It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[MA2444]

How about discussing Scripture, like you promised. I am waiting!

So you wnt enen approach the scripture that I did post and it doesnt sound like you even read it.

So I'm left wondering, is it that you are blind to the words of God? Or that, you have a different agenda altogether?

You say, post scripture post scripture post scripture...Then when I do you wont talk about it at all. You simply declare pre trib to be wrong and ask for more scriptures.

Yeah, I'm dont posting scripturs for you because you always have the same response.

You seem to be more wound up in putting people down that you are about actually finding out the truth. So it's complicated, the Lord wrote it like that so dont call me a liar.

Post me a single verse which explains nuclear fission in it's entirety.
You cant? Oh then nuclear fission is a lie then? You poor man.

 

[WPM]

So you wnt enen approach the scripture that I did post and it doesnt sound like you even read it.

So I'm left wondering, is it that you are blind to the words of God? Or that, you have a different agenda altogether?

You say, post scripture post scripture post scripture...Then when I do you wont talk about it at all. You simply declare pre trib to be wrong and ask for more scriptures.

Yeah, I'm dont posting scripturs for you because you always have the same response.

You seem to be more wound up in putting people down that you are about actually finding out the truth. So it's complicated, the Lord wrote it like that so dont call me a liar.

Post me a single verse which explains nuclear fission in it's entirety.
You cant? Oh then nuclear fission is a lie then? You poor man.

Where is that biblical post?

 

[MA2444]

Where is that biblical post?

Yeah, I'm dont posting scripturs for you because you always have the same response.

 

[WPM]

Pretrib has nothing. Why would Pretribbers engage when they have nothing to bring to the table? Your avoidance reinforces that reality.

 

[MA2444]

Pretrib has nothing. Why would Pretribbers engage when they have nothing to bring to the table? Your avoidance reinforces that reality.

Say what? I posted scripture for you and I'm sure you read it...but you didnt respond to it and here you are again saying there's no scriptures.

You avoided what I posted. I didnt avoid anything.

 

[WPM]

Say what? I posted scripture for you and I'm sure you read it...but you didnt respond to it and here you are again saying there's no scriptures.

You avoided what I posted. I didnt avoid anything.

If you're indeed right, then give me the post on this thread, since you agreed to address Scripture without ad hominem. I have not seen it. Then, be willing to discuss it.

 

[MA2444]

If you're indeed right, then give me the post on this thread, since you agreed to address Scripture without ad hominem. I have not seen it. Then, be willing to discuss it.

Been there done that got the T-Shirt! Go find it yourself. No deal.

 

[WPM]

Been there done that got the T-Shirt! Go find it yourself. No deal.

Checkmate!

Now you know why many of us abandoned Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is a Jesuit deception.

 

[MA2444]

Checkmate!

Now you know why many of us abandoned Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is a Jesuit deception.

Oh it is not extrabiblical. Nor a deception.

 

[Keraz]

Oh it is not extrabiblical. Nor a deception.

The nature of deception, is that the deceived person does not know it.

A rapture to heaven of the Church is the prevalent belief of the Western Christians today. This is very unfortunate as when it doesn’t happen, many may lose their faith.
The ‘rapture’ is a belief based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork:

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.
1/ Such an idea is not stated in the Bible.
2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times and how we must endure until the end.
5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
6/ Jesus said that we Christians could be deceived. He was right!
7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will turn to fables and listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.

God has given us the information so we know His Plans for the end times, great Promises of protection and Blessings to His people as they stand firm in their faith, as they go thru all that must happen and welcome Jesus when He Returns.

 

[MA2444]

The nature of deception, is that the deceived person does not know it.

A rapture to heaven of the Church is the prevalent belief of the Western Christians today. This is very unfortunate as when it doesn’t happen, many may lose their faith.
The ‘rapture’ is a belief based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork:

I'm not going to lose my faith. Even if I happen to be wrong about pretrib (which isnt likely) but no one knows the date or hour...We still know that to die is to gain like Paul said. So there really isnt any death for Belivers at least.

