed to be the truest revelation of God and therefore show us that God is actually loving and merciful (as if that wasn’t already shown in the Old Testament) – and yet he is condemning people to hellfire. He does not passively watch it happen as they choose to go away from him. He actively sends away – and into the fire. 15
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (HCSB)
It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
This passage is often appealed to in order to show that hell is separation from God, although even that is questionable as it depends on certain renderings of ambiguous Greek. 16 17
But rather than being a passive separation, where God just graciously says to those who don’t want to know him “thy will be done,” instead it describes Jesus himself coming in flames and fury and delivering vengeance unto the wicked (Verse 8). Paul even makes sure to emphasize that Christ pays back those who persecuted his people affliction for affliction (Verse 6). God is shown here as an avenger, not just a passive respecter of free choice.
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Here we again see the Bible embracing God’s vengeance. He avenges. He repays. He doesn’t merely cut himself off from those who want to be apart from him anyway.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
After telling a parable where wheat and weeds are harvested and the weeds are burned up, Jesus explains the meaning to his disciples.
It’s hard to say that God doesn’t send people to hell when his agents, the angels, at Christ’s command take the wicked and throw them into the fires of hell like throwing away refuse (a form of refuse that quickly burns up to ashes, for good measure). 18 Keep in mind that I am not describing the parable, but Jesus’s explanation of the parable. Other than maybe speaking of hellfire in a slightly figurative manner as “the furnace of fire” (to play off the furnace in the parable), this is a straightforward clarification of a symbolic story.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Here, hell is not mentioned explicitly. However, Jesus does command these people to depart from him at judgment. And yet, rather than embracing the fact that the God they hate has sent them away, they are trying to plead their case and are denied.
It sounds a lot like Jesus is, again, sending them to hell (and for good measure, they are not getting the outcome they wanted).
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
This is, of course, a major prooftext for eternal conscious hell – which is the main reason I brought it up – and we have addressed it here previously as well. 19
But its use in demonstrating eternal conscious hell seems very odd for adherents of the metaphorical view in general. Revelation is very symbolic, of course, but nevertheless one must say that physical torment (i.e. torture) with fire, in the presence of Christ and the angels, is meant to symbolize fireless, non-physical anguish away from Christ.
And while it doesn’t specifically show people being sent to hell by force, it also seems quite odd to describe the internal, self-inflicted torment of being separated from God as being the full-strength wrath of God, culminating in being burned alive with fire and sulfur.
God’s Active Role in Final Punishment Is Frequently Referenced in Scripture
J.
Joseph Dear
I hear all the time now, almost entirely from those who believe in eternal conscious hell, that God doesn’t send people to hell. 1 2 3 4 Rather, people send themselves to hell. Many quote C.S. Lewis on this, while those who do not cite him directly still echo his general sentiments:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. 5 6
But according to the Bible, it’s God who sends people to hell.
Why Does This Matter?
Now, this isn’t an argument for annihilationism per se. Traditionalists, conditionalists, and even universalists could concede that God sends people to hell. It’s what happens to those in hell once they are there that determines which view is true. 7
The reason this matters to the doctrine of hell is because it has become part of an ongoing trend to soften the doctrine of eternal conscious hell to make it more palatable. For our purposes we will refer to this softened view as the metaphorical view.
Often it is annihilationists who are accused of trying to make hell more palatable, but this has been going on in the traditionalist camp for a while now. We have discussed this at length before, how those who have held to eternal conscious hell have historically believed very much in a place of fiery torture and God’s active wrath, and how if eternal conscious hell is true at all, this historical version is how the Bible would be describing it. 8 9 10
Traditionalists are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Not that people are intentionally lying, but sometimes bad ideas make their way into the public consciousness and become normalized, and this softening of eternal conscious hell has done so to a great degree in evangelicalism and beyond. As such, those who hold this view want to say that they are being orthodox and holding to the tradition and to biblical teaching even when they don’t like it, while at the same time getting to defend God to unbelievers because “hell is not a torture chamber” and, along these lines, “God doesn’t send people to hell.”
But he does send people to hell. The Bible doesn’t hide away from this at all.
