I agree, so “the end” can be referring to the cross. In fact we should be giving the events at the cross a high probability of being “the end” when we see that phrase.
Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
There will be NO "little horn" to come, even upto the "consumation". That prophecy was fulfilled by Antiochus lV Epiphanes in the latter time of the 3rd beast, the Grecian Empire.
Prophecy once fulfilled, cannot be fulfilled again.
Maybe you don't understand WHEN the end of the world began. Heb. 9
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Ever since the Grace of God came into the world through Jesus and Pentecost, every day forward since then, we all have been in "the end of the world". However, prior to that, was the "Age of Indignation". That Age had an end also, and is now long past. Dan. 8:19, 11:30, 36.
Only God the Father shall declare when the LAST Day of His NC. "Age of Grace" shall be, and that will come when people stop repenting towards Him, through faith in Jesus.
So yes, the book of Rev. is about the "end days" but from when they "began" through Christ and Pentecost, during this present "Age of God's Grace". However, the book of Daniel is about OC Israel (Dan. 9:24), which was about the end of that "Age of Indignation".
Daniel was written for OC. Israel, as the book of Rev. is written for Christ's NC. church.
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Two different things - put an end to sins - Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection to put an end to sin's power to cause eternal separation from God.
The time of the end in prophecy passages, as I listed, is referring to the end of man governing himself... i.e. the time of Jesus's return.
No, the vision about the little horn, and the 2300 days are time of end. Antiochus IV was not time of the end, nor did Antiochus attempt to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus.
Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
In Luke 19:11-26 is the parable of the Mina’s. In verse 17 the faithful servant receives authority over ten cities. This is man governing man and this takes place after the nobleman returns from receiving the kingdom.
When will the faithful servant be governing the cities?
Would you mind telling me who is being mentioned in 7:19-25? What kingdom did he arrive and when? Doesn't the "little horn" continue until the end of time when he will be destroyed without human hands?
Luke 19:11-26 is a parable of investing time and energy in preparing for the Kingdom of God to rule over the nations.
When Jesus returns, He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. And the faithful servants, ruling under Him, will rule with him.
Revelation 2:
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Oh Douggg! The parable of the Minas is not about investing time and energy in preparing for the kingdom of God to rule over the nations. Nor, when Jesus returns, will the Good and Faithful servants be ruling with Christ after He is given dominion over the peoples of the earth during the seventh age.
The parable of the Minas is all about Satan's plan to enable his Good and Faithfull servants, with money, to obstruct and hinder the establishment of God's everlasting Kingdom being populated with "Righteous" people/souls, during the last age while Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years.
The Parable confirms this when the "so called wicked servant," tells his master that he is not entitled to the increase in the harvest to which the master agrees, but he informs the wicked servant that he wants the increase of souls anyway and sends the wicked servant into the outer darkness, from Satan's perspective, to protect the lies that he is propergating.
Shalom
The good servants were rewarded, proportional to their actions, to have authority over cities.
Satan is not mentioned in the parable. And it is not about money, but about time and energy in preparing for the the Kingdom of God to rule over the nations.
In Daniel 7, Jesus is given the Kingdom of Heaven, to be the Kingdom of God here on earth when Jesus returns to rule over the nations.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I could go on laying out all of the interpretation of Dan. 7:19-25, but it is just to long to do.
If you can entertain the factual idea that the "little horn", Antiochus lV Epiphanes, is already a part of Ancient history, and shall never come again, the only way that you shall know whether it is true or not, is to read, study and digest the detailed historical account of Israel in the books of 1&2 Maccabees. All of that took place during the 2300 day prophecy, in the time when the 3rd beast was in "the latter time of their kingdom", while the 4th Beast was the Roman Republic, and was still rising to become the Roman Empire in 27 BC.
1 Maccabees ch. 1 is a brief overview of the details that Israel suffered under, when they and their temple were trodden down by Antiochus IV- Epiphanes, the only "little horn" that shall ever be.
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With all due respect, you repeated your interpretation. These verses are rather clear in identifying the actors and timing - 4th kingdom. Perhaps you might take verse 19 and provide a brief description / interpretation?