If I'm going to be in error, it will be on the side of faith and what would Jesus do to me for looking for Him sooner rather than later? Nothing, that's what He tells us to do in scripture.

 

[Keraz]

I'm not going to lose my faith. Even if I happen to be wrong about pretrib (which isnt likely) but no one knows the date or hour...We still know that to die is to gain like Paul said. So there really isnt any death for Belivers at least.

If I'm going to be in error, it will be on the side of faith and what would Jesus do to me for looking for Him sooner rather than later? Nothing, that's what He tells us to do in scripture.

Good; keep your faith, thru whatever happens.

Promises to His people:
Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a fiery wind has gone out from the Lord. A whirlwind that sweeps around the heads of the wicked, the Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purpose.

Jeremiah 30:4-7 This is what the Lord says to Israel and Judah: We have heard a cry of terror, of fear without relief, every face turns pale. How awful is that Day, there has been none like it. It is a time of anguish for Jacob, yet he will come through it safely.
This describes the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, in the near future. It will clear the way for His people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, to gather and settle in the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy land. Isaiah 62:1-5

Jeremiah 30:1-3 The Lord God of Israel, tells Jeremiah to write His words: The time is coming, when I shall restore the fortunes of My people, both Judah and Israel, and bring them back to take possession of the Land which I gave to their ancestors.

Jeremiah 30:8-22 In that Day, I shall break the yoke of servitude off their necks, they will serve only Me and David, their King, raised up for them. Do not be afraid, Israel, My servants, for I shall bring you back safe from afar, all your posterity from the lands where they are now. You will be at rest once more, secure and untroubled, for I am with you, to save you. The nations will be punished and you too, will be disciplined as you deserve.

Israel and Judah were punished for their sins by exile among the nations. Yet all who despoiled you will themselves be despoiled, I will heal your wounds.
The Lord says: I shall restore the fortunes of all Israel and show my love for his dwellings. Cities and houses will be rebuilt where they once were. From them, praise and merrymaking will be heard. My people will increase and be honoured, their oppressors will be punished.

A ruler will appear, one of themselves, Hosea 1:11, a governor will arise from among them. I will bring him near and let him approach Me. So you will be My people and I shall be your God. Ref: REB. Verses abridged.

Jeremiah 30:24b In days to come, you will understand.

These wonderful promises to His servants, all of the Christian peoples, all grafted into the Tree that is Jesus – their heritage regenerated, brought back safely from afar, to take possession of their Land, secure and untroubled, cities and houses rebuilt, they will increase and be honoured.
It is not hard to imagine, the ‘praise and merrymaking’ of His people after such amazing promises are fulfilled.

The King mentioned in Jeremiah 30:9 will be Jesus, after His Return. But, before the Return, ‘a leader will appear, one of themselves’, he will be able to approach the Lord in the same way as Moses and David did, so long ago.

All the Lord’s righteous people, will live in peace and prosperity in the Land of Greater Israel, the new country of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, after the clearance brought about by the Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 7:1-8

 

[Davy]

I'm not going to lose my faith. Even if I happen to be wrong about pretrib (which isnt likely) but no one knows the date or hour...We still know that to die is to gain like Paul said. So there really isnt any death for Belivers at least.

If I'm going to be in error, it will be on the side of faith and what would Jesus do to me for looking for Him sooner rather than later? Nothing, that's what He tells us to do in scripture.

I have to say it, because I have studied Lord Jesus' warning SIGNS He gave His faithful servants about the end.

If you don't know Jesus' warning SIGNS in His Olivet discourse leading up to His future return, then you could easily be deceived. Why?

Because one of the main SIGNS of the end Jesus said was the coming of a false-Christ claiming to be Him, WITH THE POWER OF MIRACLES TO DECEIVE THE WHOLE WORLD. Jesus was not just pointing to the "many antichrists" that come claiming to be Christ with no power of miracles. He was pointing to a SPECIFIC false-Christ coming for the time of "great tribulation" that will deceive the MAJORITY of the world by the great signs, wonders, and miracles he will have power to do...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

True!