As annihilationists, it is increasingly essential that when a traditionalist holds to a clearly unbiblical happy-medium view like the metaphorical view, we challenge them on it. If someone is going to accept the traditional view of hell, then they need to accept all of it.
Yes, the unsaved deserve to go to hell. But while we may sometimes say “you did it to yourself” to a person who does a bad thing and gets punished for it, that isn’t meant as a literal statement. Their parents or the school or legal system behind the consequence fundamentally take ownership of the penalty they impose. And so does God in the Bible.
Some Key Texts 11 12
The idea of God as an active judge who inflicts vengeance upon the guilty is something one can find throughout the Bible. Below are a few key New Testament texts that I think really drive the point home for our purposes here.
Matthew 25:41
Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This passage is usually appealed to as a prooftext for eternal conscious hell because it describes hell as “eternal fire.” The Bible’s use of this phrase and why it does not indicate a fire burning people forever has been addressed here previously. 13 14
But this passage is noteworthy for our purposes because it features Jesus himself, who is supposed to be the nice one, the one who is supposed to be the truest revelation of God and therefore show us that God is actually loving and merciful (as if that wasn’t already shown in the Old Testament) – and yet he is condemning people to hellfire. He does not passively watch it happen as they choose to go away from him. He actively sends away – and into the fire. 15
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (HCSB)
It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
This passage is often appealed to in order to show that hell is separation from God, although even that is questionable as it depends on certain renderings of ambiguous Greek. 16 17
But rather than being a passive separation, where God just graciously says to those who don’t want to know him “thy will be done,” instead it describes Jesus himself coming in flames and fury and delivering vengeance unto the wicked (Verse 8). Paul even makes sure to emphasize that Christ pays back those who persecuted his people affliction for affliction (Verse 6). God is shown here as an avenger, not just a passive respecter of free choice.
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Here we again see the Bible embracing God’s vengeance. He avenges. He repays. He doesn’t merely cut himself off from those who want to be apart from him anyway.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
After telling a parable where wheat and weeds are harvested and the weeds are burned up, Jesus explains the meaning to his disciples.
It’s hard to say that God doesn’t send people to hell when his agents, the angels, at Christ’s command take the wicked and throw them into the fires of hell like throwing away refuse (a form of refuse that quickly burns up to ashes, for good measure). 18 Keep in mind that I am not describing the parable, but Jesus’s explanation of the parable. Other than maybe speaking of hellfire in a slightly figurative manner as “the furnace of fire” (to play off the furnace in the parable), this is a straightforward clarification of a symbolic story.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Here, hell is not mentioned explicitly. However, Jesus does command these people to depart from him at judgment. And yet, rather than embracing the fact that the God they hate has sent them away, they are trying to plead their case and are denied.
It sounds a lot like Jesus is, again, sending them to hell (and for good measure, they are not getting the outcome they wanted).
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
This is, of course, a major prooftext for eternal conscious hell – which is the main reason I brought it up – and we have addressed it here previously as well. 19
But its use in demonstrating eternal conscious hell seems very odd for adherents of the metaphorical view in general. Revelation is very symbolic, of course, but nevertheless one must say that physical torment (i.e. torture) with fire, in the presence of Christ and the angels, is meant to symbolize fireless, non-physical anguish away from Christ.
And while it doesn’t specifically show people being sent to hell by force, it also seems quite odd to describe the internal, self-inflicted torment of being separated from God as being the full-strength wrath of God, culminating in being burned alive with fire and sulfur.
God’s Active Role in Final Punishment Is Frequently Referenced in Scripture
It’s God Who Sends People To Hell - And The Bible Doesn’t Shy Away From This | Rethinking Hell
I hear all the time now, almost entirely from those who believe in eternal conscious hell, that God doesn’t send people to hell. (( This is most common in online discussions and very informal settings…
rethinkinghell.com
J.
No, this is not a truthful statement.
Why Does This Matter?
Now, this isn’t an argument for annihilationism per se. Traditionalists, conditionalists, and even universalists could concede that God sends people to hell. It’s what happens to those in hell once they are there that determines which view is true. 7
The reason this matters to the doctrine of hell is because it has become part of an ongoing trend to soften the doctrine of eternal conscious hell to make it more palatable. For our purposes we will refer to this softened view as the metaphorical view.
