attacking another denomination are included in this rule.

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
A good father doesn't burn their children for refusing a free gift.

You are using carnal reasoning of the carnal mind and need to seek the Lord for understanding, or perhaps to seek Him for the new birth at which time one receives the ability to understand spiritual things (subject to also growing in the Lord).

This is how FAR GONE Christians are.

I say "A good father doesn't burn their children..." and what I get in response is... "You are using carnal reasoning..."

If I had "spiritual" understanding, it would be obvious that a father that burns his children is doing the right thing,

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Kind of makes the plight of those who came before modern translations seem unenviable, at best.

:)

In too many cases the Bible has becomes a wall that prevents people from finding God at all.
They may be looking for God, but they find a printed page that leaves them in confusion.
So they go to the church to find out what it means. And we see the results right here.
They end up deifying a book and demonizing anyone that provides a different
interpretation than what their church gave them. What a mess.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
A good father doesn't burn their children for refusing a free gift.

This is how FAR GONE Christians are.

I say "A good father doesn't burn their children..." and what I get in response is... "You are using carnal reasoning..."

If I had "spiritual" understanding, it would be obvious that a father that burns his children is doing the right thing,

[

Oh you are quite right that a good father doesn't kill his children. But who are His children?.........those He has begotten by His Spirit. Children of the devil sadly are going to perish through their own fault.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, the only two options are "predestined for hell" or "obligated to grant eternal life to everyone?"

Sort of sounds like His thoughts aren't beyond understanding, after all. Just sayin'.

Seems to me that the "beyond understanding" claim is used to whitewash the very uncomfortable things they believe about God.

--- PARODY ---

Skeptic: "Everyone is "predestined for hell?" --
Believer: "Well, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways beyond understanding."
Skeptic: "Maybe we got it all wrong then. Should the gospel be incomprehensible?"
Believer: "You are using carnal understanding. God had a good reason to predestine everyone to hell."
Skeptic: "Like what?"
Believer: I just told you. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways beyond finding out."
Skeptic: "I guess we are in agreement on that point.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

In too many cases the Bible has becomes a wall that prevents people from finding God at all.
They may be looking for God, but they find a printed page that leaves them in confusion.
So they go to the church to find out what it means. And we see the results right here.
They end up deifying a book and demonizing anyone that provides a different
interpretation than what their church gave them. What a mess.

[

Funny, that isn't what the scriptures say about themselves, which were inspired by God Himself. Since they are able to make one wise unto salvation, that sure doesn't sound like it prevents people from finding God. And since they are profitable.

But this at least explains why you don't seem to know the bible at all and talk strange things that the bible doesn't teach. Essentially making up your own religion. Which means either you have fallen away from the faith that Jesus is the author of, or that you have never known it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Oh you are quite right that a good father doesn't kill his children. But who are His children?.........those He has begotten by His Spirit. Children of the devil sadly are going to perish through their own fault.

So... you would be okay with a stepfather burning his children, since they aren't really his. ???

[

 

[St. SteVen]

But this at least explains why you don't seem to know the bible at all...

LOL

Right. If I disagree with you, it must be because I don't know the bible at all. - LOL

Get real.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

... this at least explains why you don't seem to know the bible at all and talk strange things that the bible doesn't teach.

More likely I talk about things the Bible does teach, but the church has tried to cover-up.
I'm a whistle-blower. Pointing out the terrible teachings of the church that they claim are biblical.
Stuff you gobble up as if there is no problem.

Burning children? "No problem, as long as they aren't REALLY your children." Seriously?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

But this at least explains why you don't seem to know the bible at all and talk strange things that the bible doesn't teach. Essentially making up your own religion. Which means either you have fallen away from the faith that Jesus is the author of, or that you have never known it.

Who are you to judge me?
I'm a supporting member in good standing of the local church.

Have you found a church yet? Nope.
Who's child are you? You seem to have orphaned yourself.
Walked away, or fallen away?
Got out of the kitchen since you couldn't take the heat?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Should you force your children to attend church against their will?

[

 

[amadeus]

In too many cases the Bible has becomes a wall that prevents people from finding God at all.
They may be looking for God, but they find a printed page that leaves them in confusion.
So they go to the church to find out what it means. And we see the results right here.
They end up deifying a book and demonizing anyone that provides a different
interpretation than what their church gave them. What a mess.

[

To a degree in a certain way you may be correct, but remember this:

Mt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

If they are truly hungering and thirsting after the righteousness which God offers, will He not fill them?

 

[BarneyFife]

Seems to me that the "beyond understanding" claim is used to whitewash the very uncomfortable things they believe about God.

I couldn't agree more, my Friend.

I just don't equate 'very uncomfortable' with 'inconceivable.'

For me, personally, eternal torment goes far beyond being very uncomfortable.

But receiving one's own just reward—and no more—as a result of ultimately rejecting pardon and empowerment just seems like respecting freedom of choice to me.