Thanks.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Great, let’s move on to verse 20 and 21. What is happening, when, why, etc? Thanks
I agree with this statement, but the man who goes away for a time is definitely Satan.
If the parable is not about the servants being given money to trade with, then what was the purpose of Jesus telling this parable.
Douggg, once again you are not understanding what is written in the scriptures.
In the parable of the minas there are ten servants, one servant gets ten cities and another servant gets five cities. It doesn’t say if the servant that initially got the single pound would’ve gotten a city or not but it’s implied.
It’s safe to say that out of ten servants there are at least 23 cities to be given out. In the U.S.A. if we take all the incorporated cities the average population is approximately 10,000 people per city. Now if each “servant” gets on average 2.3 cities that makes on average 1 “servant” per 23,000 other people who aren’t “servants” that must be governed.
Currently it’s estimated worldwide that there are 2.4 billion people who identify as Christians with a total worldwide population of 8.2 billion. So currently for every 1 Christian there are about 2.5 non-Christians.
I’m just trying to understand what a future millennium looks like, if the millennium only has 1 believer for every 23,000 unbelievers it’s got to be a much worse off place than anything we are now experiencing. No wonder a rod of iron will be needed, it’s probably going to be like a giant prison with Jesus as the warden and believers as the prison guards.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
You are welcome.
Dan. 7
[20] And of the ten horns [in the vision] that were in his head, and of the other [LH] which came up [among them, but was not of them], and before whom [prior to the LH rising to power] three [horns] fell [the 2H Ram- Medio-Persia and the 1H Alex the Great of the Grecian Empire]; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows [the four Hellenistic generals].
[21] I beheld, and the same horn [LH] made war with the saints [OC. Israel], and prevailed against them [troddened down the host, aka the army of Israel];
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Thank you very much for your response! Well, I certainly agree with you the 4th kingdom beast that came out of the earth or the sea is indeed Rome. And I will make a point of identifying this 4th kingdom even further as 'pagan Rome." It was pagan Rome who would be ruing at the time of the Messiah, which of course, is the same time as the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - it would come to an end in 33/34 AD. Also, 40 years later, the Roman army under Titus would come to destroy everything - the city and the Temple and over 1 million people. Most importantly, after the cross, we will find the beginning of His church that would go preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus throughout this "pagan Roman Empire." The church was started by His disciples and would see tremendous growth, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles throughout the empire. It would not take long for the sheer numbers of Gentiles to dominate the number of Jews within this growing church, and if fact, it would not be very long when the church would be successful in removing any Jewish presence within the Christian church. This church would gain tremendous power and influence within the empire and it would become an acceptable religion by Constantine in the early 4th century. Around 50 years later, it would become the official religion of "pagan Rome." Then, around 476 AD, pagan Rome would no longer be the power / empire it once was and it would soon loose its power and authority over civil and religious matters. However, as "pagan Rome" was coming to its end (7:11), the Christian church, headed by perhaps no less than 4 or 5 powerful bishops within the empire (Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Constantinople), were fighing for power - which bishop / Christian center would rise to the top of this relatively new Christian church. This would come to a conclusion around the beginning of the 6th century when the bishop of Rome would be given complete authority and power over the church by the then emperor Justinian. Now, this bishop of Rome would be come to be known as the pope or the papacy and would soon take power over both religious and secular matters. It woiuld not look back and would grown "exceedingly great" (Daniel 8:9).
Nowm the reaons I am writing the above, is because it is the historical background where the verses in Chapter 7 will or should be applied. If you agree with this historical backdrop, can you consider how the verses in Daniel 7:19-20 and 7:23-25, fit perfectly wiithin this backdrop? In other words, can you easily identify the actors, events, timing within these verses to these same historial records?
Please ask me any questions that are needed to improve the presentation / comparison / approach to interpreting these verses in Daniel.
Thanks.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
I would include the dream of Neb's statue, which also describes the 4 beasts (and their four heads) being that of Babylon, Medio-Persia, the Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire.
From there, at the time of the Roman Empire, we should now pay attention to the symbolic two legs, of which reveals that the Roman Empire split/divided into two religious Empires: the Eastern Empire (Eastern Orthodox church) and the Western Empire (Roman Catholic church).