Often it is annihilationists who are accused of trying to make hell more palatable, but this has been going on in the traditionalist camp for a while now. We have discussed this at length before, how those who have held to eternal conscious hell have historically believed very much in a place of fiery torture and God’s active wrath, and how if eternal conscious hell is true at all, this historical version is how the Bible would be describing it. 8 9 10
Traditionalists are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Not that people are intentionally lying, but sometimes bad ideas make their way into the public consciousness and become normalized, and this softening of eternal conscious hell has done so to a great degree in evangelicalism and beyond. As such, those who hold this view want to say that they are being orthodox and holding to the tradition and to biblical teaching even when they don’t like it, while at the same time getting to defend God to unbelievers because “hell is not a torture chamber” and, along these lines, “God doesn’t send people to hell.”
But he does send people to hell. The Bible doesn’t hide away from this at all.
As annihilationists, it is increasingly essential that when a traditionalist holds to a clearly unbiblical happy-medium view like the metaphorical view, we challenge them on it. If someone is going to accept the traditional view of hell, then they need to accept all of it.
Yes, the unsaved deserve to go to hell. But while we may sometimes say “you did it to yourself” to a person who does a bad thing and gets punished for it, that isn’t meant as a literal statement. Their parents or the school or legal system behind the consequence fundamentally take ownership of the penalty they impose. And so does God in the Bible.
Some Key Texts 11 12
The idea of God as an active judge who inflicts vengeance upon the guilty is something one can find throughout the Bible. Below are a few key New Testament texts that I think really drive the point home for our purposes here.
Matthew 25:41
Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This passage is usually appealed to as a prooftext for eternal conscious hell because it describes hell as “eternal fire.” The Bible’s use of this phrase and why it does not indicate a fire burning people forever has been addressed here previously. 13 14
But this passage is noteworthy for our purposes because it features Jesus himself, who is supposed to be the nice one, the one who is supposed to be the truest revelation of God and therefore show us that God is actually loving and merciful (as if that wasn’t already shown in the Old Testament) – and yet he is condemning people to hellfire. He does not passively watch it happen as they choose to go away from him. He actively sends away – and into the fire. 15
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (HCSB)
It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
This passage is often appealed to in order to show that hell is separation from God, although even that is questionable as it depends on certain renderings of ambiguous Greek. 16 17
But rather than being a passive separation, where God just graciously says to those who don’t want to know him “thy will be done,” instead it describes Jesus himself coming in flames and fury and delivering vengeance unto the wicked (Verse 8). Paul even makes sure to emphasize that Christ pays back those who persecuted his people affliction for affliction (Verse 6). God is shown here as an avenger, not just a passive respecter of free choice.
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Here we again see the Bible embracing God’s vengeance. He avenges. He repays. He doesn’t merely cut himself off from those who want to be apart from him anyway.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
After telling a parable where wheat and weeds are harvested and the weeds are burned up, Jesus explains the meaning to his disciples.
It’s hard to say that God doesn’t send people to hell when his agents, the angels, at Christ’s command take the wicked and throw them into the fires of hell like throwing away refuse (a form of refuse that quickly burns up to ashes, for good measure). 18 Keep in mind that I am not describing the parable, but Jesus’s explanation of the parable. Other than maybe speaking of hellfire in a slightly figurative manner as “the furnace of fire” (to play off the furnace in the parable), this is a straightforward clarification of a symbolic story.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Here, hell is not mentioned explicitly. However, Jesus does command these people to depart from him at judgment. And yet, rather than embracing the fact that the God they hate has sent them away, they are trying to plead their case and are denied.
It sounds a lot like Jesus is, again, sending them to hell (and for good measure, they are not getting the outcome they wanted).
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
This is, of course, a major prooftext for eternal conscious hell – which is the main reason I brought it up – and we have addressed it here previously as well. 19
But its use in demonstrating eternal conscious hell seems very odd for adherents of the metaphorical view in general. Revelation is very symbolic, of course, but nevertheless one must say that physical torment (i.e. torture) with fire, in the presence of Christ and the angels, is meant to symbolize fireless, non-physical anguish away from Christ.
And while it doesn’t specifically show people being sent to hell by force, it also seems quite odd to describe the internal, self-inflicted torment of being separated from God as being the full-strength wrath of God, culminating in being burned alive with fire and sulfur.