In too many cases the Bible has becomes a wall that prevents people from finding God at all.
They may be looking for God, but they find a printed page that leaves them in confusion.
So they go to the church to find out what it means. And we see the results right here.
They end up deifying a book and demonizing anyone that provides a different
interpretation than what their church gave them. What a mess.

In all honesty, until I met you, I never encountered anyone who objected to the administration of justice I outlined above (if, in fact, you do) except, of course, for Christians who insist with surprising intensity that only a ceaseless eternity of torture and suffering meted out to the decliners of His grace and mercy can bring about the glory of a loving God.

I couldn't count the number of folks who've testified to me that their general skepticism of religion was overcome by the annihilationist understanding of the teaching of the final disposition of sin and unrepentant sinners. I've seen it in action. And it can be taught quite clearly and charitably from the Bible.

On the other hand, so many of even the most studious and thoughtful of Bible scholars object to UR (if I'm understanding and characterizing it correctly), feeling that it reduces the experience of our current trials and physical separation from God to a cruel, inexplicable joke on His part.

If we're all destined to be redeemed without meaningful qualification, what is the point of allowing so much sin and suffering to go on in the interim in which we find ourselves? And what does this say about the character of God? Frankly, it makes me more than 'very uncomfortable.'—nearly as much, in fact, as hyper-Calvinism does. This is very direct and pointed, to be sure, but I'm just being as honest as I hope anyone would be with me here.

Who are you to judge me?
I'm a supporting member in good standing of the local church.

As usual, I don't like the way you're being treated here.

The problem is:
Getting bogged down in a defense is a more-than-merely-potential fruitless distraction, I fear.

I don't think it's helpful at all to throw around "carnal thinking" (read: "You're unregenerate.") judgments. Who has the properly calibrated gage for such a thing? It's just "sounding brass/tinkling cymbal"-grade noise, in the final analysis. I've never been in a situation where that kind of talk resulted in anything good.

:)

 

[St. SteVen]

I couldn't count the number of folks who've testified to me that their general skepticism of religion was overcome by the annihilationist understanding of the teaching of the final disposition of sin and unrepentant sinners. I've seen it in action. And it can be taught quite clearly and charitably from the Bible.

On occasion I warn them.
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

On the other hand, so many of even the most studious and thoughtful of Bible scholars object to UR (if I'm understanding and characterizing it correctly), feeling that it reduces the experience of our current trials and physical separation from God to a cruel, inexplicable joke on His part.

If we're all destined to be redeemed without meaningful qualification, what is the point of allowing so much sin and suffering to go on in the interim in which we find ourselves? And what does this say about the character of God? Frankly, it makes me more than 'very uncomfortable.'—nearly as much, in fact, as hyper-Calvinism does. This is very direct and pointed, to be sure, but I'm just being as honest as I hope anyone would be with me here.

These are interesting points. Thank you.

This is why I speak up about Universal Redemption. There are so many misunderstandings about it.
The assumption in the current trials and physical separation from God concern suggests that UR should remove that aspect.
As if to say, "If everyone is already saved, why do we have to suffer through life?" Valid question.

It seems to me that none of the three doctrines of the final judgement will erase that problem.
But I can see why some might question UR on that basis.

UR certainly isn't a preventive measure to current trials we all face. In fact, these things are a test.
Some seem to have the idea that UR should be an off-ramp directly to heaven. Nope.

The complete work of the Atonement means that in-the-end-result everyone will be saved.
Because they already are technically. But EVERYONE will face evaluation/judgment/correction/restoration/redemption.
Every person, every leader (government/religious), every nation. There needs to be healing in all these relationships.

[

 

[BarneyFife]

On occasion I warn them.
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

As someone who is frequently surrounded by annihilationists of the Adventist variety, I can assure you that for over 160 years, within that framework, such a risk has proven to be virtually non-existent.

The assumption in the current trials and physical separation from God concern suggests that UR should remove that aspect.
As if to say, "If everyone is already saved, why do we have to suffer through life?" Valid question.

It seems to me that none of the three doctrines of the final judgement will erase that problem.

This would be a great argument if anyone was insisting on removal or erasure of the trial/separation aspect, but that's part of the atheist perspective, who want either a removal or an explanation. Non-atheist objectors only want an explanation. And it should be a fair enough request, considering it pertains to the character of God, which is of virtually ultimate concern to adherents of UR, and rightly so.

UR certainly isn't a preventive measure to current trials we all face. In fact, these things are a test.

Which begs the question:

What is the point of the test?

And, to say that it's simply a matter of faith might be seen by some as a slightly false balance, since complete and final punishment with a definite termination point could be argued to be comparable to thousands of years of Earth's suffering as a whole.

Much more could be said about this.

Some seem to have the idea that UR should be an off-ramp directly to heaven. Nope.

I'm afraid this is little more than a straw man, my Friend. I'm trying to address UR on its own individual merits, or a lack thereof—not with sweeping generalizations.