Scripture leads us to conclude that the ten toes on Neb's image of the 4th beast, is synonymous with the ten horns on the head of the 4th beast. If so, then the ten toes/horns apparently are militaristic, because for all time, they have not yet appeared visibly significant being grouped as ten countries on the world scene, that we know of. Today, we know them as Eastern Europe and Western Europe
However, we should ask: are they NOW members of NATO, but as of yet have not been appointed by the conglomerate beast of Rev., for their special operation of "burning the whore with fire"?
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In all of NT scripture, there are only two "covenants", and only two prophetic biblical "mothers" that are spoken of.
Concerning the mothers, one is fallen (and is "cast out"), which is Jerusalem that now is, being in bondage with her children, while the other is heavenly Jerusalem above and is free, being the mother of us all, who are of faith in Jesus. KJV Gal. 4:21-31.
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Well, thank you again for your interesting response. It appears we are not very far apart in our interpretations.... because the "foundations" of Daniel - the 4 kingdoms are indeed agreed. And I believe that is exactly why they were placed within God's prophecies.- to establish the formal structure of those kingdoms He decided to "call our" of the sea or the earth to reveal His prophecies. Because they are well known to all - whether it would be the Jews at the time of Christ and anytime after, we can all agree with the 4.I would include the dream of Neb's statue, which also describes the 4 beasts being that of Babylon, Medio-Persia, the Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire.
From there, at the time of the Roman Empire, we should now pay attention to the symbolic two legs, of which reveals that the Roman Empire split/divided into two religious Empires: the Eastern Empire (Eastern Orthodox church) and the Western Empire (Roman Catholic church).
Knowing that the Roman Empire split into two Empires, it's important to know today of how the feet and 10 toes of iron mixed with clay have ended up.
Scripture leads us to conclude that the ten toes on Neb's image of the 4th beast, is synonymous with the ten horns on the head of the 4th beast. If so, then the ten toes/horns apparently are militaristic, because for all time, they have not yet appeared visibly on the world scene, that we know of. Today, we know them as Eastern Europe and Western Europe
However, we should ask: are they NOW members of NATO, but as of yet have not been appointed for their special operation of "burning the whore with fire"?
One thing I was surprised to learn in your response, which I have not seen from ANYONE else on this forum or in my discussions with other folks interested in Daniel (or for that matter, ANY of today's accepted interpretations offered by the leading scholars, academics and theologians), is that you noticed / observed the 10 toes were FIRST found within the feet of the kingdom of pagan Rome. I was quite glad you mentioned this because this is one of the most important findings in Daniel that have been completed ignored.
Whether the two legs of the 4th beast represent the orthodox v. the RCC, or the some other "divisiojn" or "separate group" within the 4th kingdom, I do not know. But the important thing to consider is there WILL BE A DIVISION WITHIN THE 4TH BEAST KINGDOM (2:41). Now, in Chapter 2, Daniel does go into details discussing what this "divided" kingdom will look like - it is not specifically mentioned in Chapter 7 but Chapter 7 shows a different view of the "divided" kingdom. It is a divsion where it was once a purely military / secular 4th kingdom (pagan Rome) but it will become a different 4th kingdom AFTER (7:11). This is why I offered the narrative in the earlier response - the prophecies within Daniel mirror the actual / historical events that took place after the cross. But all of this is entirely due to the cross - nothing would have taken place if Jesus did not sacrirfice Himself for us. And, although you may not accept it at this time - no one has yet, the literal event of the crosss is represented in Daniel 2:34! The "Stone" would strike the "feet only" and separate the iron from the clay within the feet (verse 2:34 is His first coming and 2:35 is His return).
So, after 2:34, Daniel will reveal what will take place after the Messiah is crucified and what effect it would have on this 4th kingdom - or within this 4th kingdom as it applies to the clay (Jews) who are held captive withinj the pagan Roman empire (iron). Jesus did not come to wage war with Rome and free up His people. Instead, He would come to "divide" those OF HIS PEOPLE into two very different groups (found within 2:41-43). Those Jews, after the cross who would accept Jesus their Messiah, He would now refer to them as "pottery clay" because He would mold them to accept Him and spread the news throughout the empire. Those Jews who rejected Him, He would continue to refer to them as "ceramic clay," because their heart was as though it was hardened clay and they were not willing to accept Him as their Messiah.