God’s Active Role in Final Punishment Is Frequently Referenced in Scripture
These are among any number of relevant passages in the New Testament alone. Matthew 10:28 reminds us that God can actively destroy both body and soul in hell (as opposed to just passively letting the wicked go there). 20 James 4:12 is similar. Matthew 25:46 reminds us that hell is the “eternal punishment” of the wicked, which would mean it is the opposite of what they desire. 21 Hebrews 10:30-31 mimics Romans 12:19 and also reminds us, regarding those who deliberately continue to live in wickedness, “it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” 22 The wicked have every reason to fear God, not just to fear that they will be separated from him – as they had already desired anyway.
Link given.
J.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Too many words Johann. Be succinct.IT’S GOD WHO SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL – AND THE BIBLE DOESN’T SHY AWAY FROM THIS
Joseph Dear
I hear all the time now, almost entirely from those who believe in eternal conscious hell, that God doesn’t send people to hell. 1 2 3 4 Rather, people send themselves to hell. Many quote C.S. Lewis on this, while those who do not cite him directly still echo his general sentiments:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. 5 6
But according to the Bible, it’s God who sends people to hell.
Why Does This Matter?
Now, this isn’t an argument for annihilationism per se. Traditionalists, conditionalists, and even universalists could concede that God sends people to hell. It’s what happens to those in hell once they are there that determines which view is true. 7
The reason this matters to the doctrine of hell is because it has become part of an ongoing trend to soften the doctrine of eternal conscious hell to make it more palatable. For our purposes we will refer to this softened view as the metaphorical view.
Often it is annihilationists who are accused of trying to make hell more palatable, but this has been going on in the traditionalist camp for a while now. We have discussed this at length before, how those who have held to eternal conscious hell have historically believed very much in a place of fiery torture and God’s active wrath, and how if eternal conscious hell is true at all, this historical version is how the Bible would be describing it. 8 9 10
Traditionalists are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Not that people are intentionally lying, but sometimes bad ideas make their way into the public consciousness and become normalized, and this softening of eternal conscious hell has done so to a great degree in evangelicalism and beyond. As such, those who hold this view want to say that they are being orthodox and holding to the tradition and to biblical teaching even when they don’t like it, while at the same time getting to defend God to unbelievers because “hell is not a torture chamber” and, along these lines, “God doesn’t send people to hell.”
But he does send people to hell. The Bible doesn’t hide away from this at all.
As annihilationists, it is increasingly essential that when a traditionalist holds to a clearly unbiblical happy-medium view like the metaphorical view, we challenge them on it. If someone is going to accept the traditional view of hell, then they need to accept all of it.
Yes, the unsaved deserve to go to hell. But while we may sometimes say “you did it to yourself” to a person who does a bad thing and gets punished for it, that isn’t meant as a literal statement. Their parents or the school or legal system behind the consequence fundamentally take ownership of the penalty they impose. And so does God in the Bible.
Some Key Texts 11 12
The idea of God as an active judge who inflicts vengeance upon the guilty is something one can find throughout the Bible. Below are a few key New Testament texts that I think really drive the point home for our purposes here.
Matthew 25:41
Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This passage is usually appealed to as a prooftext for eternal conscious hell because it describes hell as “eternal fire.” The Bible’s use of this phrase and why it does not indicate a fire burning people forever has been addressed here previously. 13 14
But this passage is noteworthy for our purposes because it features Jesus himself, who is supposed to be the nice one, the one who is supposed to be the truest revelation of God and therefore show us that God is actually loving and merciful (as if that wasn’t already shown in the Old Testament) – and yet he is condemning people to hellfire. He does not passively watch it happen as they choose to go away from him. He actively sends away – and into the fire. 15
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (HCSB)
It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
This passage is often appealed to in order to show that hell is separation from God, although even that is questionable as it depends on certain renderings of ambiguous Greek. 16 17
But rather than being a passive separation, where God just graciously says to those who don’t want to know him “thy will be done,” instead it describes Jesus himself coming in flames and fury and delivering vengeance unto the wicked (Verse 8). Paul even makes sure to emphasize that Christ pays back those who persecuted his people affliction for affliction (Verse 6). God is shown here as an avenger, not just a passive respecter of free choice.