Atonement means that in-the-end-result everyone will be saved.
Because they already are technically. But EVERYONE will face evaluation/judgment/correction/restoration/redemption

Yeah, and unfortunately for many, against their will, it would seem.

Do you really want to go down the forensic justification rabbit hole? That seems like another subject—not that we're not already WAY off-topic - lol.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
On occasion I warn them.
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

As someone who is frequently surrounded by annihilationists of the Adventist variety, I can assure you that for over 160 years, within that framework, such a risk has proven to be virtually non-existent.

I guess I was seeing it as a step away from Damnationism. (ECT)
Annihilationism would be one step away from UR.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
UR certainly isn't a preventive measure to current trials we all face. In fact, these things are a test.

What is the point of the test?

The same as with the other two doctrines of the final judgment, I suppose.

James 1:2-3 NIV
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Atonement means that in-the-end-result everyone will be saved.
Because they already are technically. But EVERYONE will face evaluation/judgment/correction/restoration/redemption

Yeah, and unfortunately for many, against their will, it would seem.

Why would that be unfortunate? Who wouldn't want to be restored and redeemed?

[

 

[BarneyFife]

St. SteVen said:
Atonement means that in-the-end-result everyone will be saved.
Because they already are technically. But EVERYONE will face evaluation/judgment/correction/restoration/redemption

Why would that be unfortunate? Who wouldn't want to be restored and redeemed?

[

The devil, maybe?

He's got an awful lot invested in absolute rebellion.

Of course, if one is inclined to see Satan as a mythical creature of allegorical nature, I guess my point is a likely candidate for the moot bin.

:)

 

[amigo de christo]

The devil, maybe?

He's got an awful lot invested in absolute rebellion.

Of course, if one is inclined to see Satan as a mythical creature of allegorical nature, I guess my point is a likely candidate for the moot bin.

:)

The devil and his angels KNOW they are DOOMED . they know with no doubt ITS TOO LATE FOR THEM .
As even the demons in the legion cried to CHRIST , HAVE YOU COME TO TORMENT US , BEFORE THE TIME .
THEY know they damned friend .
SO they gonna take anyone and everyone they can down with them to peridition .
THAT is why that which is of anti christ has come with a love gospel that will save none but damn all .
AND YOU better beware it , I better beware it , WE ALL better beware it . cause satan CAN quaote scrip .
HE CAN SAY GOD IS LOVE , HE , and his men , can say GOD desires the death of none , WHICH TRUTH THAT IS
but will use that truth to support DEATH . DID You catch that MR FIFE .
IF ANY uses scripture to support death HEED THEM NOT .
UNBELIEF IS DEATH . so how should we use scrip , TO JUSTIFY SCRIP , TO POINT TO LIFE and not to death .
SO now lets invesetage this big ol broad road path , this lovey do dung pile i see most embracing .
THEY TOO SAY GOD IS LOVE , THEY TOO SAY HE DESIRES THE DEATH OF NONE
but then use that truth to point to death . HOW SO , they make it seem that just because GOD IS LOVE
and desires not the death of any , THAT MEANS NONE WILL PERISH .
WANNA FAT PURE AND HOLY EXAMPLE OF HOW TO ACTUALLY USE THEM SCRIPTURES .
GOOD . i will tell you .
GOD IS LOVE , GOD DOES DESIRE THE DEATH OF NONE , IT IS WHY , WHY , WHY , HE SENT THE SON
so that all who do BELIEVE BELEIVE BELIEVE IN HIM would not PERISH but have everlasting life .
AND JESUS IS NOT THE MINSTIR of anyone sins either . that too is death to preach such a thing .
SO now you have the example of the love of the world whcih points to death
and an example of the LOVE of GOD that points to LIFE , aka tO JESUS THE CHRIST . hate away on me folks all day if you like ,
for i shall not bend the knee to satans false inclusive love that points to and leads to the second death .
BIBLE TIME folks .

 

[amigo de christo]

St. SteVen said:
Atonement means that in-the-end-result everyone will be saved.
Because they already are technically. But EVERYONE will face evaluation/judgment/correction/restoration/redemption

Why would that be unfortunate? Who wouldn't want to be restored and redeemed?

[

have you come to torment us before the time . cried the demons in the legion .
HEY bud , they KNOW THEY DAMNED , THEY KNOW the DAY OF JUDGMENT awaits them in which they all
will be cast alive into the fiercest and most terrible place of utter and upmost destructoin .
SO they are gonna take down any and all with them to that there PERDITION
pit by preaching a false all inclusive social interfaith gospel . cause satan has always desired the death of humanity
its why he did as he did and said as he said to Eve
and its now why he preaches that which is of anti christ through men
to cause all to beleive in a love NOT OF GOD
so all will join him and his demons in HELLS MOST FIERCE FLAMES . TIME TO POINT TO LIFE and LIFE ETERNAL steven
and stop pointing to death .