I assume you are just agreeing with him that one can be deceived if they are not familiar with the signs before His second coming and you are not agreeing with his claims about a future individual false-Christ?

 

[Davy]

I assume you are just agreeing with him that one can be deceived if they are not familiar with the signs before His second coming and you are not agreeing with his claims about a future individual false-Christ?

Why wouldn't he agree about the coming of the pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned about in His Olivet discourse for the coming "great tribulation"?

I think I know why you don't agree, because you are Jewish maybe, and you don't like any idea about a false-Messiah coming to deceive the majority of the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for the end? Is that it?

Jesus warned His servants in the countries to NOT ENTER INTO JERUSALEM when the "abomination of desolation" IDOL is setup in a Jewish temple there in Jerusalem for the end.

 

[WPM]

I assume you are just agreeing with him that one can be deceived if they are not familiar with the signs before His second coming and you are not agreeing with his claims about a future individual false-Christ?

Yes. LOL. I believe antichrist is a spirit that will operate through an evil global system and could manifest through a global leader or leaders.

 

[WPM]

I assume you are just agreeing with him that one can be deceived if they are not familiar with the signs before His second coming and you are not agreeing with his claims about a future individual false-Christ?

I deleted my post in order to remove any ambiguity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why wouldn't he agree about the coming of the pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned about in His Olivet discourse for the coming "great tribulation"?

I know what he believes and I've never seen him indicate that he believes in that before. Scripture does not teach this.

I think I know why you don't agree, because you are Jewish maybe, and you don't like any idea about a false-Messiah coming to deceive the majority of the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for the end? Is that it?

No, not at all. Don't waste your time trying to speculate about why I believe what I do. You only end up making a fool of yourself. Just ask me if you don't know. I don't believe in that because I don't see it taught anywhere in scripture. There are many antichrists, not just one. John taught that anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist and all have that spirit of antichrist that they heard was coming and was already in the world at that time back then when John wrote 1st and 2nd John.

Jesus warned His servants in the countries to NOT ENTER INTO JERUSALEM when the "abomination of desolation" IDOL is setup in a Jewish temple there in Jerusalem for the end.

I don't share your understanding of this at all. Matthew 24:15-22 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24a) was fulfilled in 70 AD. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked both about what would happen in relation to the temple buildings being destroyed, as He said they would be, and about His future second coming at the end of the age.

 

[MA2444]

I have to say it, because I have studied Lord Jesus' warning SIGNS He gave His faithful servants about the end.

If you don't know Jesus' warning SIGNS in His Olivet discourse leading up to His future return, then you could easily be deceived. Why?

Because one of the main SIGNS of the end Jesus said was the coming of a false-Christ claiming to be Him, WITH THE POWER OF MIRACLES TO DECEIVE THE WHOLE WORLD. Jesus was not just pointing to the "many antichrists" that come claiming to be Christ with no power of miracles. He was pointing to a SPECIFIC false-Christ coming for the time of "great tribulation" that will deceive the MAJORITY of the world by the great signs, wonders, and miracles he will have power to do...

I seem to be having some trouble understanding how Jesus warnings relate to believing in a pre trib rapture. I'm going on the understanding of Matthew 24:42-44

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.../KJV

If you read more in that chapter He is clearly talking about the rapture. And no one except the father knows the date or hour. So no prophecies need to be fulfilled before the rapture occurs. And scripture maps out the exact day of the 2nd coming. So it cant be both rapture and 2nd coming happen at the same time, other wise we would know the date and hour of the rapture.

So it has to be two events. Unless you can explain what I am missing?

 

[MA2444]

Jesus has been saying for 2000 years, soon...and to watch and be ready. So where is the harm (or deception) in watching for Jesus now instead of after the great trib?

Is Jesus going to punish me for looking for Him sooner than you post trib guys? (Scripture?)