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Here we again see the Bible embracing God’s vengeance. He avenges. He repays. He doesn’t merely cut himself off from those who want to be apart from him anyway.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
After telling a parable where wheat and weeds are harvested and the weeds are burned up, Jesus explains the meaning to his disciples.
It’s hard to say that God doesn’t send people to hell when his agents, the angels, at Christ’s command take the wicked and throw them into the fires of hell like throwing away refuse (a form of refuse that quickly burns up to ashes, for good measure). 18 Keep in mind that I am not describing the parable, but Jesus’s explanation of the parable. Other than maybe speaking of hellfire in a slightly figurative manner as “the furnace of fire” (to play off the furnace in the parable), this is a straightforward clarification of a symbolic story.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Here, hell is not mentioned explicitly. However, Jesus does command these people to depart from him at judgment. And yet, rather than embracing the fact that the God they hate has sent them away, they are trying to plead their case and are denied.
It sounds a lot like Jesus is, again, sending them to hell (and for good measure, they are not getting the outcome they wanted).
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
This is, of course, a major prooftext for eternal conscious hell – which is the main reason I brought it up – and we have addressed it here previously as well. 19
But its use in demonstrating eternal conscious hell seems very odd for adherents of the metaphorical view in general. Revelation is very symbolic, of course, but nevertheless one must say that physical torment (i.e. torture) with fire, in the presence of Christ and the angels, is meant to symbolize fireless, non-physical anguish away from Christ.
And while it doesn’t specifically show people being sent to hell by force, it also seems quite odd to describe the internal, self-inflicted torment of being separated from God as being the full-strength wrath of God, culminating in being burned alive with fire and sulfur.
God’s Active Role in Final Punishment Is Frequently Referenced in Scripture
It’s God Who Sends People To Hell - And The Bible Doesn’t Shy Away From This | Rethinking Hell
I hear all the time now, almost entirely from those who believe in eternal conscious hell, that God doesn’t send people to hell. (( This is most common in online discussions and very informal settings…rethinkinghell.com
J.
Sounds like someone looking for a quick conclusion, but that's not how it works, brother. If you're not willing to read, others will.
Here are key scriptures that address God and Jesus sending unbelievers to hell-diametrically opposed to what you told @Jack
Matthew 10:28 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. But instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Greek Key Words:
"Destroy" = ἀπολέσαι (apolesai): from ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi), meaning to utterly destroy or perish. This destruction refers to total loss, not just physical death.
"Hell" = γέεννα (Gehenna): originally referring to the Valley of Hinnom, a place of burning refuse, it became a metaphor for eternal punishment and torment.
2. Matthew 25:41 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!’"
Greek Key Words:
"Depart" = πορεύεσθε (poreuesthe): imperative of πορεύομαι (poreuomai), meaning to go or depart.
"Eternal fire" = πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον (pyr to aiōnion): indicating everlasting punishment.
"Prepared" = ἡτοιμασμένον (hetoimasmenon): from ἑτοιμάζω (hetoimazō), meaning to prepare or make ready.
3. Revelation 20:15 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Greek Key Words:
"Thrown" = ἐβλήθη (eblēthē): aorist passive of βάλλω (ballō), meaning to be cast or thrown.
"Lake of fire" = λίμνη τοῦ πυρός (limnē tou pyros): symbolizing the place of final eternal judgment.
4. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
Greek Key Words:
"Vengeance" = ἐκδίκησιν (ekdikēsin): meaning retribution or punishment.
"Destruction" = ὄλεθρον (olethron): meaning ruin or perdition.
"Eternal" = αἰώνιον (aiōnion): meaning everlasting or without end.
5. Mark 9:43 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
Greek Key Words:
"Hell" = γέεννα (Gehenna): referring to the place of final judgment.
"Unquenchable fire" = πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον (pyr to asbestos): meaning a fire that cannot be extinguished.
Succinct enough?
J.
What does your belief in hell say about the character of God?
You have worked hard to make a case against God's good character.
[ cc: @quietthinker
God's character and that of the Messiah remain intact. Selective reading of Scripture, if that's the approach, simply won't suffice.
J.
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