So, your comment about brinjging in Chapter 2 is quite rigth - that is where this all begins - in Chapter 2, and it continues throughout the rest of the 12 chapters. So, in Chapter 7, God reveals the first 3 kingdoms as animals that mirror the same three in Chapter 2, but quickly moves on to the 4th kingdom. This is the kingdom where He will spend almost all of the coming verses in Daniel in.... because this is when He will arrive - during this 4th kingdom beast. He will arrive when it is known as "pagan Rome," He will start His church with the "pottery clay" identified in Chapter 2 who will go out into the world. There will still exist those Jews who will continue to reject Him (ceramic clay) and they will continue in their "pure / pre cross Jewish faith), and there will still be pagan Rome (iron) that will continue to "be" until it's eventual demise in the late 5th century / early 6th century AD.
So, if verse 2:34 is indeed the cross (and please try to think about this because it is 100 % certain), then, you can also agree that the Jews were in existence (at the end of the pagan Roman feet) BEFORE THE CROSS. You can also see that the 10 toes were also in existence BEFORE Stone struck the feet of the symbolic pagan Rome and broke free the clay from the iron pieces. Jesus did not come to destroy but to divide (everything does indeed tie together - all 12 chapters when we look for the Messiah within these prophecies - He is writing about Himself - His first coming DURING and WITHIN these 4 kingdoms).
So, when we get to Chapter 7, what do we now find? The 4th kingdom is symbolically shown as a unidentifiable beast. It is no longer the organized two legged iron pagan Rome of Chapter 2 - what has caused this change to the 4th kingdom? And notice the other 3 kingdoms did not change - they were shown as animals v metal body parts of a man, but there was absolutely no change in their "structure."
Now, in Chapter 7, we find an unidenfifiable 4th beast but iti now has 10 horns coming OUT OF IT, AND THEN ANOTHER LITTLE HORN ALSO COMING OUT OF IT BUT ONLY AFTER THE 10 HORNS ARE REVEALED. So, what has this "Stone" done to the 4th kingdom? The 10 toes who are no longer held captive within the iron feet of pagan Rome are now shown to have "come out" of pagan Rome and are now on the outside of the 4th kingdom beast - they have been freed from their captivity. Further, we see a completely new character that was not identified in Chapter 2 come out of pagan Rome in Chapter 7 - the little horn.
From this it is easy to conclude that God wants us to view the 10 toes (before the cross) as 10 horns (after the cross). And in prophetic language, these 10 horns mean they are 10 powers, that are now out in the pagan Rome empire (along with this little horn who will tag along at their heels - everywhere the10 go, this little horn will tag right behind).
So, I will stop here because that is so much to take it.... all of this took so long to discover..... Chapter 2 was one of the most difficult chapters to interpret - nothing like Chapter 11 (true monster), but I had to go back at least 100 times to try and interpret Chapter 2 because the rest of the Hebrew chapters made no sense... Almost all interperters threw the latter chapters into the end times --- but unless Chapter 2 is not interpreted this way, no other Chapter in Daniel will make true sense and everything will be end time interpretations.
So, before we move on, I would respectfully ask you or anyone reading this to ask questions or provide their comments on the above. If you simply want to tell me I am wrong and these are indeed end time events, do not bother - I have already heard them from you and I do not want to revisit your interpretations again..... sorry.
Look forward to your / anyone's thoughts on this...
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
I do understand what you are saying. I have always maintained the idea that Dan. 2:34 was about the cross of Jesus and him being the "stone" who began His Eternal kingdom at that time.
Dan. 2
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I trust that the Lord will continue helping me see these things more clearly, for I do not hold to the doctrines and wisdom of men, aka "church-ianity".
1 Cor. 2:[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [Authority] of God.
On a separate topic concerning this Christian site, I don't know about you, I must use my phone for all my posting here, but now I am inundated with distracting "business ads". If this site wan't bad enough, jumping around everytime I attempt to work on a reply post, now it's next to impossible, dodging the business advertisers!!
Sadly, I perceive that my long length of time being here may be coming to an end.
Earburner
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